Would the Sam Bradford debate be different if the Fisher/Snead regime drafted him?

[blue4]

LOL indeed those come around every couple of drafts don't they.

That's what I kept thinking listening to all the Clowney talk.

 

[dieterbrock]

If Fish/Snead had drafted him, that would mean we were in the 5th year of their tenure and heading in to this season as defending Superbowl champs. Pretty sure Bradford would be free from criticism

 

[iced]

Nah. There will always be some "once in a generation" defensive player someone will be butthurt about not getting.

lol i agree.. It seems there are more "once a generation" prospects vs guys that just explode off film, like an Adrian Peterson... I'll never forget watching that guy run in college.. By The way Thank you Arizona for being stupid enough to pass on that HOF back, much appreciated...

 

[jrry32]

Yes, I think they'd be quite different. I don't think it's so much Spags's approach as it was the dysfunctional environment, lack of player development and poor coaching.

If Bradford had Fisher, Schottenheimer, the other assistants, and a roster that likely would have been better developed (especially by now) around him. Yes, I think he'd have established himself as the franchise QB.

The thing that I've noticed in really watching Bradford since Fisher, Schotty, and co. took over is that his game has progressed to such a major degree. And it isn't just being comfortable in the scheme. His mechanics, pocket presence, and eye discipline have all greatly improved over time. I think that is in stark contrast to when Spags was here. He just didn't have people around him that developed talent effectively.

Plus, gotta believe that we'd have had Paul Boudreau instead of Steve Loney as an OL Coach which would have made a world of difference.

In conclusion, I think Sam would have been in 2012 where he was heading in 2013...a player cementing himself as a franchise QB...and I think he would have successfully done it.

 

[jrry32]

That's what I kept thinking listening to all the Clowney talk.

I think people are going to come to realize that it wasn't talk with Clowney. He's a rare athlete and a rare type of player. He'll be as good as he wants to be. And you can't say that about a lot of guys.

LOL indeed those come around every couple of drafts don't they.

Well, it's usually an once in a decade player and there are five distinct positions on defense.
1. Edge Rusher (DE/OLB)
2. Interior Rusher (DT/NT)
3. Linebacker (4-3 LB, 3-4 ILB)
4. Cornerback
5. Safety

So logically, it would make sense that there's an once in a decade talent on defense every couple of drafts or so. Doesn't always workout that way but it would make sense.

 

[FRO]

Yes, I think they'd be quite different. I don't think it's so much Spags's approach as it was the dysfunctional environment, lack of player development and poor coaching.

If Bradford had Fisher, Schottenheimer, the other assistants, and a roster that likely would have been better developed (especially by now) around him. Yes, I think he'd have established himself as the franchise QB.

The thing that I've noticed in really watching Bradford since Fisher, Schotty, and co. took over is that his game has progressed to such a major degree. And it isn't just being comfortable in the scheme. His mechanics, pocket presence, and eye discipline have all greatly improved over time. I think that is in stark contrast to when Spags was here. He just didn't have people around him that developed talent effectively.

Plus, gotta believe that we'd have had Paul Boudreau instead of Steve Loney as an OL Coach which would have made a world of difference.

In conclusion, I think Sam would have been in 2012 where he was heading in 2013...a player cementing himself as a franchise QB...and I think he would have successfully done it.

I agree. His pocket awareness has improved, and they seem to have instilled confidence in him. In 2011 it looked like his confidence was zapped out. I think a reason you see a higher success rate in our draft picks recently is because we have better coaches to develop them. We also have a GM that picks better talent as well. Demoff has said they pick high upside guys because they know our coaches can develop them. That's why we picked Robinson.

 

[FRO]

Also agree on Clowney. Guys like him are extremely rare. That big, powerful, athletic, and fast. Guy is going to be a Bruce Smith/Reggie White type player. I was praying the Texans would mess that pick up. That being said having the second overall pick in this draft was hard to mess up. Too many elite talents up top to really go wrong. I'm happy we got Robinson.

 

[AZRamsFan93]

Lol true, I'm sure Bradford doesn't mind being the 50 million dollar man. I have always looked at his 2012-2013 season and thought "why aren't we okay with this statistically" even though he had some rough stretches. I think this is the year for Bradford and I have always been on the fence about him. Expecting a huge breakout and him to win my fantasy league for me lol

I hope you are correct about Sam this year - it could be his breakout season.

If you were okay with Sam's 2012 season statistically:

24th in the NFL in completion percentage at 59.5%
26th in the NFL in YPA at 6.7
21st in the NFL in QB rating at 82.6
15th in the NFL in yards passing at 3,702

Then I submit you have pretty low standards.

Of those I am least concerned about the passing yards - if he were to get that yardage this year but with a completion percentage over 62, a YPA in the mid 7's, and a QB rating over 90 I would be pleased!

 

[AZRamsFan93]

I think the majority of the hate on Bradford stems from two things. His draft position and the expectations that come with it. Plus, that big contract. If he were to be drafted a year later and maybe late first round, I think things would be different. People wouldn't be looking at that contract as a reason why they can't get him the support he needs.

I think his career passer rating of 79.6 has more to do with it. He has not shined.

 

[FRO]

I hope you are correct about Sam this year - it could be his breakout season.

If you were okay with Sam's 2012 season statistically:

24th in the NFL in completion percentage at 59.5%
26th in the NFL in YPA at 6.7
21st in the NFL in QB rating at 82.6
15th in the NFL in yards passing at 3,702

Then I submit you have pretty low standards.

Of those I am least concerned about the passing yards - if he were to get that yardage this year but with a completion percentage over 62, a YPA in the mid 7's, and a QB rating over 90 I would be pleased!

Wayne Hunter Quinn Ojinnakka Robert Turner Harvey Dahl and Barry Richardson was his line combination for a good stretch of games. His best receiver Danny Amendola missed a large chunk of games. I don't know what you would expect any QB to do under those circumstances.

 

[jrry32]

I hope you are correct about Sam this year - it could be his breakout season.

If you were okay with Sam's 2012 season statistically:

24th in the NFL in completion percentage at 59.5%
26th in the NFL in YPA at 6.7
21st in the NFL in QB rating at 82.6
15th in the NFL in yards passing at 3,702

Then I submit you have pretty low standards.

Of those I am least concerned about the passing yards - if he were to get that yardage this year but with a completion percentage over 62, a YPA in the mid 7's, and a QB rating over 90 I would be pleased!

I submit that stats are reliant on the supporting cast and team element. Thus, they are not truly individual and do not accurately sum up "play".

For example, Tom Brady in 2013 with lackluster weapons:
Completion% = 60.5%
YPA = 6.9
YPG = 271.4
TDPG = 1.6
INTPG = 0.7
QB Rating = 87.1

And Rob Gronkowski played 7 games, which is close to half the year. Without Gronk, Brady had:
Completion% = 57.6%
YPA = 6.2
YPG = 237.6
TDPG = 1.3
INTPG = 0.7
QB Rating = 80.3

With Gronk, Brady had:
Completion% = 64.1%
YPA = 7.8
YPG = 315
TDPG = 1.9
INTPG = 0.7
QB Rating = 95.8

It's astounding here the differences in the numbers with Gronk and without. So lets look at what Bradford was throwing to in 2012:
1. Chris Givens - Rookie
2. Brandon Gibson
3. Danny Amendola - Injured
4. Lance Kendricks
5. Austin Pettis

Lets look at Bradford's OL (number of games started):
LT: Rodger Saffold(10)/Wayne Hunter(4)/Joe Barksdale(2)
LG: Robert Turner(7)/Quinn Ojinnaka(5)/Shelley Smith(4)
C: Robert Turner(9)/Scott Wells(7)
RG: Harvey Dahl(14)/Shelley Smith(2)/Chris Williams(0)
RT: Barry Richardson(16)

Where did his running game rank, you may ask? 19th in yards, 15th in yards per carry and 29th in TDs.

I don't think any of us believe that Bradford is Tom Brady good. But look at the effect Brady's cast had on his numbers. Now look at Bradford's cast in 2012. You had one of the league's worst group of WRs, you had an OL filled with a bunch of JAGs and players out of the NFL except for Wells and Saffold who were both injured for good chunks of the year, and you had an average running game.

Where was his help? I think the fact that his numbers were actually somewhat solid speaks well of his play.

 

[Angry Ram]

Quinn was the right pick. It still hurts that we could have had Quinn and Cobb. I hope Austin turns into a player similar to Cobb. He's like a smaller, faster, and more elusive Cobb.

Randall Cobb rookie year: 25 receptions, 375 yards, 1 TD; 2 rushes, 5 yards, 0 TD

Tavon Austin rookie year: 40 receptions, 418 yards, 4 TDs; 9 rush, 151 yards, 1 TD

Let. Them. Develop.

 

[Rams and Gators]

Wayne Hunter Quinn Ojinnakka Robert Turner Harvey Dahl and Barry Richardson was his line combination for a good stretch of games. His best receiver Danny Amendola missed a large chunk of games. I don't know what you would expect any QB to do under those circumstances.

I have a fun game, basically you select a number at random and then try and guess the starting OL for that game.

For example 7:
Rodger SaffoldLT
Jacob BellLG
Jason BrownC
Adam GoldbergRG
Jason SmithRT

or 36:
Wayne HunterLT
Quinn OjinnakaLG
Robert TurnerC
Harvey DahlRG
Barry RichardsonRT

Alright I'm depressed now.

 

[FRO]

I have a fun game, basically you select a number at random and then try and guess the starting OL for that game.

For example 7:
Rodger SaffoldLT
Jacob BellLG
Jason BrownC
Adam GoldbergRG
Jason SmithRT

or 36:
Wayne HunterLT
Quinn OjinnakaLG
Robert TurnerC
Harvey DahlRG
Barry RichardsonRT

Alright I'm depressed now.

Great line combos

 

[Rams and Gators]

Great line combos

I like how each line has 1 guy still in the league.

 

[FRO]

I like how each line has 1 guy still in the league.

Not many other teams in the league have people from their 2012 offensive line alive much less in the league at all.

 

[AZRamsFan93]

I submit that stats are reliant on the supporting cast and team element. Thus, they are not truly individual and do not accurately sum up "play".

For example, Tom Brady in 2013 with lackluster weapons:
Completion% = 60.5%
YPA = 6.9
YPG = 271.4
TDPG = 1.6
INTPG = 0.7
QB Rating = 87.1

And Rob Gronkowski played 7 games, which is close to half the year. Without Gronk, Brady had:
Completion% = 57.6%
YPA = 6.2
YPG = 237.6
TDPG = 1.3
INTPG = 0.7
QB Rating = 80.3

With Gronk, Brady had:
Completion% = 64.1%
YPA = 7.8
YPG = 315
TDPG = 1.9
INTPG = 0.7
QB Rating = 95.8

It's astounding here the differences in the numbers with Gronk and without. So lets look at what Bradford was throwing to in 2012:
1. Chris Givens - Rookie
2. Brandon Gibson
3. Danny Amendola - Injured
4. Lance Kendricks
5. Austin Pettis

Lets look at Bradford's OL (number of games started):
LT: Rodger Saffold(10)/Wayne Hunter(4)/Joe Barksdale(2)
LG: Robert Turner(7)/Quinn Ojinnaka(5)/Shelley Smith(4)
C: Robert Turner(9)/Scott Wells(7)
RG: Harvey Dahl(14)/Shelley Smith(2)/Chris Williams(0)
RT: Barry Richardson(16)

Where did his running game rank, you may ask? 19th in yards, 15th in yards per carry and 29th in TDs.

I don't think any of us believe that Bradford is Tom Brady good. But look at the effect Brady's cast had on his numbers. Now look at Bradford's cast in 2012. You had one of the league's worst group of WRs, you had an OL filled with a bunch of JAGs and players out of the NFL except for Wells and Saffold who were both injured for good chunks of the year, and you had an average running game.

Where was his help? I think the fact that his numbers were actually somewhat solid speaks well of his play.

Don't be so defensive. Sam will survive introspection.

I was responding to the comment (paraphrasing) "why aren't we happy with the year 2012 statistically?"....

I pointed out that the 2012 statistics were not good. I did not qualify them, nor did I blame anyone. I just pointed out that we should not be happy with them. I did not mean to cause an immediate rush to defend Sam.

Jeez - you guys have a hair trigger.

 

[AZRamsFan93]

Wayne Hunter Quinn Ojinnakka Robert Turner Harvey Dahl and Barry Richardson was his line combination for a good stretch of games. His best receiver Danny Amendola missed a large chunk of games. I don't know what you would expect any QB to do under those circumstances.

It is okay guys. We all understand the situation that Sam has been in.

That doesn't mean we can wish away reality.

I think this year Sam will break out.

It is not, however, fait accompli.

 

[jrry32]

Don't be so defensive. Sam will survive introspection.

I was responding to the comment (paraphrasing) "why aren't we happy with the year 2012 statistically?"....

I pointed out that the 2012 statistics were not good. I did not qualify them, nor did I blame anyone. I just pointed out that we should not be happy with them. I did not mean to cause an immediate rush to defend Sam.

Jeez - you guys have a hair trigger.

I'm not being defensive. I made a logical argument with a lot of good points. That's what message boards are for.

I was showing you why somebody could be content with his stats that year despite where they ranked in the NFL. Because the circumstances matter.

It is okay guys. We all understand the situation that Sam has been in.

That doesn't mean we can wish away reality.

I think this year Sam will break out.

It is not, however, fait accompli.

Reality is subjective.

 

[Philly5]

2011 was a disaster that any organization should have foreseen. You don't put in a new offense with all the strike nonsense going on. Especially with a second year QB with very limited weapons.

It would be interesting to see what Bradford would do in a wide open offense. It would be interesting to see what Bradford would do if he was surrounded by weapons like Roddy White, Tony Gonzalez, and Julio Jones (for example).

With Fisher regime for two additional years we would have had more talent and success by now. Both good things for any QB.