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With the SD/OAK announcement there is no drivers seat.

Blue4, with all due respect, I can't take this seriously. The SD/OAK announcement is not on the same level as Kroenke's plan in Inglewood. They make an announcement that they are going to seek opportunities in another market while still trying to get stadium issues resolved within their own existing market. They have no investment in the Carson plan and the announcement states nothing as to "How" it will be financed. It is easy to say it will be "Privately financed" yet nothing supporting that in the statement. They did mention PSL's. However, do you know anyone who is willing to fork out $10K for the right to purchase season tickets 3 or 4 years from now? And, Spanos has complained that he may lose 25% of his fan base if the Rams move to LA, yet he is willing to risk his other 75% of base to partner with their most hated rival in a city 120 miles away?

Until we see them partner up with investors or show how it will be financed, this plan is not on the same level as Kroenke's Inglewood project.
 

bluecoconuts

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I just don't see it as anywhere near the same, or even traumatic. The rival city is 121 miles away (I know you see that as much more of a problem than I do), the owners have to share the stadium not the fans, and a chunk of your fan base is already there. What else can you do to scorn a fan base? Express no interest in staying and attempt to move 1800 miles away. Hold fan love fests on national TV with another city 1800 miles away. I have no sympathy whatsoever for SD fans if they can't see this. They're going to get off lucky. If the Rams and Bears each moved halfway between the cities, and built a joint stadium I would be ecstatic. If Chicago was within 150 miles of STL and they built a joint stadium in Chicago, I'd be happy. If I had to team up with the biggest rival I've ever had to keep my team within driving distance, I would do it. Because the alternative is being left with jack crap.

And this goes double for SD because they actually aren't making much of an effort to keep them.

That distance is a big deal in Southern California, its not rural, its urban, and you're talking about two major metropolitan areas. Its "only" 20 miles from my house to my school, but because it's city driving, and 405 driving (one of the worst freeways in the country), if I have a class at noon, I need to leave at 10:30-10:45. If I have a class at 9:30, I have to leave at 6:45. That's 20 miles. Fans aren't just gonna head out for a few hours, its an all day thing, people will need to get hotels the night before, skip work the next day, etc.
 

bluecoconuts

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It seems odd that no one knew that supposedly the Raiders and Chargers previously bought the property. It also seems odd that they would have bought the property and still say, but if you all in SD and Oak are so kind as to build us a stadium, we will forgo this massive undertaking. IMO - it is either a last ditch effort to use the LA market as leverage before that leverage goes away, or a move that gets them both the stadium and market they have looked at for some time OR...... they have been in cahoots with the NFL and Stan all along to get all three of them what they are after. What y'all think? Maybe Stan has wanted to stay in St Louis the whole time and the billionaire club put this together to troll all the cities?

Someone said he doesn't actually own it, but owns the rights to purchase it, not sure how true that is though. Also heard there's questions with financing, even if they got their most optimistic numbers, they're still about 200M short, plus relocation fees. But those can probably be worked out.
 

blue4

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That distance is a big deal in Southern California, its not rural, its urban, and you're talking about two major metropolitan areas. Its "only" 20 miles from my house to my school, but because it's city driving, and 405 driving (one of the worst freeways in the country), if I have a class at noon, I need to leave at 10:30-10:45. If I have a class at 9:30, I have to leave at 6:45. That's 20 miles. Fans aren't just gonna head out for a few hours, its an all day thing, people will need to get hotels the night before, skip work the next day, etc.

Believe me, I get what you are saying. I guess they can do without then, cause the effort they are putting forth to keep football isn't very good. I'm willing to bet 5 years after losing the Chargers to somewhere out of the region those fan reactions would change.
 

bluecoconuts

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Believe me, I get what you are saying. I guess they can do without then, cause the effort they are putting forth to keep football isn't very good. I'm willing to bet 5 years after losing the Chargers to somewhere out of the region those fan reactions would change.

San Diego has made offers, the Chargers denied them. The biggest difference between them and St Louis is that San Diego didn't press forward without approval from the Chargers.
 

blue4

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Blue4, with all due respect, I can't take this seriously. The SD/OAK announcement is not on the same level as Kroenke's plan in Inglewood. They make an announcement that they are going to seek opportunities in another market while still trying to get stadium issues resolved within their own existing market. They have no investment in the Carson plan and the announcement states nothing as to "How" it will be financed. It is easy to say it will be "Privately financed" yet nothing supporting that in the statement. They did mention PSL's. However, do you know anyone who is willing to fork out $10K for the right to purchase season tickets 3 or 4 years from now? And, Spanos has complained that he may lose 25% of his fan base if the Rams move to LA, yet he is willing to risk his other 75% of base to partner with their most hated rival in a city 120 miles away?

Until we see them partner up with investors or show how it will be financed, this plan is not on the same level as Kroenke's Inglewood project.

Fair enough. I can't take seriously the way Stan has been made into a super genius able to brush aside other super rich and win long court cases before they even start. Before St Louis went into high gear and the SD Oakland announcement you could say he was driving the bus. Now he's just the first passenger in line.
 

blue4

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San Diego has made offers, the Chargers denied them. The biggest difference between them and St Louis is that San Diego didn't press forward without approval from the Chargers.

Well that and we're a little shy of 14 years.
 

drasconis

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San Diego has made offers, the Chargers denied them. The biggest difference between them and St Louis is that San Diego didn't press forward without approval from the Chargers.

The biggest difference is that SD hasn't offered any serious public financing.....St. Louis has.
 

LosAngelesRams

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That distance is a big deal in Southern California, its not rural, its urban, and you're talking about two major metropolitan areas. Its "only" 20 miles from my house to my school, but because it's city driving, and 405 driving (one of the worst freeways in the country), if I have a class at noon, I need to leave at 10:30-10:45. If I have a class at 9:30, I have to leave at 6:45. That's 20 miles. Fans aren't just gonna head out for a few hours, its an all day thing, people will need to get hotels the night before, skip work the next day, etc.

Takes me a hour and 30 mins to drive 25 miles to work, one way, 3 or more hours a day driving to and from work alone. Its like im driving to vegas everyday one way. I used to have to drive on the 405 when I worked in HB, shit was horrible. I mainly use the 10 and the 605 now.
thats some real shit you're sayin there.
 

bluecoconuts

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Well that and we're a little shy of 14 years.

The biggest difference is that SD hasn't offered any serious public financing.....St. Louis has.

Part of the Chargers demands are that it's a 1 Billion+ dollar stadium, San Diego pays for at minimum 60% of it, and it is on a specific location (San Diego offered to tear down the old stadium and build there). If Kroenke made those demands (which it's questionable if St Louis would be able to meet them, much like San Diego) the backlash here would be huge.


I'm not saying their deal is a bad one in general, as someone who wants the Rams to stay, I hope it gets done and the Rams stay put. However I understand there are questions about the finances, and I don't think the site is as good (it's being built on a trash dump apparently? I don't know the area, other that Carson is kind of shitty, and Compton adjacent) as the other one, and I don't think it's the best move for the Chargers (for the Raiders it's a much better move)... At this point I still think Kroenke is in the "lead", and his is the safer option right now, but that can change. My main hope is that they all get together, and Stan agrees to stay put and starts working on St Louis. I'm not sure that happens. Before I put it at about 65-75% chance the Rams left, I'm at about 55% now.


Takes me a hour and 30 mins to drive 25 miles to work, one way, 3 or more hours a day driving to and from work alone. Its like im driving to vegas everyday one way. I used to have to drive on the 405 when I worked in HB, crap was horrible. I mainly use the 10 and the 605 now.
thats some real crap you're sayin there.

I take surface streets as much as I can, because it's faster. Once it took me 45 minutes to get between Victory and Burbank on the 405, it was hell. I go through all the rich neighborhoods and swear at them for having such nice houses, while they judge me for driving a Honda.
 

RamBill

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Bernie: Latest chapter in LA stadium saga could benefit St. Louis’ efforts to keep Rams
• By Bernie Miklasz

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/colu...cle_fbe8a204-51fd-571d-b579-90be2e6175b5.html

The latest turn in the NFL’s game of California scheming is a real stunner: traditional rivals San Diego Chargers and Oakland Raiders are becoming partners on a plan to build a privately financed $1.7 billion stadium in Carson, a suburb located 13 miles south of Los Angeles.

This is potentially good news for St. Louis.

And a potentially bad development for Rams owner Stan Kroenke.

I say “potentially” because it would be a mistake to jump to conclusions. The stadium game in LA has reached a fever-pitch level. Wealthy, greedy, increasingly desperate men are willing to shove their loyal fan bases aside to further enrich themselves by winning the battle of Los Angeles.

This is pure madness, and no outcome should be ruled out.

But yes, this could work in STL’s favor.

After standing on the side and barking about their inadequate, antiquated, existing stadiums, Chargers owner Dean Spanos and Raiders owner Mark Davis finally took action and jumped into the fray.

The Chargers and Raiders aren’t willing to concede the LA territory without a fight.

In a three-franchise race for one or two Los Angeles slots, Kroenke made the first move and staked an early advantage by announcing plans last month to build an 80,000-seat stadium on the old Hollywood Park grounds in Inglewood, Calif.

All of the momentum seemed to be in his favor. Kroenke and his investment partners left little to chance, going as far as pushing more than $100,000 in contributions across the desk of Inglewood politicians in recent years to curry favor and expedite the stadium process there.

Rather than idly watch Kroenke roll in the tanks, pull the Rams out of the Midwest, invade SoCal and take control of a lucrative market, the California-based Chargers and Raiders have mounted a vigorous defense of their home-state territory. They’re attempting to execute a double-team block on Kroenke.

The NFL won’t have three teams in Los Angeles, so one of the three teams will lose out. And if the Carson project truly is on solid ground, the loser could be Kroenke.

So how does the Chargers-Raiders advance on Carson help St. Louis keep the Rams?

Let us review:

• If the NFL eventually must choose between Inglewood and Carson, then Carson has the edge. Why? When in doubt, go with the best cash flow. Go with the surest thing financially. A two-team stadium would generate more cash and stand on firmer financial ground than a one-team stadium.

• Relocation fees: The NFL can extract a relocation fee from one team … or collect relocation payments from two teams. Do the math.

• If the Chargers and Raiders pull this off and land in Carson, then the NFL will have rectified the league’s two worst stadium situations. The Chargers and Raiders have been stuck in old multipurpose-model era venues for too long. With the teams having little chance to get new, publicly financed stadiums in San Diego and Oakland, the Carson stadium solves a longstanding NFL problem.

• If the NFL has to make a choice here, then why would they abandon a market (St. Louis) that’s offering to build a new stadium for the second time in 25 years? Why allow Kroenke to jump ahead of Spanos and Davis, who have been waiting much longer than Kroenke for stadium relief? Why reward the one owner, Kroenke, with the right to move if he rejects a good-faith effort to build him a new stadium in St. Louis?

• Instead of granting the Los Angeles territory to a man (Kroenke) who played a major role in the abandonment of Southern California by helping Georgia Frontiere cash in with the Rams in St. Louis, the NFL has an opportunity to take care of two California-based franchises that have more pressing needs for a new stadium. As one NFL executive told me several months ago: the league prefers that the California problem be solved in California — and not by stripping a franchise from another region. Well, here’s the league’s chance to implement a California Solution.

• Three markets are in danger of losing their NFL franchise. But only one of the three markets, St. Louis, is trying to build a new stadium. So let me get this straight: the NFL would prefer to have Kroenke walk away from a new stadium in St. Louis and keep Spanos and Davis locked into deteriorating stadiums that should have been replaced many years ago? That’s asinine.

Now that we’ve covered all of that, let’s raise the caution flag.

There are ways for Kroenke to prevail.

The Carson deal could collapse. As a general principle, LA stadium plans should be viewed with skepticism. There hasn’t been a new football stadium built in Southern California since the 1920s. In Los Angeles stadium designs get shredded as frequently as rejected film scripts.

It’s an extreme long shot, but Oakland and/or San Diego could pull off a major upset and each come up with the public funding for a new stadium.

Kroenke could be pragmatic and devious and approach Spanos or Davis about becoming his partner in Inglewood. Split one off from the other, and then get the two-team stadium clout on your side.

In his lust for Los Angeles, Kroenke could go maniac-level rogue by attempting to haul the Rams to LA as soon as possible. Get there first, force the league into an extended court battle, and blow up the Chargers-Raiders Carson strategy. No one knows if the league would have the guts to block Kroenke from moving.

So maybe he’ll ignore the relocation rules and take his chances in court.

This is a long, volatile game. We can expect more power moves and jockeying before it’s all over.

On behalf of St. Louis Rams fans, I’d like to welcome Raiders and Chargers fans to the high-anxiety club.

What an embarrassing, hideous mess this is for the NFL: three markets about to enter possible lame-duck seasons, with fans in all three places fretting over their teams revving up for a cut-and-run move to Los Angeles after the 2015 campaign.

Deflated footballs apparently are more important to the NFL than deflated fan bases.
 

RamFan503

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I'd just suggest that anyone who thinks the 120 miles from LA to SD is a two hour drive has never driven in that area. Not maybe a huge point in the discussion but depending on where you actually start, you are likely looking at about twice that. Unfortunately, driving from just about anywhere to Inglewood is not going to be a trip to the store either.

I think we'll get some more info sooner rather than later. Such a damn soap opera.

The funny thing is that I think Stan is generally going to do what he sets out to do and Spanos and Davis are first class bitches. But Stan hasn't actually SAID what he intends to do and I think Spanos and Davis come off as bed wetters looking to do a sleep over.

Ah what a strange trip it's been.
 

Dodgersrf

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I'd just suggest that anyone who thinks the 120 miles from LA to SD is a two hour drive has never driven in that area. Not maybe a huge point in the discussion but depending on where you actually start, you are likely looking at about twice that. Unfortunately, driving from just about anywhere to Inglewood is not going to be a trip to the store either.

I think we'll get some more info sooner rather than later. Such a damn soap opera.

The funny thing is that I think Stan is generally going to do what he sets out to do and Spanos and Davis are first class bitches. But Stan hasn't actually SAID what he intends to do and I think Spanos and Davis come off as bed wetters looking to do a sleep over.

Ah what a strange trip it's been.
So much for a boring offseason.
 

RamFan503

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Are you really sure that the lease was to go on eternally? Then why does every newspaper refer to it as expired? The Rams had the option to opt out, they did, therefore negating the old lease. From my perspective, how does Stan get to opt out of a lease but still hold the other side to the lease? As far as I know the only thing still binding the CVC is that they can't refuse the Rams on a year to year basis. But a stadium lease expiring is hardly rare, and isn't cause to move a team if your negotiations were designed to fail. At least that's how I see the process. I'm sure a fan from LA probably sees it differently.

Not eternally. 10 more years. I can't account for newspapers saying the lease has expired. First of all, I haven't seen any of them actually refer to it as such. Second, the next time I just go by what a some reporter says, is the next time I'm fooled again. Third, I am going to go by the actual decision rather than what a second hand account of what a newspaper supposedly reported.

The lease is what it is and it was a major factor in luring the team to St Louis. And though a lease expiring is not a rare thing in the slightest, that is not what is happening. The lease has 10 years remaining on the team's option. Why in the heck would the team pay hundreds of millions of dollars it is under no obligation to pay? You can't exactly say that you are not going to live up to your end of a lease and in doing so, you now have the power to force someone to help you build a stadium they don't want to be in.

I would agree that it was an asinine lease for the CVC to offer. But how exactly does that mean they are not bound by it? And how does them not wanting to be bound by it suddenly put the onus on the Rams?

The fact is that the Rams presented a proposal that the arbitrators agreed was the more realistic approach for fulfilling the requirement agreed to by the CVC and the Rams. The CVC decided not to hold up to their end of the deal - knowing full well that it meant Stan could exercise his option. Nothing in any of this says that Stan then has to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to help build a stadium he won't own, will receive nothing from other events in the stadium, won't control parking revenues, etc... Seriously. You can say that Stan is a fat cat or that he enjoys $200 million a year in shared revenues, etc... but after paying salaries and expenses and all, do you really think that is the kind of ROI that he is after?

People keep wanting to bring up the idea that Stan unlike other owners has a stadium proposal on the table in his current market. How many other owners have a city locked in to a lease like the Rams have? Do we really believe that a new stadium will profit Stan that much more that it would be worth it for him to pay ??? in a new lease AND fork over $250 million up front plus another $200 million in leans (G4 loan) should he or his heirs eventually decide to sell the team? Who wouldn't sign up for that?

It will continue to be interesting as I don't think any of us know what the Governor is expecting in the form of a new lease or what the final proposal really will be. The Raiduhs/Chargers thing will need to be vetted out. Inglewood still needs to stamp the OK. And we still really have no idea on either how powerful the NFL really is in stopping a move or what proposals they are giving more weight to.

If you think I am only seeing it this way because I used to live in LA, I really can't do anything about that. I am trying to look at things as they happen and how I see things working in as similar situations as I can. But thinking because the CVC offered and signed a shitty lease they should be able to ignore it and leave the Rams holding the bag is just not the way things work nor should it be. The Rams have an agreement that has value. Don't expect them to just walk away from it and fork over a shit load of money. I just don't see that happening.
 

ChrisW

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Blue4, with all due respect, I can't take this seriously. The SD/OAK announcement is not on the same level as Kroenke's plan in Inglewood. They make an announcement that they are going to seek opportunities in another market while still trying to get stadium issues resolved within their own existing market. They have no investment in the Carson plan and the announcement states nothing as to "How" it will be financed. It is easy to say it will be "Privately financed" yet nothing supporting that in the statement. They did mention PSL's. However, do you know anyone who is willing to fork out $10K for the right to purchase season tickets 3 or 4 years from now? And, Spanos has complained that he may lose 25% of his fan base if the Rams move to LA, yet he is willing to risk his other 75% of base to partner with their most hated rival in a city 120 miles away?

Until we see them partner up with investors or show how it will be financed, this plan is not on the same level as Kroenke's Inglewood project.

It doesn't matter who's proposal is further ahead. The fact is there is 3 teams vying for the LA market now. Stan has to wait for a vote to see who wins the race. He can build the stadium all he wants, but if the owners vote no then he's going to incur some major expenses if he moves anyway. As far as financing at Carson see below. I realize that Levi's has it's own problems as far as the large loans that were taken out by the stadium authority for construction expenses. Something around 650 million. But the only thing that really matters is if it gets green lighted or not.

"Goldman Sachs executive Tim Romer was on hand to guarantee to the roughly 92,000 citizens of Carson, located south of Los Angeles near the intersection of the 405 and 110 freeways, that no taxpayer money or city general funds would be used in the stadium construction.

Romer was also involved in the financing of the San Francisco 49ers' Levi's Stadium in Santa Clara.

"The financing here is viable and doable," Romer said. "The financing will follow the model of Levi's (Stadium). The financing, which we will provide, will all come from revenues generated by the stadium."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...-diego-chargers-and-oakland-raiders/23754099/
 

blue4

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Not eternally. 10 more years. I can't account for newspapers saying the lease has expired. First of all, I haven't seen any of them actually refer to it as such. Second, the next time I just go by what a some reporter says, is the next time I'm fooled again. Third, I am going to go by the actual decision rather than what a second hand account of what a newspaper supposedly reported.

The lease is what it is and it was a major factor in luring the team to St Louis. And though a lease expiring is not a rare thing in the slightest, that is not what is happening. The lease has 10 years remaining on the team's option. Why in the heck would the team pay hundreds of millions of dollars it is under no obligation to pay? You can't exactly say that you are not going to live up to your end of a lease and in doing so, you now have the power to force someone to help you build a stadium they don't want to be in.

I would agree that it was an asinine lease for the CVC to offer. But how exactly does that mean they are not bound by it? And how does them not wanting to be bound by it suddenly put the onus on the Rams?

The fact is that the Rams presented a proposal that the arbitrators agreed was the more realistic approach for fulfilling the requirement agreed to by the CVC and the Rams. The CVC decided not to hold up to their end of the deal - knowing full well that it meant Stan could exercise his option. Nothing in any of this says that Stan then has to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to help build a stadium he won't own, will receive nothing from other events in the stadium, won't control parking revenues, etc... Seriously. You can say that Stan is a fat cat or that he enjoys $200 million a year in shared revenues, etc... but after paying salaries and expenses and all, do you really think that is the kind of ROI that he is after?

People keep wanting to bring up the idea that Stan unlike other owners has a stadium proposal on the table in his current market. How many other owners have a city locked in to a lease like the Rams have? Do we really believe that a new stadium will profit Stan that much more that it would be worth it for him to pay ??? in a new lease AND fork over $250 million up front plus another $200 million in leans (G4 loan) should he or his heirs eventually decide to sell the team? Who wouldn't sign up for that?

It will continue to be interesting as I don't think any of us know what the Governor is expecting in the form of a new lease or what the final proposal really will be. The Raiduhs/Chargers thing will need to be vetted out. Inglewood still needs to stamp the OK. And we still really have no idea on either how powerful the NFL really is in stopping a move or what proposals they are giving more weight to.

If you think I am only seeing it this way because I used to live in LA, I really can't do anything about that. I am trying to look at things as they happen and how I see things working in as similar situations as I can. But thinking because the CVC offered and signed a crappy lease they should be able to ignore it and leave the Rams holding the bag is just not the way things work nor should it be. The Rams have an agreement that has value. Don't expect them to just walk away from it and fork over a crap load of money. I just don't see that happening.


The Rams are free to go year to year. They're free to renegotiate a new lease. What they are not free to do is move the team to a new city without exhausting all options at a deal. This would not have been news to him when he purchased the rest of the team. The CVC not electing to spend more than the dome is worth to go the next 10 years is a shock to no one. It's not like they told the Rams to get out. They didn't meet the top 25% clause which gives the Rams the right to opt out. The right to opt out, not an immediate termination. What bag are the Rams holding? They can continue with the same bargain basement rates as before. The CVC can't refuse them. The dome isn't falling apart. As there have been countless "experts" with differing opinions and 95 pages of great points made on both sides here I don't think it's nearly as cut and dry as is being made out to be in your post. These are not normal businesses with normal consumers following normal rules. Maybe had Stan mentioned upon purchasing the remainder of the team that his goal was to move the team we could have had most of a new home built already. You can't know to start building something as large as a stadium without some input. Just wagging a finger at the CVC is a simplistic to me. If Stan didn't care to renegotiate the lease, or doesn't want to talk about a new stadium in St Louis then why buy the team? Not renegotiating the lease I can see sure but not even talking to the city when they call you? The fact is he purchased the team knowing full well what the bylaws were.

And I have no idea where you live or have lived so I have no judgements on why you feel the way you do. I was simply referring to the natural tendency of people views on an issue to be influenced by what they want.
 

Big Unit

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I wonder how everyone would feel if we took the identities of the three teams out of the equation?

To some extent, that's what Governor Nixon and Dave Peacock have done; indicating that St. Louis is an "NFL City", and linking the proposed new stadium to that assertion, rather than specifically to the Rams.

I think that's wise. Not sure how I feel about having the Rams in St. Louis - clearly my first choice - if it meant that the Rams would have an unwilling and disinterested owner, in Stan Kroenke. For one thing, I'd be tremendously disappointed in Mr. Kroenke; he's a Missourian, after all. How self-centered can you get?

In my mind, St. Louis is the quintessential Midwestern city. Fans want effort, even more than success. And even if media opportunities aren't what they would be in a larger media center, athletes are local royalty; in a way that doesn't translate to a larger city. But at the same time, they want that adulation to be reciprocated; they want the team to value the city, just like the city values the team. I think having a team in St. Louis with an owner who WANTS to be here, is as important - maybe more so - than the identity of the team itself.

By the same token, LA is currently a city with no NFL team; not one, or two, or three - NONE. How would LA Rams fans feel if there weren't a stadium issue in St. Louis; if Mr. Kroenke didn't have his Inglewood plans; but if the Raiders and Chargers made their joint statement, with likely plans that the Rams would stay in St. Louis, but LA would suddenly have two NFL teams?

Clearly, LA doesn't need an NFL franchise to have validation as a major city; not in the way St. Louis does. Any chance public financing would be committed to a stadium in LA, in the way it has been for the past 20 years in St. Louis? Of course not. Similarly, neither San Diego nor Oakland has made such a public commitment. Surely that should count for something.

In my mind, LA should have two teams; because they're LA. And St. Louis should have a team; preferably with an owner who WANTS to be in St. Louis. I'd prefer the St. Louis team be the Rams; but that's selfish, and secondary. Which teams go where is less important than that LA have two, and St. Louis have one.
 
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I wonder how everyone would feel if we took the identities of the three teams out of the equation?

To some extent, that's what Governor Nixon and Dave Peacock have done; indicating that St. Louis is an "NFL City", and linking the proposed new stadium to that assertion, rather than specifically to the Rams.

I think that's wise. Not sure how I feel about having the Rams in St. Louis - clearly my first choice - if it meant that the Rams would have an unwilling and disinterested owner, in Stan Kroenke. For one thing, I'd be tremendously disappointed in Mr. Kroenke; he's a Missourian, after all. How self-centered can you get?

In my mind, St. Louis is the quintessential Midwestern city. Fans want effort, even more than success. And even if media opportunities aren't what they would be in a larger media center, athletes are local royalty; in a way that doesn't translate to a larger city. But at the same time, they want that adulation to be reciprocated; they want the team to value the city, just like the city values the team. I think having a team in St. Louis with an owner who WANTS to be here, is as important - maybe more so - than the identity of the team itself.

By the same token, LA is currently a city with no NFL team; not one, or two, or three - NONE. How would LA Rams fans feel if there weren't a stadium issue in St. Louis; if Mr. Kroenke didn't have his Inglewood plans; but if the Raiders and Chargers made their joint statement, with likely plans that the Rams would stay in St. Louis, but LA would suddenly have two NFL teams?

Clearly, LA doesn't need an NFL franchise to have validation as a major city; not in the way St. Louis does. Any chance public financing would be committed to a stadium in LA, in the way it has been for the past 20 years in St. Louis? Of course not. Similarly, neither San Diego nor Oakland has made such a public commitment. Surely that should count for something.

In my mind, LA should have two teams; because they're LA. And St. Louis should have a team; preferably with an owner who WANTS to be in St. Louis. I'd prefer the St. Louis team be the Rams; but that's selfish, and secondary. Which teams go where is less important than that LA have two, and St. Louis have one.

My personal wish list is

1. Football in St Louis
2. Having nothing to do with Kronke.

1 takes priority over 2, if it's a choice between no team and a Kroenke owned team I'll take the Kroenke owned team. But if it was a choice between a Kroenke owned Rams team and a team not owned by Kroenke which isn't the Rams I'll take the other team.
 

Big Unit

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My personal wish list is

1. Football in St Louis
2. Having nothing to do with Kronke.

1 takes priority over 2, if it's a choice between no team and a Kroenke owned team I'll take the Kroenke owned team. But if it was a choice between a Kroenke owned Rams team and a team not owned by Kroenke which isn't the Rams I'll take the other team.
I might give Kroenke-owned Rams a couple years; see if he once again buys in to St. Louis. But if he doesn't - I agree. St. Louis deserves a team; but in a perfect world, deserves a team that wants to be here.
 
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