Why the St. Louis Rams shouldn't fire GM Billy Devaney

[HornIt]

You pulled out the "no OTA's, complicated offense" excuse posed as a question. I answered that question by debunking the excuse with rookie 2nd round draft pick Dalton and Jay Gruden's new and complicated offense, not just for Dalton but for the entire offense including rookie WR, etc. You don't like that answer though, so you characterize the exchange inaccurately as "skipped all that to tell you about Dalton's stats".

That comparison doesn't really work because the Bengals gave Dalton a far more simple offense than Bradford has, and he also has the benefit of a mostly healthy offense, and better receivers and tight ends. I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree with trying to compare the two teams, because there are far different circumstances around why they are overachieving while we are underachieving.

Not sure where the idea that Jay Gruden's offense is some simple offense came from. It's not. It's supposedly one of the more difficult to learn and I would argue a lot farther for a rookie coming from TCU's offense to go than for Bradford to go from one NFL offense to another that intentionally kept stuff from the last offense to ease the transition, according to McDaniels, Spags and Bradford.

Everybody thinks the WR's and TE's are better when the QB is playing better. That's the way it goes, but if that group were struggling, people would be blaming it on having gotten rid of the proven veterans and gone with a group led by a rookie and other young and unproven WR's and TE's.

The Rams were 0-6 and the offense already a debacle before the injuries on offense really set in.

The circumstances are never exactly the same. For instance, as I've pointed out Dalton is a rookie 2nd round draft pick, not 2nd year first overall pick. Dalton should be at a significant disadvantage there. But there's also guys like Tebow, Newton, McCoy, etc. all going through similar circumstances. New offense, no OTA's, minicamps, etc. and limited talent, and none have been this bad. Some have been pretty darn good actually.

I get where you are coming from, but I have a harder time finding solace in the circumstances than you do I think.

 

[bluecoconuts]

The Rams lost Steven Jackson on the first play of the season (okay second technically because he play another snap injured) and then lost Amendola later that day, MSW never got going and Salas/Pettis were still trying to adjust to the game at the end of day 1.

Plus their secondary took a big hit that day as well.

It didn't take long for the injuries to effect the team really.


Also for the Bengals offense being more complex, that's not true. If you need evidence to that look at Ochocinco. That's a veteran player who excelled in that offense who can't learn it in New England to the point he is basically invisible on and off the field. Plus you can study their games and see where it's simplified, similar to Bradford's last year where he excelled.

 

[Ram Quixote]

The Rams were 0-6 and the offense already a debacle before the injuries on offense really set in.

So, who was that wearing 39 on the sidelines of the Eagles game? Amendola was gone in the 3rd quarter.

But on top of that, there was some bad luck (Bradford's fumble) and numerous drops that prevented the offense from moving forward. And drops have less to do with talent and everything to do with focus.

And why was there a problem with focus? Because a rookie TE was given a full load before he was ready. Because a rookie WR got the yips in his first start. Because the 2nd year QB began to press and throw the ball harder overcompensating for all the miscues.

How did McDaniel's respond? He didn't, not until the bye week.

 

[HornIt]

The Rams lost Steven Jackson on the first play of the season (okay second technically because he play another snap injured) and then lost Amendola later that day, MSW never got going and Salas/Pettis were still trying to adjust to the game at the end of day 1.

Plus their secondary took a big hit that day as well.

It didn't take long for the injuries to effect the team really.


Also for the Bengals offense being more complex, that's not true. If you need evidence to that look at Ochocinco. That's a veteran player who excelled in that offense who can't learn it in New England to the point he is basically invisible on and off the field. Plus you can study their games and see where it's simplified, similar to Bradford's last year where he excelled.

The Bengals have lost Benson to a game due to suspension and AJ Green to a game due to injury and won both games. They lost Gresham for 2 or 3 games and also have lost their starting RG for 4 games due to suspension and are starting a rookie 4th round pick there.

And let me be clear, this isn't about the Rams offense struggling some. It's about epically bad. Worse than 2007 with all those injuries and Marc Bulger bad.

I also did not say the Bengals offense is more complex. I said it is complex. Ochocinco never played in Jay Gruden's offense that the entire Bengals offense had to learn for the first time this season. They played in Bob Bratkowski's Coryell based system for years and years. Jay Gruden installed the offense he helped his brother John run in Tampa Bay for years and it has been said to be by many players and QB's a difficult offense to learn and to even call in the huddle. Jeff Garcia, Brad Johnson, Rich Gannon all spoke out about how demanding it was to learn and play naturally in without having to think too much.

 

[HornIt]

The Rams were 0-6 and the offense already a debacle before the injuries on offense really set in.

So, who was that wearing 39 on the sidelines of the Eagles game? Amendola was gone in the 3rd quarter.

But on top of that, there was some bad luck (Bradford's fumble) and numerous drops that prevented the offense from moving forward. And drops have less to do with talent and everything to do with focus.

And why was there a problem with focus? Because a rookie TE was given a full load before he was ready. Because a rookie WR got the yips in his first start. Because the 2nd year QB began to press and throw the ball harder overcompensating for all the miscues.

How did McDaniel's respond? He didn't, not until the bye week.

Sure, all just bad luck..........and McDaniels of course.

Bad luck fumble (he's had several), bad luck miss of a wide open Amendola in the endzone, bad luck 13 total points despite 158 yards rushing between Jackson and Williams, bad luck 5 sacks, bad luck drops, bad luck bad ball placement, all against what we'd learn is a bad Eagles team and defense.

Consistently having the same bad luck game in and game out basically since week 12 of the 2010 season.

 

[brokeu91]

One problem I have, and I'm sure this is why there is such a debate, is who knows what part of this is on our coaches not properly developing players.

When the Rams drafted Pace, I had complete confidence that Hanifan would be able to develop him. I have no such confidence in Loney. In the same light, we could draft Blackmon but will Cromwell be able help him reach his potential?

Some of the guys who we drafted weren't making it here, but are now playing for other teams. Is that Devaney's fault?

That's why if I'm Kroenke I would hire a football guy and put him in charge of the whole operation and let that person decide if Devaney or Spags or any of the position coaches need to go or should stay.

Nice analyses.

Who? Where's the list of players who are making it elsewhere and couldn't with the Rams?

Grant is a back-up at ILB in SF. He couldn't make it as a outside backer in Spags's more mentally demanding 4/3.

Robinson was gimpy last year (and it showed in his play). That's why 2 teams let him go (Atl, St. Louis). I don;t know why the 3rd team let him go (SD). He got healthy in Dallas. Good for him.

Other than that who else?

I never said they were playing like probowlers, but they are being developed by other teams...on teams with better records than ours.

We should not have these many 30 year olds on our roster if we're going to suck. If we're going to be a bad team we might as well get something out of it, ie developing players who could become good players/solid contributors one day. I'd rather take our lumps for long-term success rather than just be bad for the sake of being bad. We never gave some those players a chance to develop.

The final roster is not Devaney's decision, it's Spags, and more likely the position coaches/coordinators who tell him who they like. Well, I don't trust the position coaches. I trust McDaniels, only because he had success at multiple locations, otherwise I don't want them making the final cuts. It has hurt us this season and in the long-term.

 

[-X-]

Everyone wants to point the finger at someone and say "That's the badguy." but there are a lot of problems that we're dealing with. Some of them will be replaced with different plays, and different coaches, and different players, and some of them will just be luck. That's how it works in all sports.

True. Very true. Thanks.

I laid that out a few weeks ago too, and I should have just left it at that. I enumerated everything. Now I'm getting drawn into yet another exhaustive argument about one thing and trying to convince someone that that one thing is part of the equation. I'm just gonna bow out of this. I see where it's headed and I want no part of it. I can go to any number of places and do that, so I'll choose not to do it here.

Devaney is not flawless
Spagnuolo is not flawless
McDaniels is not flawless
Position coaches are not flawless
Bradford is not flawless
The O-line is not flawless
And none of them are beyond reproach.

That's all I have to say.

 

[Ram Quixote]

The Rams were 0-6 and the offense already a debacle before the injuries on offense really set in.

So, who was that wearing 39 on the sidelines of the Eagles game? Amendola was gone in the 3rd quarter.

But on top of that, there was some bad luck (Bradford's fumble) and numerous drops that prevented the offense from moving forward. And drops have less to do with talent and everything to do with focus.

And why was there a problem with focus? Because a rookie TE was given a full load before he was ready. Because a rookie WR got the yips in his first start. Because the 2nd year QB began to press and throw the ball harder overcompensating for all the miscues.

How did McDaniel's respond? He didn't, not until the bye week.

Sure, all just bad luck..........and McDaniels of course.

Bad luck fumble (he's had several), bad luck miss of a wide open Amendola in the endzone, bad luck 13 total points despite 158 yards rushing between Jackson and Williams, bad luck 5 sacks, bad luck drops, bad luck bad ball placement, all against what we'd learn is a bad Eagles team and defense.

Consistently having the same bad luck game in and game out basically since week 12 of the 2010 season.

Now you took my mention of one unlucky play (and it was unlucky; Bradford tripped off the snap) and turn my entire argument into "bad luck". That's not what I said, and a specious tactic in debate.

I never said drops and bad passes are bad luck. Back off.

Do you have a response to what happened to Kendricks and Salas that doesn't include McDaniel's rush to implement his offense?

 

[JdashSTL]

Wanna know a big reason why Andy Dalton has been as good as he has? Hes been sacked 19 times. Bradfords been sacked 33. You add in Feeley's starts and theres 43 sacks. Dalton inherited a solid team, and has benefitted from a good schedule (aside from 4 of the division games against the Steelers and Ravens). 6 of their 7 wins are against teams under .500. Titans are the only team with a winning record that they have beaten so far. Am I still impressed with Dalton and that entire team? Yes, very impressed. Does it really piss me off to see other teams have a lot more success than the rams with young QBs? Hell yea it does. I still think its tough to compare other teams to us when no one has gone through the same problems as us in recent years.

 

[Anonymous]

Wanna know a big reason why Andy Dalton has been as good as he has? .

Plus of course Gruden scaled the offense back to make things work for the rookie, just as Shurmur did for Bradford last year. Except of course unlike last year's Rams offense the Bengals have some weapons.

That's the opposite of McD running ahead of his entire offense and not paying attention to the fact that he had young personnel. Or, not paying sufficient attention. Or, just simply failing at whatever it is he did try to do in that regard.

 

[JdashSTL]

Wanna know a big reason why Andy Dalton has been as good as he has? .

Plus of course Gruden scaled the offense back to make things work for the rookie, just as Shurmur did for Bradford last year. Except of course unlike last year's Rams offense the Bengals have some weapons.

That's the opposite of McD running ahead of his entire offense and not paying attention to the fact that he had young personnel. Or, not paying sufficient attention. Or, just simply failing at whatever it is he did try to do in that regard.

Plus, they havent had a lot of injuries. Currently have 2 offensive players on IR, a backup TE and the slot WR (Shipley).

 

[Ram Quixote]

Wanna know a big reason why Andy Dalton has been as good as he has? .

Plus of course Gruden scaled the offense back to make things work for the rookie, just as Shurmur did for Bradford last year. Except of course unlike last year's Rams offense the Bengals have some weapons.

That's the opposite of McD running ahead of his entire offense and not paying attention to the fact that he had young personnel. Or, not paying sufficient attention. Or, just simply failing at whatever it is he did try to do in that regard.

Plus, they havent had a lot of injuries. Currently have 2 offensive players on IR, a backup TE and the slot WR (Shipley).

Continuity. Isn't that the recurring theme among successful teams?

The question for Kroenke, and only he can answer this question (it's subjective), can this FO and coaching staff provide continuity? IMO, they can, given normal circumstances. With the cluster of odd occurrences since 2009 began, the Rams haven't experienced much, and even less this year.

 

[RamFan503]

Continuity. Isn't that the recurring theme among successful teams?

Nah. It's having fans that know more and see more than the coaches and FO. C'mon RQ. How do you think dynasties are built? Sheesh! :tooth: