2023 Defense through 12 Games vs 2022 first 12 games

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JimY53

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  • #21
Gotta give props to morris for sure.

making a functional defense out of scrap parts.
My concern is when they have a bad game---and they will at some point, perhaps as soon as this week, the #4 folks will be back at it.

Groups 1, 2, and 3 will be able to discuss the reasons why, will be fair, and can talk about the defense with nuance. Blanket generalizations are not the best way to discuss things.

Knee-jerk reactions not usually helpful and that is what I think will happen at some point when there is a letdown.
 

shovelpass

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Every game thread has multiple posts about how soft the Defense is, can't tackle etc. By the middle of the week everyone is saying how the Defense is actually pretty good. Come game time everyone will be saying it's bad again, can't tackle. By the middle of next week everyone will be saying it's actually a pretty good Defense, and on we go.
The gameday thread is full of knee jerk reactions. Halfway through the 1st quarter people are ready to call the game a loss, and cut/fire half the team.
 

Allen2McVay

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The gameday thread is full of knee jerk reactions. Halfway through the 1st quarter people are ready to call the game a loss, and cut/fire half the team.
Game-day threads following a Rams' win are a fun read after the game is played. Roller-coaster of emotions.
 

bomebadeeda

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The problem with using "pure" numbers in comparing one year to the next is the teams (and rosters......) that we played against. Did we play "better" teams this year or last. Were their star players in the lineup when we played them. Those questions deeply affect the overall answer.

Now that been said, I do agree with the general assessment that our defense (and Morris....) has gotten more out of less this year. But good discussion none the less.
 

JimY53

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The problem with using "pure" numbers in comparing one year to the next is the teams (and rosters......) that we played against. Did we play "better" teams this year or last. Were their star players in the lineup when we played them. Those questions deeply affect the overall answer.

Now that been said, I do agree with the general assessment that our defense (and Morris....) has gotten more out of less this year. But good discussion none the less.
Somewhat affects the answer --- but aware of that, and is a fair point.
But I've found people don't like advanced stats that account for for those things.

But I will give you DVOA if you want it...DVOA, you can read about it...takes a lot of things into account
Here it is through 12 games
2022 = 16th
2023 = 19th

There were common opponents from 2022 to 2023 such as - Dallas, GB, plus divisional opponents
last year played the Bills, Bucs and Chiefs
this year Bengals, Eagles, Browns

So good teams both years, prob a bit better last year? Hard to say.

IMO not enough of a difference to affect the answer. I always try to only give stats in context--apples to apples. But you also have to use
things a lot of folks are familiar.

Bottom line is despite flaws in 2022 the defense didn't stink before Donald went down. After? Yes. Bad.
What I'd like is the group #4 to look at facts. Groups 1, 2, and 3 usually do and people can disagree

This stuff is mostly for any #4s around.
 

PARAM

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It's Pleasant not Morris.....unless Kendricks screws up.....then it's Morris not Pleasant.

Like DieterBrock said, the defense is better despite losing Wagner & Ramsey, marginally but better just the same. FWIW, they also lost Gaines and A'Shawn.
 

bubbaramfan

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I have a question . and I think its relevant.

How much money did the 2022 D make, and how much is the current D making in this year's salary?

I think it's safe to say Rams are getting a bargain this year.
 

PARAM

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And as far as "not being better" statistically, they are ranked higher than the 2022 defense. Trends occur. Offenses play better the more the rule changes to favor them take affect over seasons. The 2022 Rams D was #22 in points and #19 in yards allowed. The 2023 Rams D is #14 in points and #16 in yards allowed. That, my friends, is without a lot of stars and as Bubba said, without a lot of money spent.
 

dang

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Game-day threads following a Rams' win are a fun read after the game is played. Roller-coaster of emotions.
I dont get why so many ROD members post so much during the game. Why not watch the game, make it thru the thrill of victory or the agony of defeat, then by all means weigh in once it’s over. Admittedly I did post during the Packers game once I saw how impudent Rypien was right out of the gate but it was over early.
 
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JimY53

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And as far as "not being better" statistically, they are ranked higher than the 2022 defense. Trends occur. Offenses play better the more the rule changes to favor them take affect over seasons. The 2022 Rams D was #22 in points and #19 in yards allowed. The 2023 Rams D is #14 in points and #16 in yards allowed. That, my friends, is without a lot of stars and as Bubba said, without a lot of money spent.
My point is the Rams defense, after Donald got hurt, was bad.

The stats posted today are in context, 12 games this year, first 12 games last year...both with a heathy Aaron Donald.

It was done that way for apples-to-apples comparison. The last 5-6 games skewed the defense final numbers for the worse.

And the point (for me) is not who is or isn't better -- the evidence is they were similar, give or take, when #99 was playing.
My point is that the difference in results, which is what some say they want is not a big enough difference either way for
there to be a huge difference in the love/hate of Morris. Love him now, hate him last year.

Reasonable people can discuss which is or isn't better or if they are the same. I say same ballpark --- but if someone else
says the is a slight difference---then okay, fine.

I think you make a fair point but using last- year's 17 games vs this year's 12 ... isn't fair context, IMO.
 

OldSchool

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I have a question . and I think its relevant.

How much money did the 2022 D make, and how much is the current D making in this year's salary?

I think it's safe to say Rams are getting a bargain this year.
2022 defense was 34.07% of the cap
2023 defense is 21.53% of the cap
 

OldSchool

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Aaron Donald $26 million
Murchison $1.01 million (of all people?)
Ernest Jones $1.3 million
Fuller $2.8 million (rounded up)
B Young $1 million

Everybody else below $1 million.
 

OldSchool

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Offense has 13 guys over a million.
Kupp $17 million
Stafford $20 million
Havenstein $9.5 million
 

PARAM

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My point is the Rams defense, after Donald got hurt, was bad.

The stats posted today are in context, 12 games this year, first 12 games last year...both with a heathy Aaron Donald.

It was done that way for apples-to-apples comparison. The last 5-6 games skewed the defense final numbers for the worse.

And the point (for me) is not who is or isn't better -- the evidence is they were similar, give or take, when #99 was playing.
My point is that the difference in results, which is what some say they want is not a big enough difference either way for
there to be a huge difference in the love/hate of Morris. Love him now, hate him last year.

Reasonable people can discuss which is or isn't better or if they are the same. I say same ballpark --- but if someone else
says the is a slight difference---then okay, fine.

I think you make a fair point but using last- year's 17 games vs this year's 12 ... isn't fair context, IMO.
First off, Donald played 11 games last year, not 12. Second, it's not just Donald. This defense is without Ramsey, Wagner, Floyd, Gaines, A'Shawn, Scott, Rapp and Hill.....that's 117 starts last year. But they're not the same through the first 11 games. Last year 18.1 ppg and 323.8 yds/g. This year 20.0 and 359.6 yds/g. However, those vets I mentioned were replaced by a combination of rookies and 2nd/3rd year guys. And they're getting better. Over the first 5 games, they allowed 21.6 PPG. Over the last 7 games, 19.4 (including the Dallas game when they gave up 34). The point is, the difference is miniscule and yet they're missing a lot of experienced, talented players from last year. Which in a nutshell means, they're getting more bang for their buck than last year. And Morris has to get a little credit. Odd this discussion is taking place the week of the Baltimore game, a game most believe we'll be trucked and if we are.........
 

snackdaddy

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I have a question . and I think its relevant.

How much money did the 2022 D make, and how much is the current D making in this year's salary?

I think it's safe to say Rams are getting a bargain this year.
I read the defense is costing 48 million. And that includes Donald's 26 million. That is a bargain.
 

RamsOfCastamere

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Ramsey, Wagner, Floyd, Robinson, Gaines, Scott. Those guys are all gone. Replaced by low cost first and second year players. Or cheap free agents. Most of them day 3 picks. If Raheem had them playing at the same level as the guys in 2022, yup, he should get credit for a job well done.

In my opinion we're sitting pretty good with him. If he gets a head coaching job we get a 3rd round comp pick. If he stays we have a coordinator who's proven he can devise a good game plan in the post season.
How did you forget to list Taylor Rapp, the goat?
 

Elmgrovegnome

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My point is the Rams defense, after Donald got hurt, was bad.

The stats posted today are in context, 12 games this year, first 12 games last year...both with a heathy Aaron Donald.

It was done that way for apples-to-apples comparison. The last 5-6 games skewed the defense final numbers for the worse.

And the point (for me) is not who is or isn't better -- the evidence is they were similar, give or take, when #99 was playing.
My point is that the difference in results, which is what some say they want is not a big enough difference either way for
there to be a huge difference in the love/hate of Morris. Love him now, hate him last year.

Reasonable people can discuss which is or isn't better or if they are the same. I say same ballpark --- but if someone else
says the is a slight difference---then okay, fine.

I think you make a fair point but using last- year's 17 games vs this year's 12 ... isn't fair context, IMO.
Morris is doing great, considering the youth on the defense. I’d also credit the assistants.

But one factor that is different is than last year is the Rams had Ramsey, AShawn, Floyd and Wagner. Wagner was a big piece added. So how is it apples to apples with so many different parts?

1. Could it be that some of those veterans were worn down from the long season the year before, after playing all the way to the Super Bowl?

2. Or maybe some of those players were not playing as hard since they won a Super Bowl? This could bring about Donald’s comment to McVay to make sure that they draft players that care.

3. Or was the defense too old?

4. Maybe some of the new assistant coaching hires are helping more than last years staff. Or maybe it’s McVay’s refreshed look on how he wants he and his staff to coach.

It’s not a black and white comparison. There could be many factors that contribute to the difference.

Whatever it is, they are doing a great job.
 

JimY53

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First off, Donald played 11 games last year, not 12. Second, it's not just Donald.
Aware of that. But did 12 games because that's how many they have played this year and if I did 11 then someone who is anti-Morris would complain of "cherry picking" or things like that. I have some experience with this. The lengths that a few people will go to discredit Morris are stunning. Even in this thread by giving numbers in context, being fair there was pushback.

So yeah, I knew how many games DOnald played but chose to keep it 12 games to 12 games.

But I am trying to keep people focused on the main question which is if there is SO MUCH OF A DIFFERENCE, given all the obvious things like personnel changes, injuries, etc. that Morris deserved so much hate last year and love this year.

Debating the differences is what always happens, I think it's reasonably established that there is not a ton of difference in "results". And I use that word specifically because it was used by hate elsewhere to justify his hate of Morris (and by hate I mean name-calling, he lacks "smarts" and "stones") and to give him love this year.

I am showing the folly of that kind of thinking. I am pointing out Rams defense, with Donald, was not as bad as detractors said and is not as good as they think it is.

The culture of scapegoating is sometimes overwhelming. And lack of a few to not connect the offensive improvements to the defense. We look at the wins and forget the details. If people want to really get into the weeds, where would the defense be if the offense was as bad as last year? We've seen what happens when the offense cannot move the ball this year--it hurts an up-and-coming (but not stellar) defense.

Someone posted the perfect thing - If Rams defense does well it is to the credit of Anthony Pleasant and if they fail it's Raheem doing.

That is the kind of thinking I see on Twitter, here, and elsewhere. That culture is toxic. And reasonable discussions can change that. Part of that is understanding what is happening. When you have people saying something is done in a certain way and the facts are that it is not done that way and those people try and poison a discussion a little questioning of their knowledge can perhaps help.

Perhaps not.

Understanding the defense can help bridge the gap between being reasonable (the groups 1, 2, 3) and not being reasonable (group 4)

trust me, I know every which way to dissect the differences in defense and focus. I did it with the 2020 to 2021 defenses. So, the things you bring up have merit but they are baked into the cake when it comes to asking the haters to identify why there is an 180-degree turnaround. Not 10 degrees, 45 degrees -- but a reversal of positions. I have my theory as to why the change but wanted input from others.

In my mind it wasn't to rehash little things here and there---it was a big-picture question because hating Morris in various Internet places, has become --- extreme in some cases
 
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