Workplace violence

[Ramhusker]

Looking for opinions here about an incident that happened at the job last month.

Here's the scenario

Production line has been maxed out for awhile now due to increased speeds of making the product (paper). EE A has been dogging it for some time and rest of crew have had it with backing them up for some time. It's the heat of summer and not many breaks to be had when somebody is thwarting your best efforts to keep up. So EE B has had enough. He goes over to EE A's workstation to request he keep it moving. EE A (25 yr EE ) tells him to F off, shoves him, then takes a swing. These guys are in a room about the size of a double phone booth. EE B (2 yr EE) proceeds to punch in combinations until EE A is swollen about the head and neck. Altercation is stopped by other EEs and supervisor. Subsequently, both EEs are fired.

I understand the company is in a difficult position here because if you don't fire the guys, you are de facto condoning their actions. And if you fire just one, you are probably opening yourself up to some sort of litigation. But, if you are not going to let EE B defend himself, it seems you are opening up another can of worms. The next guy that gets punched would seemingly have an open and shut case against the company for not providing a safe work environment because he feels he would be fired for defending himself. What say ye arm chair litigators?

 

[-X-]

an open and shut case against the company for not providing a safe work environment

That's all that needs to be said.
Sadly, both needed to be fired because firing one (the instigator) opens a lawsuit, and firing the other one (retaliator) opens another.
I assume there's a zero tolerance policy regarding workplace violence anyway.

 

[Dodgersrf]

Had EE B just restrained the EE A, I wouldn't have fired him. The fact that he went on the offensive after the first guy missed is an issue.

Yes. I would have fired them both.

 

[ozarkram]

I would say this isn't over. Someone will lawyer-up. Probably 25 year guy. Is there a Union?

 

[Dodgersrf]

I would say this isn't over. Someone will lawyer-up. Probably 25 year guy. Is there a Union?

I bet they both win as well.

 

[Ramhusker]

I would say this isn't over. Someone will lawyer-up. Probably 25 year guy. Is there a Union?

Yes, United Steel Workers. They will probably arbitrate to no avail.

 

[beej]

Yep, fire both and their foreman would have some splaining to do too. It never should have got to that point.

 

[ozarkram]

Yes, United Steel Workers. They will probably arbitrate to no avail.

As a former union VP this is what I would do. Tomorrow morning I would be in there demanding full reinstatement of both employees with full pay,benefits and seniority. I would demand to know how long the shifts had been maxed out and the company should have known better, it was bound to happen. I would demand to see the workplace violence policy and training with signed and dated paper saying my people took it and understood it. If none I would demand training. I would demand counseling for all employees. I would then tell them about all the grievances and lawsuits I am going to file because I don't like the color of the room. Then I would tell them about all the paperwork I will put on them because somebody farted and it offended me. Then I would tell them they must provide me with an office. (in most union contracts) And I can talk to all employees at any time about union business for as long as I like. (in most contracts) And if I have to pull your machine operators off line whole shifts to talk union business. Well sucks to be you. And where was your supervisor scratching his butt why didn't he stop it before it happened. Remember right or wrong I am suppose to get your job back.

 

[beej]

As a former union VP this is what I would do. Tomorrow morning I would be in there demanding full reinstatement of both employees with full pay,benefits and seniority. I would demand to know how long the shifts had been maxed out and the company should have known better, it was bound to happen. I would demand to see the workplace violence policy and training with signed and dated paper saying my people took it and understood it. If none I would demand training. I would demand counseling for all employees. I would then tell them about all the grievances and lawsuits I am going to file because I don't like the color of the room. Then I would tell them about all the paperwork I will put on them because somebody farted and it offended me. Then I would tell them they must provide me with an office. (in most union contracts) And I can talk to all employee at any time about union business for as long as I like. (in most contracts) And if I have to pull your machine operators off line whole shifts to talk union business. Well sucks to be you. And where was your supervisor scratching his butt why didn't he stop it before it happened Remember right or wrong I am suppose to get your job back.

Wow! That's why we're not union.

 

[-X-]

As a former union VP this is what I would do. Tomorrow morning I would be in there demanding full reinstatement of both employees with full pay,benefits and seniority. I would demand to know how long the shifts had been maxed out and the company should have known better, it was bound to happen. I would demand to see the workplace violence policy and training with signed and dated paper saying my people took it and understood it. If none I would demand training. I would demand counseling for all employees. I would then tell them about all the grievances and lawsuits I am going to file because I don't like the color of the room. Then I would tell them about all the paperwork I will put on them because somebody farted and it offended me. Then I would tell them they must provide me with an office. (in most union contracts) And I can talk to all employee at any time about union business for as long as I like. (in most contracts) And if I have to pull your machine operators off line whole shifts to talk union business. Well sucks to be you. And where was your supervisor scratching his butt why didn't he stop it before it happened. Remember right or wrong I am suppose to get your job back.

That's about right.
I was in the International Union of Elevator Constructors, and you couldn't fire a guy without going through the BA's gauntlet.
And most of the time, nobody survived that gauntlet.

 

[ozarkram]

Wow! That's why we're not union.

Does not mean they will get their jobs back. But I will try and make things so bad for the company that they do.

 

[beej]

I've never really been anti union or pro union for that matter. But reading that, may have just turned me to the anti side.

 

[ozarkram]

I've never really been anti union or pro union for that matter. But reading that, may have just turned me to the anti side.

If you have a job you do it to the best of your abilities. I have had to pull some real scum bags fat outta of the fire. And I didn't like it a bit. But I have seen the other side to where decent hard working people were being screw sideways by their company. I will say this if its your ass on the line. You want a guy like me in your corner.

 

[beej]

I will say this if its your ass on the line. You want a guy like me in your corner.

Lol! I believe that's true. You are always welcome in my corner. But I don't let my ass get near the line.

 

[fearsomefour]

Yes, United Steel Workers. They will probably arbitrate to no avail.

I doubt he would get his job back, but, may be able to retain some of his pension.
Amazing after 25 years a guy would take a swing at someone. Talk about short sighted.

 

[RAMSinLA]

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2015/...eks-after-getting-sucker-punched-by-teammate/

 

[bluecoconuts]

Had EE B just restrained the EE A, I wouldn't have fired him. The fact that he went on the offensive after the first guy missed is an issue.

Yes. I would have fired them both.

That's what I'd do to. If two of my guys fight they're both gone, if one attacks and the other defends and restrains then no.

 

[Force16X]

I've never really been anti union or pro union for that matter. But reading that, may have just turned me to the anti side.

i understand your point of view and quite often the union i'm in (Teamsters--dont ask why, i work in a chemical plant), seems to save jobs of people very deserving of being fired. however, the union does help with contractual issues that keeps favortism down and makes sure seniority is applied properly for overtime and job bids.
Plus, if put into a position where suspension or termination is being brought up by the company against yourself, you get an opportunity to defend yourself against any charges instead of just being ushered out the door.
Trust me, in this day and age of wage cutting and insurance costs, companies come up with the damndest reasons to try and terminate employees anymore. Even though some undeserving employees stay employed regardless of what they do, its a small price to pay for those employees the company tries to harass and force out the door who have their jobs saved.

 

[ozarkram]

i understand your point of view and quite often the union i'm in (Teamsters--dont ask why, i work in a chemical plant), seems to save jobs of people very deserving of being fired. however, the union does help with contractual issues that keeps favortism down and makes sure seniority is applied properly for overtime and job bids.
Plus, if put into a position where suspension or termination is being brought up by the company against yourself, you get an opportunity to defend yourself against any charges instead of just being ushered out the door.
Trust me, in this day and age of wage cutting and insurance costs, companies come up with the damndest reasons to try and terminate employees anymore. Even though some undeserving employees stay employed regardless of what they do, its a small price to pay for those employees the company tries to harass and force out the door who have their jobs saved.

This is pretty much spot on. You cant pick and chose. (sadly sometimes) Unions use to be self policing not so much anymore. That's where I have a beef with them.

 

[Rmfnlt]

Unions... management... neither should be left to their own devices.

Balance.

This is a good example and @ozarkam seems to fully understand the one side.