Mayo Clinic in Minnesota cleared Sasser to play

[RamzFanz]

Sasser and his agent shopped around for a doctor who would clear him.

That's an assumption and unfair to Sasser and the Mayo Clinic. Experts put their reputation on the line in these things. To say they would do that is unsupported in any way.

 

[jrry32]

Well, there are a lot of strong opinions here I see.

I'm not assuming he saw experts until he went to Mayo. If he did, then they should speak to Mayo and see why the disagreement. One of them is wrong.

The Mayo Clinic is where the experts go for advice and, according to their cardiac page, they diagnose in teams, not individuals. Were talking about the teams that do heart transplants and have pioneered much of that field, not sports medicine. I will assume they would not put their stamp on something like this lightly.

At the very least, it would create a doubt in my mind that the team got it right and I would reexamine the decision.

That's not necessarily true. It doesn't mean one is wrong. The Mayo doctors said that the risk is low. They're not saying he has nothing wrong with him.

If I had two conflicting health reports. I'd get a third opinion. Then I'd ask the kid what he really wants to do. Tell him to take a week and go talk to his family and decide.

Yea but issue is that it's not just two opinions. There have been quite a few opinions on the matter and it seems the Rams just don't feel comfortable with it to allow him to play.
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/foot...cle_0fa3ad7e-769e-59b0-aa99-35b2ec756554.html
"We did some extensive studies after the draft," Fisher said. "And it was determined and concluded by numerous physicians that he had a pre-existing condition that we don't feel will allow him to play."

Man, I didn't like watching that.

I don't want to compare those situations though. Is the diagnosis the same?

Yes. They have the same condition. But I don't know if the diagnosis is the same because there are likely differing levels of severity.

 

[RamzFanz]

That's not necessarily true. It doesn't mean one is wrong. The Mayo doctors said that the risk is low. They're not saying he has nothing wrong with him.



Yea but issue is that it's not just two opinions. There have been quite a few opinions on the matter and it seems the Rams just don't feel comfortable with it to allow him to play.
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/foot...cle_0fa3ad7e-769e-59b0-aa99-35b2ec756554.html
"We did some extensive studies after the draft," Fisher said. "And it was determined and concluded by numerous physicians that he had a pre-existing condition that we don't feel will allow him to play."



Yes. They have the same condition. But I don't know if the diagnosis is the same because there are likely differing levels of severity.

If Sasser went to a physician and said I've been cleared, I would totally agree with you.

He went to the best of the best. Again, the Mayo Clinic does heart transplants and is where an expert would go for advice. I would like to know who his team was so I could show you what I mean.

 

[jrry32]

If Sasser went to a physician and said I've been cleared, I would totally agree with you.

He went to the best of the best. Again, the Mayo Clinic does heart transplants and is where an expert would go for advice. I would like to know who his team was so I could show you what I mean.

Look, the Rams had to make a hard choice. It's a 6th round pick so you know they didn't want to let the guy go over nothing. If you have sought out opinions and all the doctors are telling you that he has HCM but differ in the risk you'd be taking, can you really blame them for not wanting to take that risk?

I posted a video of a young man who died on the court named Hank Gathers. Gathers was seemingly on his way to a NBA career. He was only the second player in NCAA Division I history to lead the league in scoring and rebounds in the same season. He died at age 23 during a game of the same condition that Sasser has.

Now, as I said, there are differing levels of severity and risk. But do you think the Rams want to be telling Bud's devastated mother that her son passed away at a young age because they "evaluated the risk and gave Bud the choice?"

If the risk is low, it's unlikely that happens. But it still could. And the Rams weren't comfortable with that. Who can blame them? The last thing you want as an organization is to admit that you knew a guy had a heart defect and you allowed him to play anyways. It makes you look ruthless and heartless.

 

[OldSchool]

If Sasser went to a physician and said I've been cleared, I would totally agree with you.

He went to the best of the best. Again, the Mayo Clinic does heart transplants and is where an expert would go for advice. I would like to know who his team was so I could show you what I mean.

Mayo Clinic specializes in research and education. For the record in cardiology they rank 2nd behind the Cleveland Clinic. And like Jrry said the Mayo clinic didn't say he was free and clear and no problems. They felt the problems, they acknowledge there are problems, are minimal. You get enough opinions you'll be able to find an expert who will agree with you.

 

[RamzFanz]

If you have sought out opinions and all the doctors are telling you that he has HCM but differ in the risk you'd be taking, can you really blame them for not wanting to take that risk?

It would depend on the doctors that gave the opinion, yes?

But do you think the Rams want to be telling Bud's devastated mother that her son passed away at a young age because they "evaluated the risk and gave Bud the choice?"

If you know anything about Fisher, the entire family would be a part of the decision so, they would already know and have signed off based upon SASSER'S expert's opinion, not the Rams' doctor. This would also shut the door on any lawsuit.

For the record in cardiology they rank 2nd behind the Cleveland Clinic.

Um, OK, second. Is that in the US or world? Does that not make them far more qualified to give an opinion on this matter?

They are 9.7 out of a 10 with only Cleveland scoring a perfect score. They are also a 5/5 for patient safety vs Cleveland's 3/5.

 

[RamzFanz]

According to this, he went to the best in the US and, perhaps, the world.

"Some hospitals are more expert than others in caring for patients with life-threatening or rare conditions. And people facing such health challenges need every bit of help they can get. That's why U.S. News & World Report has published annual rankings of the nation's Best Hospitals for the last quarter-century.

The 2014-15 rankings cover nearly 5,000 medical centers across the country and span 16 medical specialties from cancer to urology. Hospitals with very high scores in at least six specialties earned a spot on the Honor Roll. Just 17 hospitals made this year's list.

For the first time, Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota, claimed the No. 1 Honor Roll spot, barely edging out Massachusetts General Hospital. Johns Hopkins Hospital, which in 2012 lost a 21-year first-place reign, was No. 3."

The 2014-15 Honor Roll:

RankHospitalPoints*High-ranking specialties*
1Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minnesota2915
2Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston2815
3Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore2615
4Cleveland Clinic

 

[jrry32]

It would depend on the doctors that gave the opinion, yes?

Yes and no. But the Rams are a NFL organization. They're going to consult the best of the best.

If you know anything about Fisher, the entire family would be a part of the decision so, they would already know and have signed off based upon SASSER'S expert's opinion, not the Rams' doctor. This would also shut the door on any lawsuit.

A lawsuit is the least of their worries.

And it would not necessarily shut the door on any lawsuit.

 

[RamzFanz]

Yes and no. But the Rams are a NFL organization. They're going to consult the best of the best.

So... they went to Mayo?

 

[-X-]

I wonder if Sasser would sign a waiver indemnifying the Rams for any liability if something should happen. Because, let's face it, you don't screw around with the heart. The best Cardiologist on the planet could clear him, but that doesn't mean he's 100% safe.

 

[jrry32]

I wonder if Sasser would sign a waiver indemnifying the Rams for any liability if something should happen. Because, let's face it, you don't screw around with the heart. The best Cardiologist on the planet could clear him, but that doesn't mean he's 100% safe.

I don't think that's the problem. He probably was willing. I think the Rams don't want to risk a player dying with a medical condition they were aware of.

 

[-X-]

I don't think that's the problem. He probably was willing. I think the Rams don't want to risk a player dying with a medical condition they were aware of.

That's why I suggested what I suggested. The indemnification is for the Rams.
If he releases the Rams of any liability, then everyone's happy.

 

[jrry32]

That's why I suggested what I suggested. The indemnification is for the Rams.
If he releases the Rams of any liability, then everyone's happy.

That's my point. I'm sure he's willing to sign a waiver. But the Rams concern isn't as much over being sued as it is the fallout of something like that happening.

And the thing about the waiver is that you can't know with 100% certainty if it would stand in court. It likely would. But again, I don't think the lawsuit is what they're most concerned about.

 

[-X-]

That's my point. I'm sure he's willing to sign a waiver. But the Rams concern isn't as much over being sued as it is the fallout of something like that happening.

And the thing about the waiver is that you can't know with 100% certainty if it would stand in court. It likely would. But again, I don't think the lawsuit is what they're most concerned about.

Yeah, I guess you're right. Death is a bit more of a burden than being sued for sure.
Shame, really. This might cause all other teams to pass on him as well. No matter what the tests say.

 

[Akrasian]

That's why I suggested what I suggested. The indemnification is for the Rams.
If he releases the Rams of any liability, then everyone's happy.

Yeah, not so much. He can indemnify to his heart's content - but if something happens and his heirs sue, the Rams would still likely lose.

I can picture the testimony:

Sasser Attorney: So, Mr Snead, playing in the NFL is dangerous. Do the Rams have good doctors to protect their players?

Snead: Of course - the best we can find.

Attorney: And what did your doctors advise you?

Snead: Umm, that it Sasser was not fully healthy, and it would be dangerous for him to play in the NFL, more so than is normal.

Attorney: And what did you do?

Snead: Well, as is normal in such cases, we consulted leading specialists in the nature of the problem.

Attorney: And what did they advise you.

Snead: That it would be dangerous for him to play in the NFL.

Attorney: What happened next?

Snead: Well, Sasser consulted other doctors - we don't know how many - and the Mayo clinic told him and us that he had a condition, and that it probably wouldn't be more dangerous than average for him to play.

Attorney: At which point you had him sign a waiver to indemnify you against lawsuits - a requirement you set for him to follow his dream and play in the NFL?

Snead: Yes.

Attorney: So a billion dollar organization had a very young man sign away all his legal rights to sue, so that he could pursue his dream, even though you had multiple excellent doctors tell you that he was risking his life? Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this is an organization that had full knowledge of the risks, and let a young kid risk himself for a dream, even though they had knowledge that there was a significant risk of his death - they let this kid go to multiple doctors until he found one that said the risk wasn't THAT bad - even though the experts they routinely use disagreed. All so the team could make a LOT of money on the deceased. This GREED needs to be punished, this RECKLESSNESS with Sasser's life must be punished - obviously they had full knowledge of the risks and chose to ignore them, and encouraged this poor young man to ignore them in the hope of making a fraction of the money that the team makes.

____________________

Waiver or not, the Rams would likely lose the case. And the Rams know it. Once their doctors, and the specialists they brought in, advised against it - it would have taken extraordinary evidence to reverse their stance. And the Mayo clinic acknowledged the presence of a defect - just said it was manageable, after other specialists said not so much. There is the moral issue - the Rams didn't want a death on their heads. There is the team issue - a player dying on them would possibly shatter the team. And there is a liability issue - the Rams almost certainly would be found liable. Unfortunately, that is just the way it is.

 

[jrry32]

Yeah, not so much. He can indemnify to his heart's content - but if something happens and his heirs sue, the Rams would still likely lose.

I can picture the testimony:

Sasser Attorney: So, Mr Snead, playing in the NFL is dangerous. Do the Rams have good doctors to protect their players?

Snead: Of course - the best we can find.

Attorney: And what did your doctors advise you?

Snead: Umm, that it Sasser was not fully healthy, and it would be dangerous for him to play in the NFL, more so than is normal.

Attorney: And what did you do?

Snead: Well, as is normal in such cases, we consulted leading specialists in the nature of the problem.

Attorney: And what did they advise you.

Snead: That it would be dangerous for him to play in the NFL.

Attorney: What happened next?

Snead: Well, Sasser consulted other doctors - we don't know how many - and the Mayo clinic told him and us that he had a condition, and that it probably wouldn't be more dangerous than average for him to play.

Attorney: At which point you had him sign a waiver to indemnify you against lawsuits - a requirement you set for him to follow his dream and play in the NFL?

Snead: Yes.

Attorney: So a billion dollar organization had a very young man sign away all his legal rights to sue, so that he could pursue his dream, even though you had multiple excellent doctors tell you that he was risking his life? Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this is an organization that had full knowledge of the risks, and let a young kid risk himself for a dream, even though they had knowledge that there was a significant risk of his death - they let this kid go to multiple doctors until he found one that said the risk wasn't THAT bad - even though the experts they routinely use disagreed. All so the team could make a LOT of money on the deceased. This GREED needs to be punished, this RECKLESSNESS with Sasser's life must be punished - obviously they had full knowledge of the risks and chose to ignore them, and encouraged this poor young man to ignore them in the hope of making a fraction of the money that the team makes.

____________________

Waiver or not, the Rams would likely lose the case. And the Rams know it. Once their doctors, and the specialists they brought in, advised against it - it would have taken extraordinary evidence to reverse their stance. And the Mayo clinic acknowledged the presence of a defect - just said it was manageable, after other specialists said not so much. There is the moral issue - the Rams didn't want a death on their heads. There is the team issue - a player dying on them would possibly shatter the team. And there is a liability issue - the Rams almost certainly would be found liable. Unfortunately, that is just the way it is.

Lawsuits are always difficult to predict. The thing about this is that it will come down to the waiver. If the court accepts the waiver, the Rams can use express assumption of risk as a defense. Which means that it won't even reach the jury.

But there's also a real risk that the court would deem the waiver void as a matter of public policy.(or it could be considered unconscionable...but this is much less likely than void as a matter of public policy)

 

[CoachO]

If Sasser went to a physician and said I've been cleared, I would totally agree with you.

He went to the best of the best. Again, the Mayo Clinic does heart transplants and is where an expert would go for advice. I would like to know who his team was so I could show you what I mean.

If this was your son and the exact same things were being tossed around as to whether it not he was putting himself at risk..... Would you feel the same way?

He had a college education. He's a pretty smart kid. He has other options in life outside of PLAYING football.

We're not talking about him being at risk of some sort of career threatening INJURY. We're talking about him risking his life. If multiple doctors came to the conclusion that there was a risk I wouldn't want MY kid playing.

 

[iced]

The magic of 2nd opinions

 

[RamzFanz]

If this was your son and the exact same things were being tossed around as to whether it not he was putting himself at risk..... Would you feel the same way?

He had a college education. He's a pretty smart kid. He has other options in life outside of PLAYING football.

We're not talking about him being at risk of some sort of career threatening INJURY. We're talking about him risking his life. If multiple doctors came to the conclusion that there was a risk I wouldn't want MY kid playing.

If my child told me the experts said it was not what the team doctors thought, I would tell them it was up to them with an informed decision. Period. Experts are experts for a reason.

A person who works to reach the level of being drafted is a dedicated person who deserves a fair hearing, especially if the EXPERTS are on their side.

I'll give you an example. My cousin was a skydiving expert who earned money as a videographer. She absolutely loved her life. At 22, she had a parachute fail at treetop level, before she was an expert, and was in the hospital for months with 3 major surgeries to repair her hip. At 27 she was asked to video the US olympic skydiving team as an expert in her field.

The fuel in the plane was pumped in backwards clogging the plane's fuel filter with sediment.

Skydivers, at least at that time, sat on the floor and didn't use seat belts because they would rather jump in an emergency. The plane stalled on takeoff, nose dived, and my cousin was crushed by the people behind her.

Everything went wrong in a high risk sport and she died. Everyone along the way were experts except the guy who pumped the fuel.

If you ask the best skydiving company in the world if this dive is safe and they say yes, it's safe. But, it's only as safe as the activity itself.

Shit happens. People die in extreme sports. Is he at more of a risk and should he be erased from the opportunity? Not according to the experts.

 

[Mikey Ram]

Just my opinion, but I can't see where the Rams did anything to ruin his career...As was stated in another post, there are 31 other teams in the NFL...It seems that they just made the decision that they were most comfortable with...I'm certainly not a lawyer nor expert on the law, but I did have occasion to speak to an attorney who told me that in the situation that I was inquiring about, one is not obligated or even allowed to sign away his/her legal rights...My understanding was that many liability waivers would not survive a lawsuit...