Softli on Bradford's deep ball

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[rp3]http://icestream.dev-cms.com:8000/stl/2012/08/08152012165700.mp3[/rp3]
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[kurtfaulk]

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it's hard to get the deep ball right if they don't practice it. hopefully they do between now and the 1st game of the season.

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[DR RAM]

Sam threw one deep ball in the game, his receiver couldn't have been more covered, actually being held at the time of the throw, and Sam got crushed while throwing it. Is that enough to judge him in the first preseason game? Gee wiz. That ball was either going to be perfect, or out of bounds.

 

[Username]

Tonight the Rams are back at it? 5:30? Wtf is he talking about? Late practice?

Sam threw one deep ball in the game, his receiver couldn't have been more covered, actually being held at the time of the throw, and Sam got crushed while throwing it. Is that enough to judge him in the first preseason game? Gee wiz. That ball was either going to be perfect, or out of bounds.

Exactly. One fucking deep ball, and he got his arm hit. The rest were from Clemons. The thing about throwing the "deep ball" is you have to have blocking and receivers that can get open down field. I believe we have one of those things taken care of. The other? I'm not so sure.

I still believe we will see our fair share of deep balls in this offense. Most coming off of PA. 13's gonna have em playing 10 yards off the line. Bet.

 

[Ramhusker]

Well, I hope this team can get it together with the deep ball because I've been underwhelmed by Sam's deep ball since being a Ram. I know some of it was being a rookie in 2010, mostly the ankle in 2011, and protection concerns on and off along the way but I just don't think teams fear the deep ball from the Rams and THAT has to change.

 

[-X-]

Well, I hope this team can get it together with the deep ball because I've been underwhelmed by Sam's deep ball since being a Ram. I know some of it was being a rookie in 2010, mostly the ankle in 2011, and protection concerns on and off along the way but I just don't think teams fear the deep ball from the Rams and THAT has to change.

Did you see this after I made it? I'm not saying it refutes anything you said. I'm just wondering if you analyzed it.
This is *every* throw he made over 15 yards (last year).

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhLDkYravNA[/youtube]

 

[Anonymous]

Well, I hope this team can get it together with the deep ball because I've been underwhelmed by Sam's deep ball since being a Ram. I know some of it was being a rookie in 2010, mostly the ankle in 2011, and protection concerns on and off along the way but I just don't think teams fear the deep ball from the Rams and THAT has to change.

Did you see this after I made it? I'm not saying it refutes anything you said. I'm just wondering if you analyzed it.
This is *every* throw he made over 15 yards (last year).

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhLDkYravNA[/youtube]

Interesting take on this from a regular campster:

CoachO

IMHO, the issues Bradford are having with the "deep ball" have nothing to do with his ankle, his arm strength, or anything PHYSICAL. It's not about his lack of time, or too much pressure. Although those things can have an impact on his confidence.

To me, if you look at some of the better "deep" passers, it has little to do with how far can they throw it. It's usually about WHEN you throw it. Montana was NEVER accused of having exceptional arm strength, but he was one of the best ever completing the long pass.

From watching Bradford, and Clemens for that matter, the biggest issue is in the timing of their release. They tend to wait til the WR CLEARS the DB, before actually throwing the ball, and then it becomes a matter of guessing how far to throw it. Most of the time, the pass ends up underthrown.

When you really look at MOST of the deep passes that are successful, the ball doesn't have to be thrown 60 yards in the air. Most of the time its thrown about 30-40, because the QB has the ability to anticipate the WR getting on top of the DB, and throws it early enough to let the WR run under it.

In Bradford's case, when he holds onto the ball, he ends up having to try to force it, and isn't able to put enough air under it to let the WR make a play on the ball.

 

[bluecoconuts]

That's probably because he knows that our WR's can't win those battles...

 

[-X-]

That's probably because he knows that our WR's can't win those battles...

That probably has something to do with his past, sure. When guys like Danario and Clayton were in there, he'd just throw it. More often than not, right on the money. And if it wasn't, it wasn't far off the mark. Guys who are successful throwing deep often have more than just a part-time Alexander and a full-time Gibson at their disposal. I mean, it's glaring. They also have more than a few months in the same system. Which, as it turns out, is kinda beneficial. Or so I hear.

 

[bluecoconuts]

That's probably because he knows that our WR's can't win those battles...

That probably has something to do with his past, sure. When guys like Danario and Clayton were in there, he'd just throw it. More often than not, right on the money. And if it wasn't, it wasn't far off the mark. Guys who are successful throwing deep often have more than just a part-time Alexander and a full-time Gibson at their disposal. I mean, it's glaring. They also have more than a few months in the same system. Which, as it turns out, is kinda beneficial. Or so I hear.

Yeah, once he gets the timing and comfort level with Quick and Givens that he needs, I expect to see a lot more deep passes being completed.

 

[Anonymous]

That's probably because he knows that our WR's can't win those battles...

That probably has something to do with his past, sure. When guys like Danario and Clayton were in there, he'd just throw it. More often than not, right on the money. And if it wasn't, it wasn't far off the mark. Guys who are successful throwing deep often have more than just a part-time Alexander and a full-time Gibson at their disposal. I mean, it's glaring. They also have more than a few months in the same system. Which, as it turns out, is kinda beneficial. Or so I hear.

I see this differently. Or maybe not. It links up with Venturi's take on Bradford. He says Bradford waits on receivers to get open instead of having the anticipation to throw to where they will be, before they make their breaks.

BTW, that is precisely why people said Luck was a very advanced qb. He already had that in college.

So anyway it's not just the individual WRs though that could help. It's the kind of mental feel for a type of pass--where you can throw on anticipation to spots, not just watch for guys to break.

Venturi also said that's learnable.

Which fits in with what a lot of national "expert" types said in comparing Bradford and Luck--that Bradford may have the higher ceiling.

 

[-X-]

I dunno. That's not what I saw. When he had reliable targets, he didn't wait on them to get open. I base that off of watching him over and over and over.

Chemistry and trust is paramount.




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[bluecoconuts]

That's probably because he knows that our WR's can't win those battles...

That probably has something to do with his past, sure. When guys like Danario and Clayton were in there, he'd just throw it. More often than not, right on the money. And if it wasn't, it wasn't far off the mark. Guys who are successful throwing deep often have more than just a part-time Alexander and a full-time Gibson at their disposal. I mean, it's glaring. They also have more than a few months in the same system. Which, as it turns out, is kinda beneficial. Or so I hear.

I see this differently. Or maybe not. It links up with Venturi's take on Bradford. He says Bradford waits on receivers to get open instead of having the anticipation to throw to where they will be, before they make their breaks.

BTW, that is precisely why people said Luck was a very advanced qb. He already had that in college.

So anyway it's not just the individual WRs though that could help. It's the kind of mental feel for a type of pass--where you can throw on anticipation to spots, not just watch for guys to break.

Venturi also said that's learnable.

Which fits in with what a lot of national "expert" types said in comparing Bradford and Luck--that Bradford may have the higher ceiling.

A big part of doing that is having receivers good enough to get those deep balls. In college Bradford did it plenty. With his groups of receivers he's never had someone who can be that deep threat, when he does have it, you see him make those throws. If Lloyd was in St Louis all year, and Bradford had time to practice with him, he probably would have completed those deep passes too. I wouldn't blame Bradford for waiting, because most of the time they don't get that separation. So he would just be throwing a bunch of deep passes to the turf.

 

[Anonymous]

That's probably because he knows that our WR's can't win those battles...

That probably has something to do with his past, sure. When guys like Danario and Clayton were in there, he'd just throw it. More often than not, right on the money. And if it wasn't, it wasn't far off the mark. Guys who are successful throwing deep often have more than just a part-time Alexander and a full-time Gibson at their disposal. I mean, it's glaring. They also have more than a few months in the same system. Which, as it turns out, is kinda beneficial. Or so I hear.

I see this differently. Or maybe not. It links up with Venturi's take on Bradford. He says Bradford waits on receivers to get open instead of having the anticipation to throw to where they will be, before they make their breaks.

BTW, that is precisely why people said Luck was a very advanced qb. He already had that in college.

So anyway it's not just the individual WRs though that could help. It's the kind of mental feel for a type of pass--where you can throw on anticipation to spots, not just watch for guys to break.

Venturi also said that's learnable.

Which fits in with what a lot of national "expert" types said in comparing Bradford and Luck--that Bradford may have the higher ceiling.

A big part of doing that is having receivers good enough to get those deep balls. In college Bradford did it plenty. With his groups of receivers he's never had someone who can be that deep threat, when he does have it, you see him make those throws. If Lloyd was in St Louis all year, and Bradford had time to practice with him, he probably would have completed those deep passes too. I wouldn't blame Bradford for waiting, because most of the time they don't get that separation. So he would just be throwing a bunch of deep passes to the turf.

If you wait you don't complete the pass whether they get separation or not.

And not counting 2010 for obvious reasons, Bradford has had guys who can catch em past 25 yards. Clayton, Avery (preseason only), and Alexander (though DX had inconsistent hands). What I see when I watch him throw long is a guy who's inconsistent. And I think anticipation has a lot to do with it.

 

[bluecoconuts]

Avery hardly counts, and Clayton was such a small sample size. He hit him pretty regularly. DX hardly gets into practice and had inconsistent hands, so that makes nailing the timing harder. Bradford has an accurate deep ball, early in the season he was second only to Rodgers. He needs consistent receivers to be able to hit consistent deep passes.

 

[Anonymous]

Avery hardly counts, and Clayton was such a small sample size. He hit him pretty regularly. DX hardly gets into practice and had inconsistent hands, so that makes nailing the timing harder. Bradford has an accurate deep ball, early in the season he was second only to Rodgers. He needs consistent receivers to be able to hit consistent deep passes.

He only has one long pass to Clayton. He was throwing to Avery most of camp till Avery got hurt in preseason game 3. DX was in 7 games. The question is not accuracy, of course, per se. And if it's not a deep mental habit (the kind Venturi alludes to) then why doesn't he suddenly adjust to WRs who DO make effective cuts and are there? So far, that's all of OTAs and training camp with a lot of guys, including Givens and Smith but also Pettis (who can catch anything, covered or not). Somewhere there's an issue. It's either "hey wait why haven't I realized yet these are different receivers" or it's not being deeply attuned to the anticipation thing yet.

 

[DR RAM]

Avery hardly counts, and Clayton was such a small sample size. He hit him pretty regularly. DX hardly gets into practice and had inconsistent hands, so that makes nailing the timing harder. Bradford has an accurate deep ball, early in the season he was second only to Rodgers. He needs consistent receivers to be able to hit consistent deep passes.

Word.

 

[Faceplant]

I can get on board with the anticipation thing. Sure, you have to trust your WRs, but sometimes you have to throw them open also. When you release earlier it actually gives your wr a better chance to run under the ball and gives the db less to work with. When you hold the ball, the db eventually will turn his head and look for the release and then track it. If the ball is out early, the wr can track it, and by the time the db looks, it is usually too late on a well thrown ball.

 

[-X-]

If you wait you don't complete the pass whether they get separation or not.

And not counting 2010 for obvious reasons, Bradford has had guys who can catch em past 25 yards. Clayton, Avery (preseason only), and Alexander (though DX had inconsistent hands). What I see when I watch him throw long is a guy who's inconsistent. And I think anticipation has a lot to do with it.

Catching them past 25 yards is pretty much why receivers are in the NFL to begin with. Of the three you listed, two are where? Alexander is the one primary deep threat he's had at his disposal, and when the two of them are on the same page, where's the anticipation or timing concerns? Honestly, I don't see it. Not with DX, and not with Clayton when he was in. Throwing open was basically what he did with them. That, and back-shoulder fades.

Let's put it in perspective too. 26 starts, 1 truncated offseason, 2 coordinators, a merry-go-round of receivers, and questionable protection. And yet when people 'analyze' Bradford's deep ball, they come up with the effect while ignoring the cause. Of course there's going to be inconsistency. Inconsistency is one of the ingredients in the offense.

Is he a finished product? Of course not.
Are there reasons for his stunted develop to this point? No question.

Now he's got three more new receivers to go along with the returning guys who didn't play 16 games with him either. It would be nice if he knew how fast they were already, how to anticipate their ability to break on the ball, and already trusted them to be where everyone here knows he can throw it. That's gonna take a little bit of time until he finds a guy that he's comfortable throwing to who's blanketed. That's really my only knock on Bradford at this point. He just doesn't like throwing up contested balls all that much. That, I think, is because he doesn't want to be the cause of a turnover; and that, by extension, makes the receivers look bad. All I'm saying is, let him hook up with a receiver he trusts (or two) and all of this goes away.

 

[PhxRam]

If you wait you don't complete the pass whether they get separation or not.

And not counting 2010 for obvious reasons, Bradford has had guys who can catch em past 25 yards. Clayton, Avery (preseason only), and Alexander (though DX had inconsistent hands). What I see when I watch him throw long is a guy who's inconsistent. And I think anticipation has a lot to do with it.

Catching them past 25 yards is pretty much why receivers are in the NFL to begin with. Of the three you listed, two are where? Alexander is the one primary deep threat he's had at his disposal, and when the two of them are on the same page, where's the anticipation or timing concerns? Honestly, I don't see it. Not with DX, and not with Clayton when he was in. Throwing open was basically what he did with them. That, and back-shoulder fades.

Let's put it in perspective too. 26 starts, 1 truncated offseason, 2 coordinators, a merry-go-round of receivers, and questionable protection. And yet when people 'analyze' Bradford's deep ball, they come up with the effect while ignoring the cause. Of course there's going to be inconsistency. Inconsistency is one of the ingredients in the offense.

Is he a finished product? Of course not.
Are there reasons for his stunted develop to this point? No question.

Now he's got three more new receivers to go along with the returning guys who didn't play 16 games with him either. It would be nice if he knew how fast they were already, how to anticipate their ability to break on the ball, and already trusted them to be where everyone here knows he can throw it. That's gonna take a little bit of time until he finds a guy that he's comfortable throwing to who's blanketed. That's really my only knock on Bradford at this point. He just doesn't like throwing up contested balls all that much. That, I think, is because he doesn't want to be the cause of a turnover; and that, by extension, makes the receivers look bad. All I'm saying is, let him hook up with a receiver he trusts (or two) and all of this goes away.

Common sense tells me you are right.

My eyeballs tell something different.

I also thought ryan leaf was going to be great, if that tells you anything.