Last 4 Years of drafting(L.Snead, T.Thompson, O.Newsome, J.Schneider, M.Brown, J.Elway)

[LesBaker]

No I'm not because you can't compare when we've had a plethora of premium picks from trades the likes that other teams during that same time period have not. So, like was mentioned, teams are doing about the same with less draft capital. That's kind of sad. Snead sure as freak better be AT LEAST at the same hit rate as other teams. Never mind the fact that the Ravens and Packers pick toward the end of the 1st, the Ravens have 3 1sts to our 6, or the SheHags 1st rounder to our 6. We can play this game all day long man.

Sorry. I made my point. Snisher has been a clusterfuck in four years on offense. Two real players and a bunch of average, if that, across the board.

And you know what?

I'm not of the opinion that going heavy on one side of the ball is a stupid ass way to address a team. Yes. I'm glad to have a stud defense. What does it freaking matter tho when they've on the field 60% of the time and we've averaging 11.6pts/game during loses.

We aren't even COMPETING on offense in the game we've lost. We're crapping the bed.

Beginning to think a dual strategy of addressing offense and defense competently throughout the 4 years would have yielded a more complete team rather than a one-dimensional team of utter crap.

Define "plethora".

Because I think it was like 5 premium picks in 3 years IIRC. That's not a plethora.

 

[Athos]

I would consider 7 1st round picks in 4 years a plethora. Quick actually counts since it was a vacated pick.

And that doesn't mention all the 2nd and 3rd round picks.

 

[LesBaker]

I would consider 7 1st round picks in 4 years a plethora. Quick actually counts since it was a vacated pick.

And that doesn't mention all the 2nd and 3rd round picks.

It was six, 4 of which were theirs anyway so it wasn't like they got oodles of extras.

The total for 2nd and 3rd rounders is not what you and others may think. After moves made this is how it shook out.

2012
One first
three seconds
one third

2013
two firsts
one third

2014
two firsts
one second
one third

2015
one first
one second
two thirds

So if we subtract what they would have gotten anyway by virtue of being in the draft we come up with: (check my work but I think I am correct)

2 extra seconds in 2012

1 extra first in 2013 (but no second rounder)

1 extra first in 2014

1 extra third in 2015

That's 5 "extra" picks in 4 years. Nice to have for sure, but not a total game changer since the odds on third rounders isn't great and even second rounders have a less than 50% hit rate. Looking at who they picked in the 2nd and 3rd it's hard to say Snead did a bad job unless someone has some sort of agenda regarding Snead, such as wishing he had picked "their guy" or whatever.

At worst you could say he did so-so but you can make an argument he is over the Mendoza line with 2nd's and 3rd's and has done well. Personally while I wish the picks on O had fared better I can't say Snead has done a poor job, in fact I think he has been very good and I hope they keep him if they decide to move on from Fisher.

 

[FRO]

As far as identifying and drafting defensive players Snead is outstanding. As far as putting together an offense he has failed. Bottom line.

 

[Athos]

I have no problem with Snead. He hits on UDFAs like no ones business.

But he's partly responsible for the offensive mess.

And if he's not and Fisher has had the main say in guys chosen... Then this organization is more of a mess than I thought and unquestionabley he should be fired.

But the logic behind robbing from the poor to feed the rich, so many premium picks on D instead of mixing it, has been a colossal failure.

Be nice to have Jeffery. Be nice to have Carr. Be nice to have one of the stud guards from early on in the draft.

Would our team have been worse early on? Who knows. Maybe.

I have a bet tho that if those early round picks were split more with the offense, we'd be a better all around team right now.

But we're not. We're mired yet again in mediocrity where the only "fun" comes from being the spoiler and wrecking other teams QBs since we don't have one ourselves.

 

[Rmfnlt]

Snead has been good. But lets not forget the ammo he has had and the fact they have been drafting at the top of the draft every year. The comps are teams that have drafted at the back end of the draft and the results are similar. If you did a value chart based on where they were drafted that would make for an interesting read.

It would be interesting.

I think the "value" as we Rams fans see it, depends on how the team is doing (usually).

If we're doing well, the value goes up.
If we're struggling, the value goes down.

Trying my darndest to be objective, I'd say Snead is about average. He's hit on some very good picks, but missed on a few as well.. average.

The difference, as you mention, is the ammo.

Snead gets all the credit in the world for fleecing a desperate Washington. And he was widely applauded for that move when it went down.

But, it's 4 years later and all those moves have resulted in a 4-6 team that is trending downward.

So, the sum of all the moves he's made... the acquisitions... the picks... is not doing much for me after 4 years.

I'll say he's average (the record doesn't say so, though)

 

[LACHAMP46]

@Mojo Ram @Athos

If you two don't stop with this Quick is a bust talk....Everyone will hear you. Same with Sted.....what did he ever do physically that kept him from being a player? I could throw Givens, Stacy, & .....somebody...slipped my mind. Oh yeah, Mason.....

Those are some great facts/stats Mojo.....Athos too, but until we get a decent QB, all the skilled position players are basically playing with one hand tied behind their backs....

Give the rebuilt line some time too...

this offensive failure on offense is on the QB....and yeah, that's Snead & Fishers fault....But it's also on the players...Starting with the signal caller.

 

[FRO]

To me the biggest failure is not building the offensive line in the draft starting in 2012. This waiting until year 4 of the rebuild to draft your line was a bit weak. Guys like Cordy Glenn and Larry Warford would have been great OGs and second round picks for us.

Another problem with the Snead Fisher draft philosophy is drafting super raw guys like Quick and Robinson as high as they did.

 

[Zombie Slayer]

It seems like we can all agree that Snead is a pretty good GM. Is this his first time as a GM? I'm not sure. I also think a lot of us can agree that we would like to see him stay on this team and have a change at HC to see how things shake out. We need a real HC and OC. I think Snead is pretty good. Obviously the offense is not good, but overall I think he has done a good job based on what this team was when he came here. At the very least I would say he is a top 10 GM, possibly top 5. I would like him to stay. I actually liked the fact that they went young on the OL. At least those guys have the chance to improve and get much better. It's too bad about the injuries though. Much better than bringing in more FA OL that have failed in the past like Wells, Long, Dahl, Brown, Joseph, etc. I honestly think if we had a better HC and OC, we wouldn't be talking about how terrible the offense is. JMO

 

[Mojo Ram]

-Those are some pretty Ho Hum drafts by some highly touted GM's.
-Snead had more ammunition...where did that ammunition come from? That's a weak argument when evaluating GM's and drafts. If one wants to take that angle, then these GM's were under far less pressure to "hit" on guys and the results weren't very good.
-I would have liked to have bolded the players still on each teams roster.
-It's a good thing the Packers have a QB because they haven't drafted a decent WR or RB in four years other than Lacy who has fallen off the face of the Earth this season. His defensive picks have been mostly crap too.
-I'd have to say that the Bengals have done well.
-If anything i think this points out possible coaching deficiencies at Rams park, not bad or failed drafting(concerning Snead).

 

[Limey]

With hindsight, they should have done more for the OL in the draft than taking Watkins in round 5 in 2012, but don't forget how little talent there was on the roster then. There were gaping holes just about everywhere on the team, and apart from the draft they also signed Wells as a FA, who iirc was regarded as the top FA centre that year, had been durable throughout his career and was probably seen as a cornerstone to construct an OL around. Taking an OG in round 5, when you have more holes than pieces in your team, wasn't draft heresy, the pick didn't pan out - it happens. The Pead pick was a bust as well, but remember that Snead was relying on the existing Rams scouts who hadn't identified a decent talent after round 2 in the whole of Spag's tenure.

With hindsight, they should have drafted OL in 2013, but instead they signed what was regarded as the top FA in any position that year to play LOT. With Long's injury history, that was a gamble. It didn't pay off. That happens.

They used the No2 overall pick on a LOT in 2014. With hindsight, they could have gone for a lower ceiling, higher floor guy, but I think it is too early to judge the Robinson pick yet. He was young for his draft class, played in about the most basic college offence imaginable and the plan to bring him along slowly went out of the window when Long got hurt again, which was made worse by the fact that he had taken preseason reps at OG and not OT, oh and his LOT position is probably the toughest OL spot to master. He hasn't been very good so far, but Jackie Slater hadn't even seen the field yet at this stage of his career and he didn't turn out too badly.
Given how their previous FA approach had gone (Long, Wells, Joseph all busts), finally addressing the OL via the draft this year was the right thing to do. With hindsight, should they have done it earlier? Probably, and it's easy to throw out names of good OL talent they didn't take. If they had taken those guys, we might not have had Austin or Ogletree or McDonald or Barron. Would we have been better off? Maybe, maybe not. You can always look at drafts with hindsight and find better players. It's also way too early to judge this year's draft. From what I have seen so far, I really like Havenstein and Brown (provided he is playing on the correct side of the OL) for the future, and I still think Wichmann was a steal in round 6 and will be a stud. I don't think Donnal is strong enough yet, but that doesn't mean that he won't be next year.

With hindsight, they started drafting OL too late, but turning back the clock wasn't an option, and it's better late than never. This franchise has had more than its share of "wait until next year", but most of those were not Snead or Fisher's fault. I wish we were winning this year. I wish we didn't have to "wait until next year" again, but when I look at where we are now in terms of present talent and developing talent compared to where we were when Snead and Fisher arrived, I have only respect for the job that Snead has done. I have great reservations about how Fisher runs his team, both in terms of discipline and in terms of overly conservative offensive game plan, but I still think we could have done a lot worse, and I hated him before we hired him.

 

[DaveFan'51]

I'm sold on Snead. I like him!! But I'm starting to think a few Offensive Assistants need to be replace WR Coach,:death: TE Coach,:death: OL Coach:death: and Maybe just Clean House on this side of the Ball:death:!!:baghead:

 

[junkman]

@Athos has been pretty spot on, hate to say. Yeah, the Rams had a lot of picks including extra high picks - 1sts and 2nds. It's kinda expected that he'd hit on more of them.

The Bradford thing is not Fisher/Snead's fault. Two ACLs in two years, that's just rough. By all rights, the Rams should have their franchise QB in fold, just wasn't meant to be. But they are guilty of not having a good developmental guy behind Bradford. Heck, even the Redskins got Cousins behind RGIII.

The usual complaints about busts notwithstanding, I'm just troubled in general by the lack of OL attention in the draft until this last year, and making wrong calls in free agency OL. That is, paid the big money to Scott Wells, Rodger Saffold, Jake Long, really only got most of one year from Long. Let Barksdale go, which wasn't the worst move if they had someone behind him. At least he was durable. And coming into this season with as few proven OL as the Rams did, just unforgivable.

Other issues (like a broken record):

• Every time I see news about Mason missing a bus, I think to myself that we could have had Gabe Jackson or Trai Turner. Mason wasn't really an upgrade over Zac Stacy, esp if he could have had one of those big Gs blocking for him.
• Every time I see Robinson have a mental lapse in pass protect, I think that maybe we should have taken Jake Mathews or even Taylor Lewan (who've both gotten over their rookie struggles) instead of Robinson. Heck, Rams might even have been better with Khalil Mack and Zach Martin rather than Robinson and Donald (blasphemy, I know).
• Quick and Pead should have been Alshon Jeffery and Bobby Wagner. Even Bobby Wagner STILL could have been Bobby Wagner, but they wanted that extra 5th round pick, which turned into ... Rok Watkins to pair with Pead.

At the end of the day, you're not expected to hit big on the late round picks. The occasional EJ Gaines picks are gravy. My issue is that Snead didn't get premium talent for his plethora of early round picks.

 

[Mojo Ram]

Many of you are focusing too much on the Snead drafts. You missed the point.
Mob Squad indeed.

 

[junkman]

You can always look at drafts with hindsight and find better players.

The only part of this post I take issue with is this. Lots of folks on this board are on the record with our 2nd guessing the day of the draft during the Snisher era.

• Tavon... wow, that was a lot to give up for him. Hope they have a plan for him because he could be special in the right system...
• Quick... who?? Wow, they must know something that nobody else does. I woulda just taken Jeffery.
• Pead trade down... hmm... ok. We kinda need a LB and Wagner, Kendricks and David are just sitting there... (and then Wagner and Kendricks both picked before our pick came up)
• Joyner should have been Garappolo, but we did need secondary help (and who knew that we'd be ok with Gaines and Roberson later)
• Mason was a bit of a head scratcher when we had Stacy and needed more OL or a QB.
• Mo Alexander was a bit of a head scratcher when we really needed more OL or a QB and had taken luxury pick Mason a round earlier.

Of course, we're not perfect either. I liked the Robinson pick with the thought that he was hand picked by Boudreau. I loved the Barrett Jones pick. I probably would have taken DeCastro rather than Brockers. I wouldn't have rolled the dice on JJenkins.

It is possible that Snisher's legacy in StL depends on if they find a QB. Donald + Brockers + Ogletree + McDonald + JJenkins + TruJo + Gaines + Joyner + Tavon + Gurley + Robinson + Havenstein has the potential to be a very good legacy of core quality players in draft. Barron was a quality trade. Quinn was a necessary re-sign. But it all falls apart if they don't get a QB to put the pieces together on game day (plus get the OL in shape). In the end, they had too many eggs in the Bradford basket and the Foles Hail Mary hasn't saved them.

PS - the money they spent on Fairley should have been spent on some fat-body DT and another quality veteran OL.

 

[drasconis]

Many of you are focusing too much on the Snead drafts. You missed the point.
Mob Squad indeed.

Just to be clear, are we discussing evaluating him ONLY on the drafting here...or his overall body of work. I just want to know how you were wanting to talk about this, because drafting is only 1 part of the GM job...don't want to derail it off topic...

Limiting it to just that I think he has done above average, lots of hits on D, some real questions on O (some of which may boil down to coaching). I do think he has had more to work with (pick # and top of the draft picks) than the other GMs you mention so not sure that is fair comparison (as others have mentioned those others tend to pick at the end of the draft, and honestly it is tougher to break into the starting roster on their teams). His overall hit rate seems on the higher end, but does seem to have some blind spots.

I do have to wonder how much is him and how much is JF, how would he do on is own....

 

[LACHAMP46]

Many of you are focusing too much on the Snead drafts. You missed the point.
Mob Squad indeed.

Okay your point is, the picks really aren't that bad, when compared to other successful teams. Correct?
But what many are trying to say is, with the needs of this team, OL & QB specifically, Snead & Fisher (can't tell me Jeff isn't steering Snead a lil) seemed to ignore obvious upgrades to gamble...the Gabe Jackson & Warford picks specifically.....and the way they all of a sudden started addressing the line in 2015. The QB situation is baffling too...Why not invest in protection of Sam? One 2nd round QB...Or one 1st...a late first...and I truly believe we wouldn't be here...at this place...
The coaching is handicapped...the offense is basically hamstrung because of the QB, with a huge assist from the piece-meal line...

 

[Mojo Ram]

My point was mainly to look outside the box. Snead busted a couple high end picks, traded up/down where maybe he should have stayed put etc...yet when you look around the league at other teams' body of work drafting(which i have), it looks pretty good when you consider how little some the "best" GM's have actually helped their teams in that same time span. Outside of 2012 the Seahawks have drafted very poorly, the Ravens are clearly suffering from bad drafting now, where are all the impact players drafted by the Packers? The Broncos?
Maybe i should have posted the Raiders drafts, the Cardinals, 49ers, Bears, Bucs, Lions. I think you'll find the same story for the most part. I've looked at it.

I get it that fans are pissed at Fisher and the losing right now. I'm tired too, but if anything i think the Rams' quality drafting has shown that the problems may lie somewhere else. Coaching for one.

IMO the one area Snead has failed in, is finding a dynamic impact WR. The Rams decided to buy an offensive line early, so i don't get the criticism there. The QB situation? Bradford was the guy for two years. Unfortunately he didn't play. Both those situations didn't work out. Shit happens. That doesn't make the 2012, 2013 drafts bad drafts.

Thanks for posting the numbers @flv

 

[TexasRam]

Overall the Snead/Fish regime has drafted well.

What I want to know is who's bright idea was it to go into a make or break season with an oline consisting of two rookies, an untested center, an injury prone guard and a bust LT.

Look at it this way:

RT - Unproven rookie
RG - Unproven rookie
C - Unproven
LG - injury prone every year, failed physical
LT. - struggling 2nd year player

You are out of your freaking mind if you think that oline is going to cut it.

 

[tklongball]

This thread is a little 'Hindsight-ish' for me. 1. We had the extra early draft picks because of a trade Snead executed, you can't ignore that if you are honestly evaluating him. Also, the plan was to build the D first. While he was doing that, he was trying to address the OL with free agents. Obviously it didn't work, but you can't act as if he ignored the OL, it is just that what he tried didn't work. I think Snead has done an outstanding job overall. You can nit-pick individual moves, but in my opinion,anybody who thinks that he has done a sub-par job either has unrealistic expectations, or just wants to dislike him because he is part of the current regime, and we are not winning.

Players ultimately have to make the plays. In order to do that they have to be healthy enough to be on the field, and be coached in a way that they have a chance to be successful. None of that is on the GM.