Sam Bradford...the forgotten athlete....

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-X-

Medium-sized Lebowski
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35,576
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The Dude
I thought the Spagnuolo whistle was actually a horn and it was 2.5 seconds........one of us is wrong. I think we should find out. It irritated the crap out of me when I heard about that, it's just the stupidest effing thing to do. Why not let the guy go through his reads in practice to learn how the eff to do it rather than "Pavloving" him into finding the first place he can dump it. It's a forward pass not a game of hot potato.

I disagree about him knowing what he was doing in McDaniels O. After a few games I remember posting that he was screwing up the OL calls, which was something he hadn't ever done and not all QB's do anyway. He was getting himself roughed up. The problem was they didn't take that away from him until late in the year. Way too often there were one or two OLmen blocking nobody based on what Bradford was communicating to them. It was WAY too much for him.

If we get the Bradford we saw last year I'm OK with that.
We're both wrong. lol.

---------------------------------------------------

Spagnuolo, the former New York Giants defensive coordinator in his second season as St. Louis Rams coach, has been emphasizing the importance of getting rid of the ball quickly to his rookie quarterback. During seven-on-seven drills, he uses a timer that beeps if Bradford doesn't throw within 2.7 seconds. To raise the stakes, they have an ongoing wager.

If Bradford doesn't fire the football within the allotted time, he pays $15 to a charity fund. If he beats the clock, Spagnuolo pays $5.


Bradford on the clock. This was Spagnuolo's idea.

"Besides the fact that all the money goes to charity, it's probably one of the worst parts of our practice," Bradford, 23, said this week at Rams Park. "It's not my favorite thing, and he knows it. I think that's why he continues to do it."

Bradford contends there are circumstances, such as a primary receiver on a play being covered, that dictate a quarterback wait a bit longer.

"I can throw a route totally on rhythm in our progression, and according to the clock it's late," he says. "Which doesn't make a lot of sense. But he's a defensive guy."

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/rams/2010-12-09-sam-bradford_N.htm
---------------------------------------------


"Pavloving him" is a brilliant way of describing it. Wish I had thought of it...
 

RaminExile

Hall of Fame
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Sep 29, 2013
Messages
3,065
Doggamn Spagnolo. Was he purposely trying to sabotage his development? I like that Sam Bradford, at only 23 years of age felt comfortable and confident enough to criticise his head coach regarding that drill though "doesn't make a lot of sense. But he's a defensive guy"....
 

RamsFan14

Starter
Joined
Dec 31, 2013
Messages
563
I'm not worried about anything other than his ability to stay healthy. And that's predicated on the line's ability to stay healthy, I suppose. When I saw Peyton Manning look like garbage in the Superbowl recently because his receivers were blanketed and pressure was ratcheted up heavily, everything I'd ever said about the QB position in general had been validated. That's (arguably) the best QB in the NFL, and he experienced a game situation that Bradford experienced REGULARLY. And without 3 Pro-Bowl linemen, Decker, Thomas and Welker at his disposal.

It's so simple, that it's aggravating when people can't seem to connect the dots.

I hope so bro... I believe in him... It's just trying to be really objective on this is really hard cause I still believe he can be a great player (baring health) even with all that he's gone through. I can't tell if it's being a homer or going with my guts.
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Messages
5,808
True ... he isn't THE problem, but he does have some things he has to work on. My only gripe is with the stat-harvesters who can sum up his career by looking at numbers. It's personal for me because I can say, unequivocally, that I have rewatched every game he's played at least 3 times each (some many times more than that). Even made a video in his defense back in 2011 showing every single sack, and you could not once count to three before he was on the ground - in any of them. I've also stored a lot of information over the years about his development that people tend to forget about, ignore, discount, or think he should just shrug off and become a superstar just because of his freakin' paycheck.

Such as:

2010 - aka The Steve Spagnuolo whistle: His rookie year, he was developed by a defensive-minded coach who made him practice getting rid of the ball before three seconds had elapsed. That's the way he came into the league. Every day during camp (and every subsequent practice), Spagnuolo would hold his stopwatch and blow his whistle at the 3 second mark, and that ball had better be gone by that time because it signified a sack. So we'll have your maiden OC draw up a bunch of bubble screens and quick slants to help you "develop." Of course that wasn't the ONLY way he was allowed to play QB, because there were deeper developing routes in 2010 after the addition of Alexander and Clayton, but he was basically trained to look for a sack after 2.9 seconds. And people complained about his short passes and not going through his progressions. Ridiculous. I defy anyone to scan the entire field in under 3 seconds. That's what pre-snap reads are for. Look for the receiver who was isolated (apparently) one-on-one by the defense and get the ball out to that guy. If coverages are disguised and that guy becomes blanketed, then dump it off. That's your mission, so get it done.

The wreckage of 2011: Forget everything you were taught last year, because we've got the big dog OC for you now in Josh McDaniels. We're going to spread it out, have you drop back 7, and for good measure, we're going to give you 2 new (rookie) receivers to play with and a rookie TE. Don't worry that they don't have a clue what they're doing yet, and don't worry that you had no time to digest and practice this brand new playbook with brand new terminology, just do it. You make 50 trillion dollars, so it's a no-brainer. Actually, it was a no-brainer for Bradford. HE knew what he was doing. He knew the playbook and brought receivers to Lindenwood to practice. But when everyone had to execute together after the season started, everything fell apart. Guys were missing sight-adjustments and getting drilled in the back, the O-line couldn't handle 7-step drops, the gameplan (and subsequent playbook) changed weekly, and Bradford was supposed to direct traffic with guys who were just about completely lost. Can't have you best receiver from the year before either, because he (and your starting RB) will be injured week 1. But go ahead -- do your thing. Don't pay any attention to all of the O-line injuries either. All QBs go through that don'tcha know...

The second rebuild - aka 2012: Who has an issue with how he performed that year? This is a rebuild done right. Two rookie receivers eased into the offense with Givens just running stop-n-go's, fly-routes, and bubble screens. Quick was held back largely because he had never even seen a playbook before, so he wasn't going to be running around there in the wrong direction all the time (which he sometimes did anyway). You can have Amendola half the season, just because. And you can have Gibson as your #1, even though he'll go on to be someone else's #4 the following year. Just do it anyway, you know ... because you're a kazillionaire. He did start the year shaky because of the beating he took the year prior, but this was essentially his rookie year with his third coordinator in as many years. So it stands to reason that he wasn't going to light it up. He played reasonably well and started showing signs of stable development, but didn't really have much in the way of seasoned talent at WR, or even a RB who could take the pressure off (yes, I'm talking about Jackson).

2013: People can draw their own conclusions from that year. I've already heard the garbage of him only being successful against crappy teams and getting all his yards in 'garbage time', so I tend not to debate it anymore. He's now in the position that he can do nothing right. He was "bad" for 3 years prior (for reasons that people WILL NOT recognize), so they've already drawn their own conclusions about him. All fallacies (IMO), so I don't care. Most people's minds are already made up and there's no changing that. I just know what I know and it's based on what I've seen. The talent is there, but the stability is just now being provided so the potential can be realized. Zero receivers, backs or tight-ends left over from his rookie year, and one (oft-injured) offensive lineman. There's some continuity and chemistry for ya.

Might be too late though. And he might not hold up much longer anyway.

You'd swear it was intentional.
 

-X-

Medium-sized Lebowski
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The Dude
I hope so bro... I believe in him... It's just trying to be really objective on this is really hard cause I still believe he can be a great player (baring health) even with all that he's gone through. I can't tell if it's being a homer or going with my guts.
Always trust your instincts.
 

RaminExile

Hall of Fame
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
3,065
I hope so bro... I believe in him... It's just trying to be really objective on this is really hard cause I still believe he can be a great player (baring health) even with all that he's gone through. I can't tell if it's being a homer or going with my guts.

I'm the same. I don't think its "homerism". Its just a recognition that the guy has a rare amount of talent. In terms of talent - he should be one of the best in the league, and since he came out of college there's really only been Andrew Luck who's in the same stratosphere as him talent-wise. So we see this - and then see how its just not happened for him because of circumstances and we (and the media and everyone in football it seems) can't work out why. We know deep down its for the reasons X has stated.

Bottom line is, if Sam Bradford fails, we've ruined a chance of having a potential hall of fame QB. Its no ones fault but the Rams.
 

scifiman

Guest
If you want to find Bradfords true value then you have to look at him objectively like he was on another team. How would you rate him then? A look at how scouts and the rest of the league views him is the key point. He has always been rated a little less than middle of the pack of QB's in the nfl. Not bad, not great. Plays well when he plays, mostly. He does not have real good touch on the throws he makes. He usually slings it out fast and on a line versus laying the ball in there. Mobility is almost non existent and pocket awareness not very good at this stage. Do you think anyone would give us a 1st round pick for him? I dont think so because of his salary. His salary would not be a problem if he was franchise qb material. Any team even the rams would probably give a 1st round pick for Rodgers or Manning or Brady or Brees but not Bradford. I dont dislike him but I have always thought he was over rated coming from a spread offense. Now if the offense were geared more towards that the take might be far different.
The fact is our team is going through qb problems like a whole lot of other teams are too. Sometimes maybe the best thing for a player is going somewhere else and starting over. I am a rams fan first. What is best for the rams is what I want and I wont allow my like for a player to overrule that.
 

CGI_Ram

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Burger man
True ... he isn't THE problem, but he does have some things he has to work on. My only gripe is with the stat-harvesters who can sum up his career by looking at numbers. It's personal for me because I can say, unequivocally, that I have rewatched every game he's played at least 3 times each (some many times more than that). Even made a video in his defense back in 2011 showing every single sack, and you could not once count to three before he was on the ground - in any of them. I've also stored a lot of information over the years about his development that people tend to forget about, ignore, discount, or think he should just shrug off and become a superstar just because of his freakin' paycheck.

Such as:

2010 - aka The Steve Spagnuolo whistle: His rookie year, he was developed by a defensive-minded coach who made him practice getting rid of the ball before three seconds had elapsed. That's the way he came into the league. Every day during camp (and every subsequent practice), Spagnuolo would hold his stopwatch and blow his whistle at the 3 second mark, and that ball had better be gone by that time because it signified a sack. So we'll have your maiden OC draw up a bunch of bubble screens and quick slants to help you "develop." Of course that wasn't the ONLY way he was allowed to play QB, because there were deeper developing routes in 2010 after the addition of Alexander and Clayton, but he was basically trained to look for a sack after 2.9 seconds. And people complained about his short passes and not going through his progressions. Ridiculous. I defy anyone to scan the entire field in under 3 seconds. That's what pre-snap reads are for. Look for the receiver who was isolated (apparently) one-on-one by the defense and get the ball out to that guy. If coverages are disguised and that guy becomes blanketed, then dump it off. That's your mission, so get it done.

The wreckage of 2011: Forget everything you were taught last year, because we've got the big dog OC for you now in Josh McDaniels. We're going to spread it out, have you drop back 7, and for good measure, we're going to give you 2 new (rookie) receivers to play with and a rookie TE. Don't worry that they don't have a clue what they're doing yet, and don't worry that you had no time to digest and practice this brand new playbook with brand new terminology, just do it. You make 50 trillion dollars, so it's a no-brainer. Actually, it was a no-brainer for Bradford. HE knew what he was doing. He knew the playbook and brought receivers to Lindenwood to practice. But when everyone had to execute together after the season started, everything fell apart. Guys were missing sight-adjustments and getting drilled in the back, the O-line couldn't handle 7-step drops, the gameplan (and subsequent playbook) changed weekly, and Bradford was supposed to direct traffic with guys who were just about completely lost. Can't have you best receiver from the year before either, because he (and your starting RB) will be injured week 1. But go ahead -- do your thing. Don't pay any attention to all of the O-line injuries either. All QBs go through that don'tcha know...

The second rebuild - aka 2012: Who has an issue with how he performed that year? This is a rebuild done right. Two rookie receivers eased into the offense with Givens just running stop-n-go's, fly-routes, and bubble screens. Quick was held back largely because he had never even seen a playbook before, so he wasn't going to be running around there in the wrong direction all the time (which he sometimes did anyway). You can have Amendola half the season, just because. And you can have Gibson as your #1, even though he'll go on to be someone else's #4 the following year. Just do it anyway, you know ... because you're a kazillionaire. He did start the year shaky because of the beating he took the year prior, but this was essentially his rookie year with his third coordinator in as many years. So it stands to reason that he wasn't going to light it up. He played reasonably well and started showing signs of stable development, but didn't really have much in the way of seasoned talent at WR, or even a RB who could take the pressure off (yes, I'm talking about Jackson).

2013: People can draw their own conclusions from that year. I've already heard the garbage of him only being successful against crappy teams and getting all his yards in 'garbage time', so I tend not to debate it anymore. He's now in the position that he can do nothing right. He was "bad" for 3 years prior (for reasons that people WILL NOT recognize), so they've already drawn their own conclusions about him. All fallacies (IMO), so I don't care. Most people's minds are already made up and there's no changing that. I just know what I know and it's based on what I've seen. The talent is there, but the stability is just now being provided so the potential can be realized. Zero receivers, backs or tight-ends left over from his rookie year, and one (oft-injured) offensive lineman. There's some continuity and chemistry for ya.

Might be too late though. And he might not hold up much longer anyway.

Well done! Can it be any clearer why this coaching staff is standing by Sam?

Unlike a lot of "fans", pointing the finger at one guy isn't how you build a team.
 

Mojo Ram

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22,949
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mojo
If you want to find Bradfords true value then you have to look at him objectively like he was on another team. How would you rate him then? A look at how scouts and the rest of the league views him is the key point. He has always been rated a little less than middle of the pack of QB's in the nfl. Not bad, not great. Plays well when he plays, mostly. He does not have real good touch on the throws he makes. He usually slings it out fast and on a line versus laying the ball in there. Mobility is almost non existent and pocket awareness not very good at this stage. Do you think anyone would give us a 1st round pick for him? I dont think so because of his salary. His salary would not be a problem if he was franchise qb material. Any team even the rams would probably give a 1st round pick for Rodgers or Manning or Brady or Brees but not Bradford. I dont dislike him but I have always thought he was over rated coming from a spread offense. Now if the offense were geared more towards that the take might be far different.
The fact is our team is going through qb problems like a whole lot of other teams are too. Sometimes maybe the best thing for a player is going somewhere else and starting over. I am a rams fan first. What is best for the rams is what I want and I wont allow my like for a player to overrule that.
Question:
How many teams right now...do you think would be willing to take Bradford into their starting lineup at QB today for little compensation(just for the sake of argument)?
Less than half of the teams?

I agree with your point that Bradford's true value and opinion of should be held by the other 31 GM's in the league. My opinion is that when you eliminate the people who don't matter like us, other fans and the media...is that Bradford is considered among the top 15 starting QB's in the league.
Just my opinion of course.
 

LesBaker

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Aug 23, 2012
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17,460
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Les
We're both wrong. lol.

---------------------------------------------------

Spagnuolo, the former New York Giants defensive coordinator in his second season as St. Louis Rams coach, has been emphasizing the importance of getting rid of the ball quickly to his rookie quarterback. During seven-on-seven drills, he uses a timer that beeps if Bradford doesn't throw within 2.7 seconds. To raise the stakes, they have an ongoing wager.

If Bradford doesn't fire the football within the allotted time, he pays $15 to a charity fund. If he beats the clock, Spagnuolo pays $5.


Bradford on the clock. This was Spagnuolo's idea.

"Besides the fact that all the money goes to charity, it's probably one of the worst parts of our practice," Bradford, 23, said this week at Rams Park. "It's not my favorite thing, and he knows it. I think that's why he continues to do it."

Bradford contends there are circumstances, such as a primary receiver on a play being covered, that dictate a quarterback wait a bit longer.

"I can throw a route totally on rhythm in our progression, and according to the clock it's late," he says. "Which doesn't make a lot of sense. But he's a defensive guy."

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/rams/2010-12-09-sam-bradford_N.htm
---------------------------------------------


"Pavloving him" is a brilliant way of describing it. Wish I had thought of it...

Pavlov's dogs came to mind when I first read that Spagnuolo was doing that a few years back.. And in retrospect what Bradford said was something that we should have caught onto. He was clearly uncomfortable with it but everything just got glossed over.

This is where a professional QB coach would have been beneficial rather than a knucklehead like Spagnuolo.
 

V3

Hall of Fame
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Apr 23, 2013
Messages
3,848
I'm not worried about anything other than his ability to stay healthy. And that's predicated on the line's ability to stay healthy, I suppose. When I saw Peyton Manning look like garbage in the Superbowl recently because his receivers were blanketed and pressure was ratcheted up heavily, everything I'd ever said about the QB position in general had been validated. That's (arguably) the best QB in the NFL, and he experienced a game situation that Bradford experienced REGULARLY. And without 3 Pro-Bowl linemen, Decker, Thomas and Welker at his disposal.

It's so simple, that it's aggravating when people can't seem to connect the dots.

I'm not sure I can even say it's predicated on his line. When he got injured last year, he was running out of bounds. I can't put that on his O-line. He just....broke. It was very strange. A bad O-line definitely wouldn't help things, though. If Bradford stays healthy next year, I'll still wonder if he's going to be like Microsoft with their OS releases(have a good one, then bad one, then good, then bad...).
 

RamsFan14

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Dec 31, 2013
Messages
563
I'm not sure I can even say it's predicated on his line. When he got injured last year, he was running out of bounds. I can't put that on his O-line. He just....broke. It was very strange. A bad O-line definitely wouldn't help things, though. If Bradford stays healthy next year, I'll still wonder if he's going to be like Microsoft with their OS releases(have a good one, then bad one, then good, then bad...).

Well if we win the Super Bowl next year, then I won't have much of a problem with that! ;)
 

BonifayRam

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Vernon
ESPN's Chris Mortensen said on SportsCenter that Sam Bradford "would likely go on the trade market" if the Rams drafted a quarterback in the first round.

The Rams have shown interest in quarterbacks -- they're working out Johnny Manziel on Friday, for instance -- although they aren't commonly sent QBs in mock drafts. We'd consider them a sleeper team to draft a quarterback at No. 13 overall, but ultimately see St. Louis as much more likely to select one on day two. Bradford has a whopping $14.015 million base salary, an obvious obstacle if the Rams tried to trade him. He is also coming off a torn ACL

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5161/sam-bradford
 

DR RAM

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Rambeau
We're both wrong. lol.

---------------------------------------------------

Spagnuolo, the former New York Giants defensive coordinator in his second season as St. Louis Rams coach, has been emphasizing the importance of getting rid of the ball quickly to his rookie quarterback. During seven-on-seven drills, he uses a timer that beeps if Bradford doesn't throw within 2.7 seconds. To raise the stakes, they have an ongoing wager.

If Bradford doesn't fire the football within the allotted time, he pays $15 to a charity fund. If he beats the clock, Spagnuolo pays $5.


Bradford on the clock. This was Spagnuolo's idea.

"Besides the fact that all the money goes to charity, it's probably one of the worst parts of our practice," Bradford, 23, said this week at Rams Park. "It's not my favorite thing, and he knows it. I think that's why he continues to do it."

Bradford contends there are circumstances, such as a primary receiver on a play being covered, that dictate a quarterback wait a bit longer.

"I can throw a route totally on rhythm in our progression, and according to the clock it's late," he says. "Which doesn't make a lot of sense. But he's a defensive guy."

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/rams/2010-12-09-sam-bradford_N.htm
---------------------------------------------


"Pavloving him" is a brilliant way of describing it. Wish I had thought of it...
I mentioned this the other day, because I will never forget it. It was completely asinine, especially now, looking back. If you remember, Spags took a lot of time away from Bradford studying defenses. At the time that was going on, I thought it sounded like a good idea, but who knows if it actually hurt Bradford.

Great earlier post, by you and a few others, you have argued this so many times, that you can probably type that summary in your sleep now. As you know, I used to argue these things as well, but the people that don't get it, just never will, and I no longer waste my precious energy.

This is my summary: I watch the guy play, I see what he does in an exact situation, and he passes the eyeball test. I can't even give you the number of games that I've watched frame by frame. He impresses me. I just wish he wouldn't have gotten injured, and I wish we had a better OL, and WR's--talent, and experience wise.

Peace out.