The On Side Kick

[Thordaddy]

Am I wrong or could Tru have called for a fair catch?

 

[Ramhusker]

I think so if the ball hadn't hit the ground. I can't remember if he skipped that one up or not.

 

[bluecoconuts]

He could have as I believe it was a pop fly, but I doubt that crossed his mind. It wouldn't have crossed my mind either, I think everyone was taken by surprise there, he was just reacting. I don't think he returned kicks or punts in college either (but I could be wrong there) which made it even more unnatural for him.

 

[Thordaddy]

I think so if the ball hadn't hit the ground. I can't remember if he skipped that one up or not.

It was a "pop up" so I thought he could have , add that and the eschewed FG and we have a game, if Long keeps going on the offsides forcing an "unabated to the QB" instead of the "freeplay" where Fisher sez JJ got caught watching the "flags fly" instead of covering, we didn't HAVE to lose and so much of this was youthful inexperience.

 

[Thordaddy]

He could have as I believe it was a pop fly, but I doubt that crossed his mind. It wouldn't have crossed my mind either, I think everyone was taken by surprise there, he was just reacting. I don't think he returned kicks or punts in college either (but I could be wrong there) which made it even more unnatural for him.

Isn't it the coaches job to impress situational decision making ?

I think if I was coaching special teams we'd go over that.

 

[Ram Quixote]

I don't believe fair catch rules apply on the kickoff. The ball becomes live once it goes 10 yards, thus the receiving team gets no first shot at the ball. It would also be a free-for-all on a squib kick, assuming the receiving team lets the ball roll without taking possession.

 

[bluecoconuts]

Well true it's on the coaches to teach everything they can, but there's only so little time. Plus it's easy to look back and say they should have been ready, but really when it's the heat of the moment a lot of times it comes down to just reaction, and it's time consuming to practice surprise onside kicks all the time (since you can't really practice the element of surprise other than throwing one in every so often)..

Murphy's law man, no plan survives contact with the enemy.

 

[Thordaddy]

Well true it's on the coaches to teach everything they can, but there's only so little time. Plus it's easy to look back and say they should have been ready, but really when it's the heat of the moment a lot of times it comes down to just reaction, and it's time consuming to practice surprise onside kicks all the time (since you can't really practice the element of surprise other than throwing one in every so often)..

Murphy's law man, no plan survives contact with the enemy.

From wiki answers:

Yes. Any kick, punt or kickoff, can be fair caught. One major difference between fair catching a punt and fair catching a kickoff is that the kickoff is a free kick. Where a punt returner deep in his own territory may call for a fair catch and let the ball bounce on the ground in the hope that the ball will bounce into the end zone for a touch back, the kick returner must catch the ball due to the fact that a kickoff is a free kick and the team that recovers a free kick is awarded possession of the ball.

Sure it's looking backwards but on side kicks are pretty common and ST coaches don't exactly have a 50 page playbook to put in.
It's all they do,I'll bet somewhere some special teams coach teaches it IF ours doesn't.
I think I remember a rule that also goes if you fair catch a free kick of any type and time has expired you are allowed a FG try. ( Don Shula pulled that in a game and wowed a league full of coaches who didn't know about it)

It was a mental error and if you want to excuse or decide to overlook it ,you can, but between that, the decision to eschew the FG to go on 4th down and the brain fart on the free play where Long jumped offside, we GAVE the game away.GB played lights out and most of the time we played well enough to beat a team playing THAT WELL, but as often happens the team that makes the mistakes lost.
I'm calling attention to those mistakes,not excusing them ,but saying they were and IF I was coaching that team ,I'd be preaching hammering the point that keeping your head IN THE GAME is what separates winners and losers at the highest level, IOW teaching a young talented team that ,HEY we COULD have won that if we'd concentrated on situations better, pick your lower lip up get your head out and pay a little more attention.

Like I said in another post ,IF Long keeps going on that play ,he probably gets an unabated to the QB call and GB doesn't get the "free play" so even though some hang the blame for that on JJ, he's a rook and Long's mistake aught not go unnoticed.

In SUMMATION,I reject the idea we couldn't have won this game EVEN IF GB plays well.We could have, we need to get back to work in THAT realization admit out mistakes learn from them and keep getting better.
BUT and it's a BIG BUT the coaches need to look at themselves as well and honestly evaluate whether THEY couldn't have done better too.

 

[DR RAM]

Yes. He could have fair caught it, but you don't have a lot of time to process that, and then perform it.

 

[Thordaddy]

Yes. He could have fair caught it, but you don't have a lot of time to process that, and then perform it.

No that;s right and WHY you have to go over it in practice so JMO that was mostly a coaching problem.

 

[DR RAM]

Yes. He could have fair caught it, but you don't have a lot of time to process that, and then perform it.

No that;s right and WHY you have to go over it in practice so JMO that was mostly a coaching problem.

I wouldn't sit here and assume that they haven't. In fact, if I did assume, I'd assume that they have. I've been on the hands team, and I've had the ball kicked to me on an onside kick. It scares the crap out of you even if you are expecting it, and Tru certainly wasn't.

 

[ramsince62]

I think so if the ball hadn't hit the ground. I can't remember if he skipped that one up or not.

It was a "pop up" so I thought he could have , add that and the eschewed FG and we have a game, if Long keeps going on the offsides forcing an "unabated to the QB" instead of the "freeplay" where Fisher sez JJ got caught watching the "flags fly" instead of covering, we didn't HAVE to lose and so much of this was youthful inexperience.

Correct, and young teams are going to make mistakes, it's all part of the process. The thing is, I think a lot of folks are forgetting just how young and inexperenced this team is. Some folks were talking about "re-evaluating their expectations"....me, heck, they've already exceeded mine. This is a fine young team and at the cost of repeating myself......"Just Wait Until Next Year"

 

[Thordaddy]

I think so if the ball hadn't hit the ground. I can't remember if he skipped that one up or not.

It was a "pop up" so I thought he could have , add that and the eschewed FG and we have a game, if Long keeps going on the offsides forcing an "unabated to the QB" instead of the "freeplay" where Fisher sez JJ got caught watching the "flags fly" instead of covering, we didn't HAVE to lose and so much of this was youthful inexperience.

Correct, and young teams are going to make mistakes, it's all part of the process. The thing is, I think a lot of folks are forgetting just how young and inexperenced this team is. Some folks were talking about "re-evaluating their expectations"....me, heck, they've already exceeded mine. This is a fine young team and at the cost of repeating myself......"Just Wait Until Next Year"

Yeah they are young and that mistake was something that HAPPENS even to experienced teams,but the surest way to repeat a mistake is to rationalize it or excuse it. These guys are professionals paid well and their performance is IMO subject to critique.
It was an error, Tru and the rest of the team need to learn from it and BTW I'm NOT calling for anyones head, JUST calling the possibiities into question because point of fact is Tru could have protected himself and gotten us some pretty damned good field position IF he'd made the smart play there.
It's one of three errors in that game that combined had they NOT happened IMO this team could easily have won,and basicaly my point is, FUZZ NEXT YEAR,these guys are GOOD ENOUGH physically to compete NOW and LEARNING from these mistakes can only make them better.
I'm NOT picking on anyones little sister,just posing questions about how we could have done better.

 

[Ram Quixote]

I think so if the ball hadn't hit the ground. I can't remember if he skipped that one up or not.

It was a "pop up" so I thought he could have , add that and the eschewed FG and we have a game, if Long keeps going on the offsides forcing an "unabated to the QB" instead of the "freeplay" where Fisher sez JJ got caught watching the "flags fly" instead of covering, we didn't HAVE to lose and so much of this was youthful inexperience.

Correct, and young teams are going to make mistakes, it's all part of the process. The thing is, I think a lot of folks are forgetting just how young and inexperenced this team is. Some folks were talking about "re-evaluating their expectations"....me, heck, they've already exceeded mine. This is a fine young team and at the cost of repeating myself......"Just Wait Until Next Year"

Yeah they are young and that mistake was something that HAPPENS even to experienced teams,but the surest way to repeat a mistake is to rationalize it or excuse it. These guys are professionals paid well and their performance is IMO subject to critique.
It was an error, Tru and the rest of the team need to learn from it and BTW I'm NOT calling for anyones head, JUST calling the possibiities into question because point of fact is Tru could have protected himself and gotten us some pretty damned good field position IF he'd made the smart play there.
It's one of three errors in that game that combined had they NOT happened IMO this team could easily have won,and basicaly my point is, FUZZ NEXT YEAR,these guys are GOOD ENOUGH physically to compete NOW and LEARNING from these mistakes can only make them better.
I'm NOT picking on anyones little sister,just posing questions about how we could have done better.

Then let's dissect the decision-making on that play. This was going to be a routine kick-off; no one expected the onside kick. So now Tru (a rookie who's task here is get in the way of tacklers) is watching the ball come to him. "I better catch it!" There aren't many veterans who are going to think fair catch on an onside kick, which is typically bounced in any case.

In every win this year, Fisher would tell you they need to improve on _____. He's not going to tell you different about yesterday. But to say the Rams could "easily win" without those 3 mistakes does not take into account GB and Rodgers.

I'm not one to make less of our offense's efforts, or our defense's, but even taking away the big plays on the offsides, the Packers still have the ball. And Rodgers was so hot ... thinking ... the Ram DBs might as well have been so many cheese on toast, grilling on the dome turf. I'm not saying the Rams couldn't win, but they certainly wouldn't have won "easily."

 

[Thordaddy]

I think so if the ball hadn't hit the ground. I can't remember if he skipped that one up or not.

It was a "pop up" so I thought he could have , add that and the eschewed FG and we have a game, if Long keeps going on the offsides forcing an "unabated to the QB" instead of the "freeplay" where Fisher sez JJ got caught watching the "flags fly" instead of covering, we didn't HAVE to lose and so much of this was youthful inexperience.

Correct, and young teams are going to make mistakes, it's all part of the process. The thing is, I think a lot of folks are forgetting just how young and inexperenced this team is. Some folks were talking about "re-evaluating their expectations"....me, heck, they've already exceeded mine. This is a fine young team and at the cost of repeating myself......"Just Wait Until Next Year"

Yeah they are young and that mistake was something that HAPPENS even to experienced teams,but the surest way to repeat a mistake is to rationalize it or excuse it. These guys are professionals paid well and their performance is IMO subject to critique.
It was an error, Tru and the rest of the team need to learn from it and BTW I'm NOT calling for anyones head, JUST calling the possibiities into question because point of fact is Tru could have protected himself and gotten us some pretty damned good field position IF he'd made the smart play there.
It's one of three errors in that game that combined had they NOT happened IMO this team could easily have won,and basicaly my point is, FUZZ NEXT YEAR,these guys are GOOD ENOUGH physically to compete NOW and LEARNING from these mistakes can only make them better.
I'm NOT picking on anyones little sister,just posing questions about how we could have done better.

Then let's dissect the decision-making on that play. This was going to be a routine kick-off; no one expected the onside kick. So now Tru (a rookie who's task here is get in the way of tacklers) is watching the ball come to him. "I better catch it!" There aren't many veterans who are going to think fair catch on an onside kick, which is typically bounced in any case.

In every win this year, Fisher would tell you they need to improve on _____. He's not going to tell you different about yesterday. But to say the Rams could "easily win" without those 3 mistakes does not take into account GB and Rodgers.

I'm not one to make less of our offense's efforts, or our defense's, but even taking away the big plays on the offsides, the Packers still have the ball. And Rodgers was so hot ... thinking ... the Ram DBs might as well have been so many cheese on toast, grilling on the dome turf. I'm not saying the Rams couldn't win, but they certainly wouldn't have won "easily."

Well the word "easily " was used there to connote it would not be difficult to imagine a win but for those three mistakes.

As I "dissect " the play and special teams coaching in general,first there are NO "routine" KO's,a free ball is always a special situation so every person needs to understand what he's going to do IF the ball comes to him and one of those things is a fair catch.Tru is a pro, his failure to execute a fair catch is fair game,it is inarguable that had he done so he CAN'T be hit legally.That he froze up is a given , why he did is anyone's guess .
If I were his coach, and BTW I am a coach if he didn't know I'd take the heat ,if he did know he could fair catch,if I'd coached him on it, he'd be graded for it. Either way it was a mistake or an error whichever word you want to use.
It cost us 3 points for them, and the ball on our 40,our special teams got caught with their pants down JUST like they caught someone with their pants down on a fake field goal.They were lauded for the fake FG, I was part of the group cheering it. NOW when they get owned, I admit it.
I also have profound problems with not taking the easy FG and going on 4th down,if there is anything worse than taking a FG when you want a TD, it's taking NOTHING.In the process of wanting to avoid what would be a minor victory for the GB defense , we gave them a major victory. There are TIMES in a game when it's dictated that you need to put it on the line when you are down 10-3 or 7-3 in the first half isn't IMO THE TIME.

I don't like the decision ,I'm a huge Fisher fan, but I don't give passes to people because I'm their fan,it's HOW I see it.

In closing these kids are GONNA screw up at times, but for those screw ups IMO we are superior physically . and YES I account for Rogers, that it was Rogers and I still think without the mental lapses we could have won impresses me mightily.
Hell he threw for six TD's against Houston last week,we held him to three and ONE came on a free play where a rookie spaced,I'm ecstatic about these kids possibilities, we won't face another Qb as good as that one again this year.
Yeah I said it Rogers is better than Brady, I hope we see him in the playoffs

 

[Ram Quixote]

I still think you're putting too much on a rookie.

1. Unexpected onside kick -- Fisher said they were all surprised. It's one thing to be prepared for the unexpected, another to execute.

2. An unusual kick -- most are dribbled or kicked down to create the high bounce, which prevents the possibility of a fair catch.

3. In the split-second in which Tru realizes it's an onsides, and the 2-3 seconds he has before the ball gets there, does he even have time to raise his hand high enough to signal fair catch and then catch it?

4. With the Packers moving in to separate him from the ball, and certainly succeeding (they wouldn't stop in any case), what about the refs? Will they allow the fair catch, called late and in an unusual circumstance?

That's quite a bit to process. I mean, yeah. It would have been ultra-cool for Tru to have called a fair catch to foil the onside kick. So much that we would all have been stunned. When did you think of the fair catch?

 

[Thordaddy]

I still think you're putting too much on a rookie.

1. Unexpected onside kick -- Fisher said they were all surprised. It's one thing to be prepared for the unexpected, another to execute.

2. An unusual kick -- most are dribbled or kicked down to create the high bounce, which prevents the possibility of a fair catch.

3. In the split-second in which Tru realizes it's an onsides, and the 2-3 seconds he has before the ball gets there, does he even have time to raise his hand high enough to signal fair catch and then catch it?

4. With the Packers moving in to separate him from the ball, and certainly succeeding (they wouldn't stop in any case), what about the refs? Will they allow the fair catch, called late and in an unusual circumstance?

That's quite a bit to process. I mean, yeah. It would have been ultra-cool for Tru to have called a fair catch to foil the onside kick. So much that we would all have been stunned. When did you think of the fair catch?

I'm not putting anything "on a rookie? I didn't put him on the field.
What he had to process is not that much IMO if he's been prepared and as a pro,not a HS player not a Pop Warner player a guy who a veteran lost his job in favor of, he has to know what he can do and the time frame is really pretty elongated compared to the time frame of baseball players ,tennis players, I think some are giving passes here.
I can't imagine why when it would occur to me would matter,WHEN it would occur to me is in training camp IF it was my job to teach these guys.
Everyone agrees that it was a mistake,I'm making a big deal out of it because it is, it eventuated in a score .I Hope Tru is reading this thread, I hope he sez,"yeah I have GOT TO do better " I hope his coach is saying "I didn't go over that enough to get the kid ready", the reason I am adamant about it is because if it happens again there will be a lynch mob, and I won't have to lead it, in fact I probably won't.
We are looking for a championship team every place we don't behave like one has to be rectified or we're kidding ourselves about getting there.
It's a teachable moment, and I'm sayin' teach, if ya don't, expect to fail again .

 

[Ram Quixote]

Is it reasonable to expect a fair catch on an onside kick, a play that in all likelihood has never happened before?

It seems more reasonable to just wish he had been able to hold onto the ball while 2 opposing players hit him high and low.

 

[Thordaddy]

Is it reasonable to expect a fair catch on an onside kick, a play that in all likelihood has never happened before?

It seems more reasonable to just wish he had been able to hold onto the ball while 2 opposing players hit him high and low.

What is "reasonable" obviously dictates that the opposite is "unreasonable".
For me it's NOT unreasonable to expect a special teams coach to have his players ready for the relatively low number of alternative occurrences, we got had, surprised, call it what you will, what year in his career Tru is in isn't ALL that important .
Again this isn't Mike Martz's playbook.,know the rules, know the options, teach them ,the last thing I want to BE surprised on/beaten by is an oversight in preparation, which JMO this looks like.
Once more, if you are a Special Teams Coach,you should never be able to be called out like this by a lowly poster on a message board,it's your job to not be out thought by amateurs.

I don't think it ever serves the objectives of people who strive to be at the top to hold them to anything but the highest standards. Without exception every winning program I've ever heard described have one thing in common,attention to detail,this is a detail,needs attention.

If the same play happens NEXT week, do you want him to fair catch or do the same thing he did ? It's the question I ask myself ,it's the question he and his coach need to answer. If I say it's OK he didn't last time it decreases the chance he does next time. I got nothin else to say here, fix it if you think it was an error ,if you don't, leave it the same,I think I've said what I would do enough times.
I think I hear the bagpipes.

 

[Ram Quixote]

I can't imagine why when it would occur to me would matter,WHEN it would occur to me is in training camp IF it was my job to teach these guys.
Everyone agrees that it was a mistake,

I don't agree. I still believe you're expecting an incredibly heads-up play. One that would be talked about and shown on highlights.

I'll tell you why it matters when you thought about a fair catch. Because if you didn't think of it right then, you're simply second-guessing the guy who was on the spot. You're implying he wasn't coached correctly when you can't know that.