A brief comparison of the turnarounds on O and on D, plus a question...

[Rams43]

The O turnaround is rather simple and obvious.

The O received the lion’s share of attention via draft and FA in ‘17. As a result, in the very first year we saw an historic turnaround from worst to first. It was was beyond thorough and dramatic. So complete that only adding Cooks was deemed necessary among the starters for ‘18. They are currently among the top 3 O’s in the entire league and mere tweaking is anticipated next offseason. This O is flat lethal.

But the D has not enjoyed near the complete turnaround, has it? Despite Wade’s reputation and being the beneficiary of the lions share of incoming elite type players such as Suh, Peters, Talib, and maybe Shields. Our edge players of Ebu (until the Chiefs game) and Longacre were glaring weaknesses. Barron seems but a shadow of his former self. Talib’s injury was a significant hit and Peters has hardly been an elite type CB, as expected. Nobody has been thrilled with Joyner’s play, either. Our D has been fairly easy to run on and pass against. And do I need to mention our recent scoring D? Hardly striking fear into the heart of opposing QB’s or DC’s, as we had anticipated.

So, what to think?

We have star players sprinkled throughout this D, no question, but other than AD, Littleton, NRC, and maybe Ebu, the remaining D players don’t seem to be playing as a cohesive unit. And we are preparing for our 12th game!

I’m just gonna ask it. I wonder which of two possible things is the issue.

Is it that Wade’s “system” doesn’t quite fit 2018 football type Offenses anymore? A square peg in a round hole kinda thing?

Or, is it that the various players brought in for Wade’s 2018 D simply not suited for each other? To still have run D and pass D problems at this late date seems puzzling, to say the least. Woulda thought that the experienced Wade would have better solved both issues by now, given the talent on this D roster. Put another way, has Wade lost his fastball?

Again, I keep asking myself this question. Why would the young and relatively inexperienced McVay be able to accomplish such a complete first year turnaround while the revered and vastly experienced Wade Phillips is still struggling late into his second season?

What am I missing here? I would really appreciate any and all thoughts by other posters on this topic.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Faceplant]

Great post. You may be onto something with regards to Wade losing his fastball. The offenses have changed dramatically in the last 2 years, and I am not sure uncle Wade has been able to adjust as quickly as he would like. Well.... He definitely hasn't. I still have faith that these guys will show up down the stretch. This team plays for each other. The D knows they need to start pulling their weight. They don't want to be the unit that screws up a magical season.

 

[dang]

Some of the struggles are obvious and some are mysterious.
The obvious:
- 6 new starters/7 if you count Wilson starting for Barron for first 4 games
- 4 new LB starters at start of season/with little starter experience between them
- Injuries to both starting CBs which may not remedied until the end of the regular season
The mysterious:
- Regression of the formerly aggressive Joyner; could it be he is being cautious to save himself for his next contract
- Peters inability to stick with receivers; some of which may be attributed to his injury
- Barron just cannot find a position that can effectively leverage his skills
- Last but most frustrating is the inability of our LBs and DBs to tackle; we have to lead the league in missed tackles sometimes 2-3 misses on a single play

 

[Ramstien]

I think the problem is the talent level of some of these defensive players that have played well in the past are simply not living up to exceptions. It is too late in the season to make any major changes but look for 3 or 4 of these starters to be replaced this off season.

 

[Ram65]

Is it that Wade’s “system” doesn’t quite fit 2018 football type Offenses anymore? A square peg in a round hole kinda thing?

Spitballing here of course.

The poor run defense makes everything more difficult. Wade has to put JJ up closer to line to help out. That leaves Joyner deep which most QBs can look him off and make plays down field.

Why poor run defense?

Is it because they Lbers are to small? Probably a part of it. I'm not sure that the D Line is winning the battle against the run. Having only three down lineman even Donald, Suh and Brockers makes it easier to open holes for running backs. Donald makes a move to the outside shoulder of the guard with Suh getting double teamed opens a big hole in the middle. They can double Brockers and run his way too. I don't know if Brockers would have been better off staying in the middle with keeping the weight he lost. That leads us to the LBers. I wonder if they are reacting fast enough. Seems like they are bit slow to fill the gap and the running back makes a cut and is off to the sideline with space. They may get close but, aren't in position to make tackles. One thing for sure the OLBer defenders don't cover the edges. They pursue upfield too often. Wilson had the edges open all game long in the last Hags game.

Loose pass coverage?

The Cowboys covered the Saints WRs/RBs tightly. The Rams were a little looser in coverage. Makes it much easier to complete passes. Talib can help here. Peters wasn't bad in coverage of Thomas (except the last TD). He got called early for a couple ticky tack holding penalties which I think got in his head. You can see him complaining to the official. Thomas did push off too. Hopefully, nearing the playoffs the officials let defenses be more physical like they did with the Cowboys. Having only Joyner deep doesn't allow for much room for mistakes by the DBs. Still think the Rams need to cover and play more physical against WRs. They also have to tackle the RBs and WRs right away.

The defense isn't going to be great. They need to step up on 3rd downs! They need to bring it to stop the run. Tighter more physical coverage can help the pass rush. Over more physical and discipline approach could make them good enough.

 

[Karate61]

As a quick note, the D seems to have the same issues this year as last year, with different players. That may indicate the system, not the players.

 

[majrleaged]

Spitballing here of course.

The poor run defense makes everything more difficult. Wade has to put JJ up closer to line to help out. That leaves Joyner deep which most QBs can look him off and make plays down field.

Why poor run defense?

Is it because they Lbers are to small? Probably a part of it. I'm not sure that the D Line is winning the battle against the run. Having only three down lineman even Donald, Suh and Brockers makes it easier to open holes for running backs. Donald makes a move to the outside shoulder of the guard with Suh getting double teamed opens a big hole in the middle. They can double Brockers and run his way too. I don't know if Brockers would have been better off staying in the middle with keeping the weight he lost. That leads us to the LBers. I wonder if they are reacting fast enough. Seems like they are bit slow to fill the gap and the running back makes a cut and is off to the sideline with space. They may get close but, aren't in position to make tackles. One thing for sure the OLBer defenders don't cover the edges. They pursue upfield too often. Wilson had the edges open all game long in the last Hags game.

Loose pass coverage?

The Cowboys covered the Saints WRs/RBs tightly. The Rams were a little looser in coverage. Makes it much easier to complete passes. Talib can help here. Peters wasn't bad in coverage of Thomas (except the last TD). He got called early for a couple ticky tack holding penalties which I think got in his head. You can see him complaining to the official. Thomas did push off too. Hopefully, nearing the playoffs the officials let defenses be more physical like they did with the Cowboys. Having only Joyner deep doesn't allow for much room for mistakes by the DBs. Still think the Rams need to cover and play more physical against WRs. They also have to tackle the RBs and WRs right away.

The defense isn't going to be great. They need to step up on 3rd downs! They need to bring it to stop the run. Tighter more physical coverage can help the pass rush. Over more physical and discipline approach could make them good enough.

I agree with all of this.

 

[BonifayRam]

I do not believe that Wade's D is trending toward the retirement home for NFL past great defenses. It's just plain reality of events taking place in a season that kills much of what was planned before the 2018 season began. The bad health of several key starters that were being depended apon on early did not recover. Most of this we have covered well & we have identified our issues.

List our two biggest problems of the D:

#1- LB'er Mark Barron who as the tackling leader for the Rams for 2 back to back 15/16 seasons was injured early in 2017 & continued to play through a serious shoulder injury followed by an inflamed & painfull bones spurs of the Achilles Both surgeries have left him as a shell of his past self. Barron plays one of the play making positions for this Wade D. This position is now KNOWN liability for opponents to take aim & attack by run or pass. Its will not get better.

#2-FS Lamarcus Joyner, who has been a hard tackling demon since he was drafted LJ didsplayed being in the right position to make a play on the ball & showing great versatility to play multiple position very good now in his 2nd season as a starter is in "Total Fail Mode" in this Wade D. Always late to tackle to the ball, in air & ultra slow to read & breakdown the easiest offensive snaps. LJ is MIA for Wade & the Rams defense this season.

At the OLB'er positions alone it's been a series bad news after another. The back surgery & TC bicep injury left starting OLB Longacre slow & non effective in a starting role. The ACL injuries IR of OLB'ers Morgan Fox & Dom Easley took away the remaining veteran depth @ that position. In addition early OTA broken foot of top drafted pass rusher rookie Okoronwko IR has yet to contribute. Leaving only one healthy OLB'er with any playing experience. Very late 3rd day drafted rookie OLB'er Young & lawler have had very liitle impact.

Unlike the LB'er unit the DL front has remained without injury but the unit has been drunk on Lucas Anti-Gel fluid since the season began. This All Star starting trio have permitted RB's to run free flowing with no plugging taking place. DL Coach Johnson will need a very indepth review when this season is concluded. The key elements as lineup do not blend well.

Much like the DL this DB has experienced only 1 injury since the season began. Rams have 2 pro bowl starting corners, One of the top Nickels in the NFL, the highest paid veteran FS in the NFL, the 4th corner is a former all pro veteran & a young budding future star @ SS. Like the the DL cadre this secondary is in need of some serious nut & bolt tightening.Coverage breakdowns are the norm. CB Safety & Corner coaches Pleasant & Evero have failed to get the most of an elite group of DB's assembled.

 

[TheTackle]

I do not believe that Wade's D is trending toward the retirement home for NFL past great defenses. It's just plain reality of events taking place in a season that kills much of what was planned before the 2018 season began. The bad health of several key starters that were being depended apon on early did not recover. Most of this we have covered well & we have identified our issues.

List our two biggest problems of the D:

#1- LB'er Mark Barron who as the tackling leader for the Rams for 2 back to back 15/16 seasons was injured early in 2017 & continued to play through a serious shoulder injury followed by an inflamed & painfull bones spurs of the Achilles Both surgeries have left him as a shell of his past self. Barron plays one of the play making positions for this Wade D. This position is now KNOWN liability for opponents to take aim & attack by run or pass. Its will not get better.

#2-FS Lamarcus Joyner, who has been a hard tackling demon since he was drafted LJ didsplayed being in the right position to make a play on the ball & showing great versatility to play multiple position very good now in his 2nd season as a starter is in "Total Fail Mode" in this Wade D. Always late to tackle to the ball, in air & ultra slow to read & breakdown the easiest offensive snaps. LJ is MIA for Wade & the Rams defense this season.

At the OLB'er positions alone it's been a series bad news after another. The back surgery & TC bicep injury left starting OLB Longacre slow & non effective in a starting role. The ACL injuries IR of OLB'ers Morgan Fox & Dom Easley took away the remaining veteran depth @ that position. In addition early OTA broken foot of top drafted pass rusher rookie Okoronwko IR has yet to contribute. Leaving only one healthy OLB'er with any playing experience. Very late 3rd day drafted rookie OLB'er Young & lawler have had very liitle impact.

Unlike the LB'er unit the DL front has remained without injury but the unit has been drunk on Lucas Anti-Gel fluid since the season began. This All Star starting trio have permitted RB's to run free flowing with no plugging taking place. DL Coach Johnson will need a very indepth review when this season is concluded. The key elements as lineup do not blend well.

Much like the DL this DB has experienced only 1 injury since the season began. Rams have 2 pro bowl starting corners, One of the top Nickels in the NFL, the highest paid veteran FS in the NFL, the 4th corner is a former all pro veteran & a young budding future star @ SS. Like the the DL cadre this secondary is in need of some serious nut & bolt tightening.Coverage breakdowns are the norm. CB Safety & Corner coaches Pleasant & Evero have failed to get the most of an elite group of DB's assembled.

Agreed. Yet, we have and can fix some of these issues. Talib is back and him and Peters looked great through the first games - against some very good offences. Fowler is a huge improvement and has two weeks to prepare and rest of season to learn system (I was surprised by how many snaps he took - but, they are clearly getting him ready for playoffs). Samson, has the light come on? If the last game doesn’t give him the confidence to push on, what will? Needs to become a more consistent tackler - it is the fundamentals where he falls down, his talent is clear. That can be coached, they need to get on him now and help him push on. Joyner needs a simpler game plan - and must shift some weight (as mentioned here often, looks a step slow and doesn’t play with enough urgency). Suh needs to play at End and be spelled far more. If M Brockers is carrying a knock, he should be rested. Can Obo crack the rotation on 3rd downs?

What is harder to fix is the play of Barron. I would leave him as starter, lining up in a knickel - but, in name only, taking him out on 1st and 2nd down- putting Kiser in. Jeremiah Trotter wasn’t very good vs the pass - but brought the kitchen pale - Our rookie plays with that demeanour and has made his presence felt on SP. Time to see if he can step up. Did Barron come back too soon? The 2 week game break might be a tonic, I hope so, he has been rock solid up till now...

Have we got a proper NT on the team? If we do, now is the time to play him - before we get into the playoffs. With a plan for Brockers to add some weight and take that spot for the post season. I don’t remember him playing badly there - I remember him being solid and then moving, due to need.

Some players, no matter reputation or salary, might need to adapt to more specialist roles if the defence is to gel in time for the playoffs

 

[OnceARam]

What am I missing here? I would really appreciate any and all thoughts by other posters on this topic.

Thanks in advance.

Marcus Peters. This defense seems to be predicated on individual performances and when your "elite" corner is playing hurt it strains the entire system.

That said however I believe Wade is purposely playing possum. He's learning how his players are responding to situations. And he's learning how teams try to attack us.

Think about how good his half time adjustments have been.

Now think about how badly we're going to beat the Saints in the NFC Championship game.

Go Rams!

 

[OnceARam]

#2-FS Lamarcus Joyner, who has been a hard tackling demon since he was drafted LJ didsplayed being in the right position to make a play on the ball & showing great versatility to play multiple position very good now in his 2nd season as a starter is in "Total Fail Mode" in this Wade D. Always late to tackle to the ball, in air & ultra slow to read & breakdown the easiest offensive snaps. LJ is MIA for Wade & the Rams defense this

I agree. What do you think is going on with him? Is he being asked to do anything different?

 

[Mackeyser]

Spitballing here of course.

The poor run defense makes everything more difficult. Wade has to put JJ up closer to line to help out. That leaves Joyner deep which most QBs can look him off and make plays down field.

Why poor run defense?

Is it because they Lbers are to small? Probably a part of it. I'm not sure that the D Line is winning the battle against the run. Having only three down lineman even Donald, Suh and Brockers makes it easier to open holes for running backs. Donald makes a move to the outside shoulder of the guard with Suh getting double teamed opens a big hole in the middle. They can double Brockers and run his way too. I don't know if Brockers would have been better off staying in the middle with keeping the weight he lost. That leads us to the LBers. I wonder if they are reacting fast enough. Seems like they are bit slow to fill the gap and the running back makes a cut and is off to the sideline with space. They may get close but, aren't in position to make tackles. One thing for sure the OLBer defenders don't cover the edges. They pursue upfield too often. Wilson had the edges open all game long in the last Hags game.

Loose pass coverage?

The Cowboys covered the Saints WRs/RBs tightly. The Rams were a little looser in coverage. Makes it much easier to complete passes. Talib can help here. Peters wasn't bad in coverage of Thomas (except the last TD). He got called early for a couple ticky tack holding penalties which I think got in his head. You can see him complaining to the official. Thomas did push off too. Hopefully, nearing the playoffs the officials let defenses be more physical like they did with the Cowboys. Having only Joyner deep doesn't allow for much room for mistakes by the DBs. Still think the Rams need to cover and play more physical against WRs. They also have to tackle the RBs and WRs right away.

The defense isn't going to be great. They need to step up on 3rd downs! They need to bring it to stop the run. Tighter more physical coverage can help the pass rush. Over more physical and discipline approach could make them good enough.

Actually, 3-4 Ds tended to do better against the run because they traditionally had guys like Willie McGinest and Tedi Bruschi... bigger guys who could run and hit. Heck, the Rams ran a 2-5 Eagle at one point (that was Fritz Shurmer iirc) and it put TONS of pressure on the QB and it was really tough to run against.

The reason it fell away was the proliferation of the WCO which put a spotlight on bigger, slower ILBs who couldn't possibly hope to cover faster TEs (in reality, WR/TE hybrids) and/or RBs.

Denver's hybrid 3-4 when they had the No Fly Zone had faster LBs, but they still had the ability to stuff the run. Their DL was also much more gap disciplined because they generally relied on outside pressure.

AD actually creates problems for his own ILBs, especially, because if he sees something and jumps out of his gap to try and make a play, unless the ILB sees it and is big enough and strong enough to bottle up that gap, it's a big play waiting to be made.

So, in a way, AD's freelancing is really exposing Barron and putting Littleton in a tough spot. So, to really utilize AD to his fullest and not have the run D suffer, we need a LB like Vander Esch. Short of that, our Run D will always suffer.

 

[Merlin]

If we get Talib back here for this stretch there's going to be significant improvement in our pass defense. And at that point a LOT of posters who do the weekly questioning of our Hall of Fame DC are going to realize our problem has been who we have lining up on dudes.

 

[Merlin]

Denver's hybrid 3-4 when they had the No Fly Zone had faster LBs, but they still had the ability to stuff the run. Their DL was also much more gap disciplined because they generally relied on outside pressure.

Yeah he really had the right guys in Denver at ILB. Not only were they great vs the pass but they were tough and physical and excelled vs the run.

His version of the 3-4 has the advantage of being able to utilize interior rush ability of his DL. Drawback is everyone has to do their job/gap or the run defense falls apart.

 

[1maGoh]

Yeah he really had the right guys in Denver at ILB. Not only were they great vs the pass but they were tough and physical and excelled vs the run.

His version of the 3-4 has the advantage of being able to utilize interior rush ability of his DL. Drawback is everyone has to do their job/gap or the run defense falls apart.

I have thought got a while that we might have picked up too many guys whose strength is freelancing. AD is great because he had the athleticism, strength, and sure to do anything on any given play to get a sack, even if it's not in the past design. Marcus Peters is known for gambling and kind of doing his own thing to make plays. Barron plays best as a somewhat freelancing chase LB. Joyner, in my opinion, isn't going full force. That's every group with one guy that on any given play isn't acting according to plan. If 2-3 guys do that on a single play, that's a big play.

Freelancing is a great thing, but it requires everyone except one guy to do exactly what they're asked to do.

JMHO.

 

[BonifayRam]

AD is having his best season in the area of sacks & pass rush pressures & hits on the QB playing next to Suh @ NT. The last two seasons under Wade's 34 D .... AD has gone off in the above stats. Nothing could be more exciting this season on defense than watching this once in a lifetime player help my Rams win.

I also think when I review back @ AD's 2014/ 2015/ 2016 when he was playing next to NT Micheal Brockers inside....AD's tackles of ball carriers was higher & his perfromance had a bigger impact in stopping the run. I believe Brockers/Donald duo inside works better to stop our opponents run game.

In the playoffs the Rams stand a very good chance to play running teams like Dallas/Ezekiel Elliott & Dak Prescott or Seattle/ Wilson, Christ Carson, Mike Davis & Rashaad Penny in LA on the dirt field ......I would hope to see Brockers lining up next to AD more often. I would also hope to see Barron on the sideline in most running situations. I don't care who plays the weakside ILB post ... Ramik Wilson, Bryce Hager or Micah Kiser but get Barron off the field on early downs.