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Tony Dungy: I wouldn’t have taken Michael Sam

Discussion in 'OFF TOPIC' started by Prime Time, Jul 21, 2014.

  1. Alan Well-Known Member

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    All that other stuff you said might be true but it isn't the point. I'm pretty sure that when you say you get called out you mean you get disagreed with. Nobody (or mat least me) has a problem with your disagreement, we have a problem when you go beyond just disagreement and make it personal and vindictive. Nothing wrong with civil backlash.
     
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  2. flv 

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    The Eagles signed Vick as their 3rd QB behind McNabb and Kolb. He wasn't expected to contribute very much but everyone knew he'd be a big distraction. Banging the table for Vick then shying away from Sam makes no sense to me unless there's another agenda involved.
     
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  3. Alan Well-Known Member

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    BTW, I don't agree with anything that Dungy said he'd do. Nor do I think it was something worth listening too and now that I have I don't want to listen to him come up with an excuse for saying it. So I just won't listen or read anything about or for him on this subject. I'm not going to badmouth him for saying that either.
     
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  4. Alan Well-Known Member

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    One could speculate eh?
     
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  5. flv 

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    There's not really much to speculate on. Dungy's religious views are known and he has previously aligned himself with an organisation that campaigned for marriages to be only for a union of a man and a woman. He's perfectly entitled to those viewpoints. I don't see how Sam is a bigger distraction now than Vick was then. Consequently I don't see this as being about a distraction for the team. I'm glad the media didn't give him a free pass on his comments. Whilst I don't agree with Dungy's views I generally like and respect him. I feel the same way about Rex Ryan, yet Dungy said he would have had problems working with Ryan if they'd been on the same team because of Ryan's 'potty mouth'. Sometimes it comes down to style rather than substance - and that may be an epitaph for this issue.
     
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  6. Alan Well-Known Member

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    I sadi speculate because I didn't think your story about Vick was a good example of his supposed hypocrisy. The level of possible gain in the two incidents aren't even in the same ball park. The known talent that is Vick who could solve your problems at QB is huge. If you view Sam as marginal at best NFL material then your view about the worth of some distraction is hugely different.

    Also, I am aware of his history and while your theory about his motivation is probably true, the example I just gave might also be true. Or both. Whatever the reason, I'm not going to jump to conclusions until I hear it from his own lips and like you, I value his opinion and input when it comes to other subjects.
     
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  7. GreeneCounty Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Just on a coaching level never was impressed with the cat.
     
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  8. beej New Member

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    The older I get the more I crave honesty in people. Whether I agree with them or not, honesty shows backbone and courage especially when going against the grain. I may not always like hearing something, but if I recognize honesty in it as opposed to fearful PC, I respect it.
    JM2C
     
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  9. flv 

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    The comment about Vick was in regards to whether Dungy was being totally honest rather than any hypocrisy. Vick wasn't in football shape and he was likely to be rusty after 2 years inside. He wasn't going to solve anyone's QB problems in 2009. There was very little 1st year potential for the Eagles. The hypocrisy side of the story has been dealt with by others. Personally I feel that just because he was the beneficiary of a brave decision to hire him it doesn't mean he's obligated to brave in every decision or comment that he makes. That said he was brave in supporting Vick when few did. I don't know if Sam can solve anyone's DE problems in 2014. I think he's a better option in 2014 than Vick was in 2009 but I don't think he has the potential 2nd & 3rd year benefits that Vick had. I wouldn't have picked him or Rhaney in the 7th round. I wanted more options at RB, TE, and LB.
     
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  10. RamBill Well-Known Member

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    Sam brushes off Dungy remarks
    • By Jim Thomas

    http://www.stltoday.com/sports/foot...cle_5b43f3f6-2a03-5b6d-9ad6-3a13241589d4.html

    Rams defensive end Michael Sam knew this could happen. Whenever someone with a microphone and some stature made a critical remark about his attempt to become the first openly-gay player to make an NFL roster, Sam knew it could become an instant story. And he would be asked to comment.

    “It is what it is,” said Sam, following the first of two rookie practices leading into the start of full-fledged training camp Friday. “What can you do about it?”

    Nothing really. Not even on Day 1 of Sam’s camp experience as a rookie. Welcome to the fishbowl that is the NFL, and get ready for the ride.

    What made this situation more compelling is the fact that the first barrage, if you will, came from one of the most-respected names in the business — Tony Dungy. Dungy, a former Super Bowl-champion coach with Indianapolis and currently an analyst for NBC television, said earlier this week that he wouldn’t have drafted Sam, partly because it would be a distraction.

    But if Sam was upset or hurt by Dungy’s remarks, it didn’t show Tuesday afternoon.

    “Thank God he wasn’t a St. Louis Rams coach,” Sam joked. “But I have great respect for Tony Dungy. Like everyone in America, everyone is entitled to their own opinions.”

    In an ideal world, the issue of Sam’s sexual orientation will die down eventually. But that probably won’t happen for a while.

    “I hope so, but like I said, my focus is on making this team,” he said. “I don’t really care what people come up and tell me. My job is to make this team, that’s my No. 1 priority.”

    And with a stable of returning defensive ends that includes Robert Quinn, Chris Long, William Hayes, and Eugene Sims that won’t be easy. But that task begins in earnest this week with the start of training camp.

    “I’m so excited to be back with the guys,” Sam said. “Football is fun. It’s just like when we came in for OTAs. It’s just the same. ... We’re cracking jokes like normal.”

    During the month-long break since the end of OTAs in June, Sam has been criss-crossing the country with stops in New York, Los Angeles, and Kansas City.

    “I did a lot of traveling — clearly you guys probably already saw that,” Sam told reporters. “I have trainers in those cities. So, I’ve been working on training, lifting weights, and running.”

    The idea, Sam continued, is “you want to make sure you’ve studied the playbook and you also want to come in great shape. I think I have achieved both by passing my conditioning test.”

    Part of that offseason training was trying to lose weight to be able to run down the field more quickly on special teams. Sam said he has lost 13 pounds since the end of OTAs on June 20. He reported to camp at a lithe 257 pounds and looked quicker during Tuesday’s practice.

    “Everything is faster, and you want to make sure you are at a good weight and at good speed to compete at this level,” he said. “It’s not college anymore, that’s child’s play compared to this.”

    Sam did take at least one break during the break — accepting the Arthur Ashe Award for Courage at the ESPYs awards show last week. Rams coach Jeff Fisher and general manager Les Snead made the trip as well for the telecast in Los Angeles.

    “It was a great award,” Sam said. “I had a great time in LA with the Arthur Ashe Award, but that’s over. I’m focusing on football now.”

    The Rams had enough players on hand Tuesday to do some 11-on-11 work, and Sam found himself playing at right end, instead of the left end spot he played at the University of Missouri.

    “I thought I did pretty good, but I’m not totally satisfied,” he said. “I have not been on the right side in a few years. But, to be available in this league, you have to play both sides to be a D-lineman.”
     
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  11. bluecoconuts Well-Known Member

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    So what is the line then? And when I say both sides have called me out I mean I've been insulted by both sides because I didn't agree with their extreme position, and it's all or nothing a lot of the time with people like that, even though most don't truly practice what they preach. As far as I know there hasn't been a bunch of vindictive things against Dungy, he still has his job no? He's not being swarmed with protesters potentially making him feel unsafe, no? He doesn't have a bunch of hate mail and angry phone calls 24/7 attacking him and his family. So what's the big deal? Everyone has to just accept it out of fear we may hurt Dungy's feelings? That's a crock of crap. If someone says something that people don't agree with then he should be ready to face the disapproval of the masses.
     
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  12. Ramhusker Well-Known Member Pit Boss

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    Do you think there would of been a much more severe backlash if Rex Ryan would of made the same statements on Sam?
     
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  13. bluecoconuts Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea to be honest. I think the "backlash" that Dungy has experienced, which really hasn't been much, is about appropriate for someone who has a history of being anti gay. Rex Ryan has, as far as I know, never done anything like that so there could be less due to people being confused or more because it came out of left field. As far as I can tell Dungy has had a bunch of articles expressing disappointment in his stance and a few things like that, but nothing really truly damaging to his livelihood.
     
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  14. Mackeyser Active Member

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    I'm late to this thread, but have a few contributions.

    Firstly, I evaluate players based on my own film study as well as taking into consideration the evals of folks I respect like Drew and a few others. But mostly, I rely on what I see. I don't pretend to be a pro at this, but I also know a little bit...enough to get some pretty good eval in based on what I see.

    As well, I'm a principles guy. It's ALL about the principle for me. So sometimes I come across a bit strident. That's just my enthusiasm talking.

    Anyway, here goes.

    An update: Christian Bryant and Westbrooks were put on the non-football PUP list. That should make it much easier for Sam to make the team. It doesn't affect my eval, but from a numbers standpoint, it makes the numbers work in Sam's favor if he executes as he should.

    So: when I watched Mizzou, I agreed with a few of the evaluators that was more harsh on Kony Ealy than Michael Sam. I felt that Sam was BY FAR the more complete DE with the better motor and better football presence that translated better to the pros. Now, does and did Ealy have better Combine numbers? You bet. And having Sam do the LB drills was a disaster. But what was lost in evaluating Michael Sam was football. I don't care about Jackson Jeffcoat. No SEC DPOY has been taken out of the first round in the past ten years. Even with concerns of Sam's "tweener" label (which desperately needs to go away because with all of the different defenses in the NFL and ways to use talent, there is no "tweener". There are football players and no way you convince me that Dwight Freeney shouldn't play or the next Dwight Freeney shouldn't because they don't fit some prototypical mold) , the idea that he wasn't worthy of that 1st rounder doesn't wash with me based on the evidence that I saw. Is he stiff? Yes, partially. However, he also uses his extraordinary dip and bend to get past OTs. He's also VERY good with his hands, keeping OTs off of him.

    Now, based on this deep draft, I could have seem him falling to the 2nd or even 3rd round because I saw there being so many players well into the top of the 3rd who could easily be worth a low 1st rounder. And I felt that the pundit's "rounds 3-5" grade were lowballing him a bit based on his Combine, but typically players see a crawl back up once teams go back to the films. Sam didn't. He fell through the floor from as high as a potential 3 to not getting drafted at all. Same guy based on nothing more than a few drills in underwear. Reminded me of Vontaze Burfict's fall from grace... Tackling machine ILB from ASU who ran a 5.09 40 and went undrafted, signed with Cincy and not only won the starting job, but made the Pro Bowl in 2013, iirc, leading the NFL in tackles with 171. Not bad for a 2nd year player who was supposed to be too slow and too much of a head case to be able to play pro ball.

    So, I just don't buy all of this "stuff" about how Sam will be lucky to make this team. I think he will make this team because he's good enough to do it. I think his talent is grossly underestimated by most evaluators and fans, alike. When I look for the details...hand position, how he comes out of his stance, stride, time to the QB... it's all exceptional. When I timed Michael Sam to the QB, if the QB didn't have a chance to take off because Ealy didn't contain, Michael Sam got the QB on average in 2.0 seconds. That's just sick. That includes defeating blockers and NONE of those plays includes free shots at the QB or taking on a TE.

    Thus, most of my advocacy is about Michael Sam the football player and I think we got a dang STEAL with a compensatory pick in the 7th round. I expect no one to agree with me and that's fine.

    Secondly, I think there's a bigger issue with homophobia in the NFL. It isn't just Chris Kluwe being unemployed. It isn't just Brendan Ayenbadejo being unemployed, both for simply advocating for gay rights. It isn't just Kerry Rhodes getting ousted from the league after being outed when he was one of the top 5 Free Safeties in the league. It's the attitude of coaches like Mike Priefer and Dungy and front offices all across the NFL that would rather let a guy with a 3rd to 5th round grade (and film showing better skills, imho) go undrafted, but WILL take chances on Cassius Marsh out of UCLA without the production in the 4th round, but who's still a "tweener" and who's a headcase to boot.

    Lastly, the most important thing is that Michael Sam isn't the first gay player in the NFL. He's the first OPENLY gay player. So, let's just acknowledge that likely a number of teams ALREADY have gay players who are waiting and watching to see how this turns out before they come out. Gay players have been in the NFL since the NFL was the NFL. Vince Lombardi was known for coaching and protecting a gay player and some of the players knew he was gay. I have an inkling that much of this has more to do with corporate sponsorship BS and some Lord of the Flies letting the inmates run the asylum stuff than that the NFL has any feelings about gay players one way or another.

    I've said (and it's usually one of my sigs) that Sports are the crucible in which we distill human virtue. The distillate remains are human vice. One of the human virtues of football is that when done right, it's a meritocracy. Being gay shouldn't ever make a difference. One day, a woman will cross that barrier, too. Probably a kicker, but who knows? I know if a woman can kick a 70 yard field goal in windy conditions versus some of the crappy kickers we've had, do we really have to make a scrotum a requirement when winning is the goal? I shouldn't like to think so.

    Also, when players were talked to about the realities of playing with a gay player, straight players found out a few things... like a) straight players look at others players genitalia as much if not more than gay players do. Neither do it in a sexual way. b) Players think of team members as family, so gay players aren't attracted to teammates. Uniformly, gay players say it just doesn't occur to them to be attracted to teammates. c) Any concerns they have they can put to rest because by the time a pro player has been in the league a few years, if he's played High School, College and professional football, chances are at some point, he's played with AT LEAST one gay player based on the law of averages. So, he's showered with a gay player, tackled and been tackled by a gay player, etc.

    I said after evaluating Michael Sam to a good friend that worst case he should go no later than the 3rd and only because of the depth of this great draft, but that I didn't think he'd be drafted. I think if not for Fisher who's VERY plugged into the NFL, Michael Sam would have gone undrafted. No team after the Rams looked to be remotely prepared to take him or capable of handling the situation. And to Fisher's credit, he and the entire organization have handled the Sam drafting with aplomb.

    TL;dr I think we got an absolute steal. I think Michael Sam makes plays in this Gregg Williams D and on special teams. I think his draft stock fell solely because he is gay and not based on his football abilities nor how they project to the professional game. I think the NFL has issues with "the gay" that transcend Michael Sam that have touched multiple players over the last few years and the NFL needs to get clear on principle.

    Anyway, that's my take. I realize I'm probably way out on the north end of my own island when it comes to Michael Sam, but it'll be great for everyone when I'm right about him being as good as I've seen him be on film. :D
     
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  15. DR RAM Rams Lifer

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    Dungy wasn't in touch with his own kin.... Will Sam make it? To me is isn't a ? About courage.
     
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  16. DR RAM Rams Lifer

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    He almost seems oblivious to EVERYTHING.

    Wake up, dude.
     
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  17. Alan Well-Known Member

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    I must not be reading your previous posts correctly because I find nothing I don't agree with here. :)
     
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    Last edited: Jul 23, 2014
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  18. Alan Well-Known Member

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    It's great to be talking with you again Mac!
    As for your post, great stuff and as usual we're on the same page about it being ALL about principles.
     
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  19. Thordaddy Binding you with ancient logic

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    Nice read Mac but I don't agree with your player evaluation talent wise,and to indict the league to that expent is an overeach,Jeff Fisher's a great guy but he took the guy with a compensatory pick and if Sam was a third round talent in his eyes he slept on the pick for four rounds ,coaches usually get skewered for same round gaffs.

    Pundits and amateurs rated Sam like you did, pro personel spoke loud and clear on where he should have been drafted if at all.

    All that said I didn't TL;dr you (y) but I refuse to accept the blanket indictment of the league, I'll BET there is a gay guy on 90% of the rosters in the league and the coach knows it, so the step to draft an openly gay one isn't monumental at all.

    Increasingly in this country people are hiding their thoughts because of the sort of backlash Dungy is getting the chilling effect is sad,it's gotten to the point the internet behind made up names is where you go to find honest discussion and rarely anywhere else.

    The aversion to distraction Dungy speaks of is being born out by the media storm this is causing and HOW LONG before some self serving "journalist" had to go stick a microphone in front of the kids face to get some more dirty laundry ?

    I wish the kid well ,he'll have a better shot at making it though if the media lets him alone and doesn't think it's NEWS what Tony Dungy had top say about it,it's not ,it's gossip.
     
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  20. Ramhusker Well-Known Member Pit Boss

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    If you go by blind stats, there are probably around 25 gay players in the NFL. That's assuming a lot but feasible. Interesting to see how many will indeed come out by season's end.
     
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