Goff full analysis (or so I say so)--ZN inspiration

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SteveBrown

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Goff arm strength? Leads all QB's with 28 completions over 20yds 2nd with 5 completions over 40 yds.

Yeah, Goff's a weak 'som bytch:homercrawl:
IN comparison to the other top 25 QBs in the NFL I think only Ben, Ryan and Case have weaker arms. Who cares, Montana had one of the weakest arms in 1993-94, but he was playing at the higest level still. I saw him throw a rainbow on 19 yard crossing pattern in KC (live). HIs timing was incredible!

Any QB, even the weak armed Ryan can throw 52-55 yards....But, Ryan at 52 loses his accuracy, while Goff can throw 65 and maintain accuracy. Enormous difference.

Arm strength matters when you can't step forward and plant.....which for most QBs is 5-6 key times a game. FOr Goff it is 0 times a game, usually--becaues of the awesome Oline. Having a strong arm is related to dealing with in your face rush, and you have to throw off your back foot. Everett was the king of this--because he wasn't a tough guy. Oh sorry, I must be wrong. ALL opinion....my brudders.
 
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Malibu

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I agree with everything. I would add his placement of the ball so the wr has a chance for YACs so important. Bradford threw to the body Goff throws to a spot. Big difference.

Also this year he is extremely comfortable at the LOS changing plays or getting guys into the position. He doesn't worry about the clock he now has an internal clock in his head.

I will say the pin point accuracy was insane in the Minnesota game. The throw to Gurley, Kupp in the back of the endzone, Woods and bomb to Cooks all literally perfect throws each in the exact spot they needed to be in. He has over 72% completion percentage which is 2nd in the league crazy great QBs like Brees, Brady Warner are in the mid 60s.

Will say the oline has been soooo amazing I too would like to see how he reacts under alot more pressure. We have only given up 6 sacks this season which is insane.
 

bubbaramfan

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Don't know why folks think Goff is weak armed. Goff has more completions over 40 yards than any other QB over the last two years.
Tell me Goff has a weak arm after watching his lasers with hardly any arch in the Viking game.

I hope all the Rams next oponents db's and safties believe he has a weak arm too.
 
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IN comparison to the other top 25 QBs in the NFL I think only Ben, Ryan and Case have weaker arms. Who cares, Montana had one of the weakest arms in 1993-94, but he was playing at the higest level still. I saw him throw a rainbow on 19 yard crossing pattern in KC (live). HIs timing was incredible!

Any QB, even the weak armed Ryan can throw 52-55 yards....But, Ryan at 52 loses his accuracy, while Goff can throw 65 and maintain accuracy. Enormous difference.

Arm strength matters when you can't step forward and plant.....which for most QBs is 5-6 key times a game. FOr Goff it is 0 times a game, usually--becaues of the awesome Oline. Having a strong arm is related to dealing with in your face rush, and you have to throw off your back foot. Everett was the king of this--because he wasn't a tough guy. Oh sorry, I must be wrong. ALL opinion....my brudders.
First off, thanks for doing such a thorough analysis! But I have to strongly disagree about Goff having a weaker arm than all but the guys you mentioned. He threw 58 mph at the combine when he was 21, which is better than Wentz (57), Bortles (56), Dalton (56), Garoppolo (56), Mariota (56), Newton (56), Flacco (55), Trubisky (55), Wilson (55), Winston (55), Prescott (54) or Watson (49!). It's actually easier to name the starters who threw harder: Allen (62), Mahomes (60) and Cousins (59). (Some guys didn't throw and others predated combine velocity measurement.) And of course, a lot of those guys were significantly older than Goff at the time of their respective combines. If you're basing your opinion on what you've seen in games, I'd ask how you know Goff was throwing it as hard as he could? When Troy Aikman admitted wondering whether Goff would have enough arm to reach Brandin Cooks on a deep post based on earlier underthrows, he was assuming the underthrows were due to a lack of arm strength rather than simple misjudgment. But that is not a fair assumption.

Regarding hand size, I think it's overblown. Goff hands are 3/8" smaller than Darnold's and Rodgers', 1/4" smaller than Mahomes' and Mayfield's, 1/8" smaller than Kaepernick's and Alex Smith's, 1/8" bigger than Romo's and 1/2" bigger than Vick's! (Take a look at a ruler and see how big a quarter inch is.) Many of those guys throw/threw beautiful spirals basically every time, including Romo and Vick. Meanwhile Peyton Manning's 10 1/8" threw flutterballs constantly. In any case, I wouldn't change a thing about Goff's right arm, shoulder to fingertip, for fear of upsetting the balance of his mechanics. Whatever he's got, it looks to me just about perfect for throwing footballs.
 

SteveBrown

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First off, thanks for doing such a thorough analysis! But I have to strongly disagree about Goff having a weaker arm than all ...ls.
I would never use the MPH at the combine as valid.

And, my point about strong arm is related to throwing from the waist up, without hips, legs and ankle action etc. If you include a full body throw Goff is 'even steven' with most....or as strong as needed. Wentz on Sunay made a throw without using his lower body---it was very nice...this is 5% of a QBs success...but just another thing in the arsenal....Wentz has it in spades, GOff doesn't...not yet.

SO, GOff has a good arm....but, can't throw off his back foot..that comes from body strength and torque. I don't think Brees can, either....This is just a reality.

He has NOWHERE near the strength of mahommes (1 mph velocity is not so big)....those combine RPMs are worthless. Case Keenum is soooo weak, but look at his combine RPMs.
 

FarNorth

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Goff analysis (please add or subtract as you deem)

Where he is better Goff: 2017 vs 2018 (small changes lead to big results)

Goff last year wasn’t throwing into tight windows I think because he was on a short leash because he didn’t know the system. Compared to Warner who was ripping it, and Martz didn’t care, because he knew the yards and TDs would also come because of this mentality. In my opinion, as a thrower, only Rogers tops him. I think he is much more accurate than Warner (throw after throw). Montana was accurate, but not consistent with distance and timing at 50+ yards like Goff is. Goff is soooo accurate that to not allow him to throw into tight windows is a HUGE reduction of his talent. Bulger was a mostly very accurate QB, but Martz was afraid in the 2003 playoff game to allow him that leeway. And, it cost the Rams the game. Bulger was in year 4 of the system….I mean, come on, right? This freedom has resulted in a 10 ypa average!! I also think that Goff is more accurate at 40+ yards down the field this year….but the same accuracy everywhere else.

The long ball accuracy: keeping the ball in the proper “east-west” location is as important as the right distance. Chris Miller was one of the best deep ball throwers ever. Goff, to me, is beginning to be like Miller. The Ball seems to be in the right ‘east-west’ location, not just distance (north-south). One of the worst right now is Matt Ryan (for comparison).

Related to tight windows:
Part of the reason he threw no endzone interceptions last year was because he wasn’t looking to be a super star. This year he is much more aggressive…and with this comes some interceptions. That int in the redzone against Seattle wasn’t “his fault” (it was, hold on); but, really he should know that there is a 10-25% of the ball being tipped in ithgt coverage at the goal line with 5 guys surround that receiver….yep, actually, it was his fault. The goal line defender is allowed to swarm the receiver---the refs allow it, and Goff should know this already.

When people improvise (in speaking, or throwing the ball, or hitting out of the rough in golf) the performance usually drops because the mind has to adjust to the ‘new’ environment. Some people thrive in improvisation, while most in fact fall or fail. Because Goff didn’t have the core strength to throw balls accurately, or with velocity when his feet weren’t right, he had many flutters last year--- he wasn’t prepared in a split second, and his body couldn’t respond because it wasn’t strengthened enough.. This year he looks much more able to improvise---meaning his mind is ready, he can adjust his arm angle and probably his core strength is better because his throwing velocity is more consistent.

The ball looks like it is coming out ‘cleaner’, all the time, as compared to last year. He also has been throwing from more unique arm-angles this year---while, also having the ball on target. His throwing strength is soooo much better this year overall. And lastly, Goff has improved in pocket awareness and moving around, and running if needed.

Goff Strengths:
*Elite throwing accuracy at all levels (albeit, without elite velocity, but good enough velocity).
Some of his throws over LBs and to TE (Higs) vs Dallas and a few others are throws that no other QB makes. I am not sure Brady or Brees would think they could make those throws (based on the D-lineman coming at them, and angles etc.). Most QBs throw the ball too hard these days: they can’t take any velocity off, AND still release the ball in time. so most of them just throw the ball away. Goff's anticipation helps him because he throws a bit softer, so he has to throw a millisecond faster---and his softer throws make for an easier completion at 1-8 yards of the LOS.

*He anticipates at probably near elite levels, too.
Even what looks like a bad throw, usually is a very good throw:
His back-shoulder to Kupp at the 2 yard line looks like a throwaway, but it is in the only place Kupp could catch it, and retain the ball so he wouldn’t fumble (as the defender was coming over). It hit Kupp’s hands. That ball travled 35 yards or so I think.
*Goff has timing and release at very good levels: He has room to grow here. He, one day, will be using his wrist even more when he needs to. He still has to build strength to do this.

*Intelligence: he is waaaay up there…and it is ‘functional’ intelligence, unlike Bradford who can’t seem to use that intelligence to produce anything. He knows when to dump off—and the ball is perfectly located, even though a hit is coming.

*Leadership: like Montana people will rally around him. Notice the entire Cal squad got I a room to see him drafted. What other college teams do that for their QBs??? Name them, please. This type of leadership builds a team. He respects people, and so people respect him---then they see him throw, and they are in awe, lol. His humbleness also could be at such a high level because he can’t be a jerk and have speech diction like he has---can’t say it any other way, sorry.

*Temperment: No ego, no yelling, no adrenaline rushes that say ‘look at me’, small pride, or so it seems. Who can’t like that? In football, liking who you play with is much more important than baseball and basketball (and prob hockey). By nature this causes team-building—even the biggest jerks have to like Goff, lol!
This provides an atmosphere of ‘learning’. Why? Because less intelligent players will build something with him because they aren’t afraid of him intellectually, even though he graduated at 3 yeas with a 3.6 GPA---unlike Brady and Manning who can’t stand people who aren’t perfect (lol) like them. By the way, Manning ain’t smart.

*Goff doesn’t throw the ball in the position where the defender can make a play—almost ever. Actually, this might be at the highest level in the NFL. (ya, he does have 1-2 really questionable throws a game, I know). This ability to not compromise the catch point, or the WRs health, is a spatial intelligence because he has to know that in the 1.5 seconds the ball gets to the WR, that the defender can’t make a play on it at knee or ankle level, and then he throws it exactly there! Few, few, few can do this. Marino did, I think. Elway never did this….he just ripped it. Though he was a great ripper!

*Adrenaline maintenance: Terry Bradshaw was saying that most QBs get so pumped up, and then the D-lineman add to that adrenaline level, and then the QB they can’t maintain calmness, thinking, processing---then they throw the interception. Montana was probably the all-timer in this; Phil Simms had a problem with this aspect of his game. Goff might be the best in the NFL at adrenaline reducement.

*He throws the most catchable ball in the NFL outside of Case K, lol (nose doesn’t dive with so much velocity)….this, IDK, might be more about the firmness/softness with which he throws—or the nose up. Bradford has the most uncatchable ball in NFL history in my opinion. Goff is an artist, he ain’t no TJ Rubley. ON short routes he throws the ball to the waist where the LB or safety can never hit it out when they are running over----a ball at the waist is harder for the defender to knock out, or knock away. In these days, I see most all QBs doing this, but Goff is 100% doing this on every throw out of the backfield or on crossing patterns, when it is necessary. It is never random where the ball is arriving, unlike Dak Prescott, or Wentz for example.

Goff Weaknesses
*Core strength: it is very evident to me that he is weak compared to almost any QB in the NFL. Watch Jim Everett to see how many times he threw off his back foot. Everett was strong. Goff can’t do that. He will be able to do that some day because of his wrist action---maybe to probably. We all get stronger until 28-30, so he has 5 years to ‘get there’, lol.

*Scanning: he is probably just average, but an upgrade from last year; but, look at Brady and Ryan their first 2 years, and you will find the same thing. Brady was just ok in 2001….and look at his 90 yards passing at the 2 min drill in the superbowl 36…

*Small hands: yep, it ain’t going away, and it is real. And, Goff is making it look unimportant. Did you see the Seattle game when the ball slipped out? Small hands affect spiral mostly (that is why Brees has such clean looking throws---huge hands).

*Physicality: when you are slight build you need your whole body to throw. Rogers was 185 pounds as a fresh/sophomore at Cal---now he is 225. When you are slight of build, you can’t do things other QBs do. So, you have to set up perfect, get your feet right, understand what angles you can throw at depending on feet direction etc. Goff is doing this A LOT better this year, so we don’t notice it. But, he has the #1 pass blocking line in the NFL. IF he has a bottom 10 line would notice this big time.

Where he needs to improve:
*Pocket awareness- when someone isn’t afraid,like Warner, it is easy to not have pocket awareness; I wonder if this is Goff’s problem, too.
*Scanning: he is doing a great job for a 3rd year guy. But, he isn’t at Wentz-level, yet…..he will be.
*Core strength

Not a weakness, BUT:
My only ‘problem' with saying Goff is the best:
He has the best pass blocking line in the NFL. He throws the ball without anyone coming at him to knock him down like it seems 70% of the time. What would Brady or Brees or Matilda Ryan or Wentz be like if they had that comfortability in the pocket? I want to see Goff play a game (like vs. Vikings in 2017) where he is uncomfortable all the time, but still putting up 8 ypa. He is at 10 ypa, which is Warner-like greatness. I actually believe he is better than Kurt already---though who was tougher than Kurt with that awful interior O line? Oh, and Goff has the best 3 route running WRs in the NFL....so, he has a lot that other QBs don't have. For example: Went'z WRs are weak.

Conclusion:
I have watched between 4-7 full NFL games 52 weeks a year the last 7 years. Usually, 1980-1988 and current day stuff. I have studied football quite a bit, too.
And so I say:
Goff is soooo special. Rare special; HOWEVER, a good part of his success is related to the incredible O line play. I have not seen ANY QB ever have the protection that Goff has had in 2017-2018. IF Goff were to produce like he is now without this great O line, I will say it again, he is on a Brees trajectory (lol, many laughed when I said this in the off season---and now, you know it is true!!!!!).

If I were to ignore that beautiful aspect of our O line greatness that Goff enjoys, I would say Goff is a better pocket passing QB than anybody right now—even Rogers and Brady. But, you can’t ignore the fact of our O line supporting him. When Rogers lost his LT and one other guy a few years ago (2015?) his YPA was 6.7---that is below average. How can that be? IT is a team sport. Goff benefits from this more than any QB I have ever watched. Marino had a great line, but a lightening release. Marino was still hit a lot! Goff, no.

For fun and to ruin any preconceptions of me:
Had Chris Miller had McVay, we would say Miller is one of the greats to play QB. Miller ran a 4.6 coming out, and no one threw consistently well like he did in 1989-1991…not Marino, no one. No one knew who he was because Atlanta sucked until 1991 (and Miller was always hurt). Miller was tough, and supposedly smart….but, golden arm like Goff…and a 1 handicap, to boot.
Like your enthusiasm, agree with many of your points, but some imo are not quite right. You are understating his physical ability which seems to me pretty self evident at this point.

Goff is not lacking velocity at all. He had the best or nearly best velocity at his draft combine, better than say Wentz. He can smoke the ball on a rope when he wants to. This is key to his ability to throw into small windows. Not sure how many guys in the NFL can surpass him, maybe a few but not many. Also threw the deep ball really well in college, this is not new, and has shown he can throw it 65-70 yards downfield with perfect accuracy.

"Weak" core strength compared with almost any other quarterback? What's the support for this?? Suspect that if you asked Ted Rath you would get a vastly different story. Goff is bigger and stronger than you think, 220+. He just has a big frame with long arms. It's true he is getting stronger. He's noticeably more solid than last year. He will be 235 or 240 within a couple of years. I think he will develop on a similar path as Rodgers.

Can't throw the ball off his back foot? Much better to throw it correctly. Because Goff is paying lots of attention to using good mechanics, and performing at a very high level with his physical command of all aspects of his position, doesn't mean he could not throw with bad mechanics on a given play if he had to. For example his scramble and throw to Kupp for a perfect td against the Vikings.
 
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Prime Time

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First of all I'm thrilled to watch Jared Goff grow as an NFL QB week after week. We as Rams fans are blessed to have this young man lead the offense. But I would like to throw something else into the mix for your consideration. This has to do with comparing Goff with Montana or any QB from an earlier era, even the early years of Brady, Elway, Brees, or Manning, etc.

With the rule changes that favor the offense and the overzealous protection of the QB's, especially evident so far this season, it would seem like Goff and any other QB playing today would have a definite advantage over those who played before them. Thoughts?
 
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I would never use the MPH at the combine as valid.

And, my point about strong arm is related to throwing from the waist up, without hips, legs and ankle action etc. If you include a full body throw Goff is 'even steven' with most....or as strong as needed. Wentz on Sunay made a throw without using his lower body---it was very nice...this is 5% of a QBs success...but just another thing in the arsenal....Wentz has it in spades, GOff doesn't...not yet.

SO, GOff has a good arm....but, can't throw off his back foot..that comes from body strength and torque. I don't think Brees can, either....This is just a reality.

He has NOWHERE near the strength of mahommes (1 mph velocity is not so big)....those combine RPMs are worthless. Case Keenum is soooo weak, but look at his combine RPMs.
I'm not sure why you're so dismissive of combine velocity. Mahomes trails only Allen among starters, which seems right to me. Keenum came in at 55 (which I accidentally omitted in my original post), similar to Wilson, which also seems reasonable. Since Goff was a freshman at Cal, I've watched him throw the deep out with ease. But regardless of whether Goff's arm strength isn't as good as Wentz's without their feet set, you made a much stronger claim than that: "only Ben, Ryan and Case have weaker arms". To suggest that Goff has a weaker arm than Brady, Brees, Dalton, Garoppolo, Luck, Manning, Mariota, Prescott, Rivers, Smith, Watson, Wilson or Winston is, frankly, absurd.
 

LesBaker

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However, I have never seen anyone sit in a clean pocket as often or as long as Brady.

Marino had more time in the pocket consistently over a big part of his career than any QB I can remember. Brady recently, meaning last handful of years, is approaching that kind of pocket time though I will admit.

Also Aikman had protection that was as good or better than Brady's for a large part of his career. That OL and the Dolphins OL back when Marino was their QB are in the discussion for best ever. At least in the SB era.

The Steelers back in their dynasty days and the Redskins "Hogs" are in the conversation too.

It's hard to pick one as I am typing this though..........all were so dominant.

I would lean towards the Cowboys being the best ever I guess. I remember Aikman having loads of time and Smith having big enough holes that two RB's could have gotten through.
 

FarNorth

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I dont agree with the bit about about Goffs "speech diction".
I dont believe your average athelete notices or cares AT ALL, nor do I think it is any kind of problem for anyone except maybe the 2 - 5% of the population whose standards on proper enunciation or grammar would make them real popular in a lockerroom.

Other than that, great job.
If you want to hear bad diction listen to McVay. He has great ideas, gets them across clearly, but mangles the diction repeatedly. With respect to Goff: He is leading the offense and managing the play calling brilliantly, with the ability to spit out at least two plays called in at once plus line of scrimmage changes. He is also a really articulate guy. Not sure what the OP had in mind, but not sure what more you would want from a young qb.
 

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hand size is a concern, but they're big enough to make big time throws! however, I don't wanna see any more of those slips.... I saw the same thing in the She game, that's concerning when you see it slipping out of his hand in the replay.

Rain?

Remember too, that Fisher and Snead worked him out in the rain and that actually sold them.

Not too worried about slips.
 

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I liked Romo's comment that Goff could throw in a phone booth. Bet a lot of young viewers where wondering what a phone booth is. He said he throws it the right way with his shoulder. IIRC Goff doesn't need a lot of space to throw from was his point. Wentz can wing it but he does take big strides too. Of course Wentz doesn't always need a big stride.

I think Goff throws a very catchable ball. Even when a little off target the WRs are able to make the catches. The two throws to Kupp last year where he put a little extra mustard on them where missed. (I'm sure you know which two). I think he throws hard enough when he wants to.

I would love to see the NFL use the Golf technology with the trajectory and speed of the ball in flight. Not to over use but, to help give us an idea of the different throws quarterbacks make and compare. That bomb to Cooks (Vikings game) is a great example of Goff putting the ball on a lower trajectory to reach Cook faster than the one that was underthrown IIRC against the Chargers. Even Goff said he threw it lower or something like that to Cooks on the bench after the throw, to get it there faster. I guess they use it in baseball on home runs and throws from the outfield. I'm surprise we don't see in football.

Goff is only going to get stronger and better so watch out NFL.
 

SteveBrown

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: "only Ben, Ryan and Case have weaker arms". To suggest that Goff has a weaker arm than Brady, Brees, Dalton, Garoppolo, Luck, Manning, Mariota, Prescott, Rivers, Smith, Watson, Wilson or Winston is, frankly, absurd.
Ooops you are right about Rivers and Brees!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks. And well, Luck has an awful arm, now--you are right.
The others, well, we are all opinionated....I must be wrong :)
 

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Everett threw off his back foot--Goff never. Goff can't do that and be consistently effective-just my opine, friend.
Goff has great footwork and doesn’t need to throw off back foot. Throwing off back foot isn’t a skill, it’s a mistake.
No bigger fan of Everett than me, but what you are talking about is what held him back from being great, not what made him great. Everett didn’t have good footwork and relied on his arm strength too much imo and threw some head scratcher bad passes
 

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When I think of Goff's arm strength I think of Jordan Speith's golf game. Speith is not the longest hitter but he's long enough. Its the other parts of his game that made him one of the best. He's cool under pressure.

Goff's arm strength is not Aaron Rogers or Patrick Mahomes but it strong enough to make all the necessary throws. There really aren't any throws he can't make. But what is setting him apart this season is his leadership and cool under pressure.

What I've been witnessing the past few games is a poised quarterback leading his team and making the necessary plays when they need it. To think he's this good and turning 24 years old is mind boggling. He looks like an established veteran star out there. Think Joe Montana in his prime. And Goff is not in his prime yet.
 

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When I think of Goff's arm strength I think of Jordan Speith's golf game. Speith is not the longest hitter but he's long enough.

I’m thinking Adam Scott long compared to Bubba or Dustin Johnson...

He’s a long hitter and near the top but not top 2.
Scott is 28th at 304 and change; Spieth is 62nd at 299.7...
But that is hair splitting...5 yards.
 
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Goff's sister remarked shortly after Goff was drafted or maybe even during the draft process. That Goff all the time growing up would lay on the floor in the living room and throw the ball towards the ceiling mastering the control he has over the ball. He wouldn't throw it to hit the ceiling he'd throw it to get it as close as possible before it fell back down to him to throw again. She mentioned this because it drove her crazy while she'd be trying to watch TV.

You can see that mastery and control that Goff has over the ball. It is never spinning too fast, it's never so hard he's going to break receivers fingers. It's just the perfect mix of velocity and ball spin that lands right in the proper location.
 

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I’m thinking Adam Scott long compared to Bubba or Dustin Johnson...

He’s a long hitter and near the top but not top 2.
Scott is 28th at 304 and change; Spieth is 62nd at 299.7...
But that is hair splitting...5 yards.
Lol, I was gonna say Jason Day or Justin Rose long, not top 2 but top 10 for sure
 

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First of all I'm thrilled to watch Jared Goff grow as an NFL QB week after week. We as Rams fans are blessed to have this young man lead the offense. But I would like to throw something else into the mix for your consideration. This has to do with comparing Goff with Montana or any QB from an earlier era, even the early years of Brady, Elway, Brees, or Manning, etc.

With the rule changes that favor the offense and the overzealous protection of the QB's, especially evident so far this season, it would seem like Goff and any other QB playing today would have a definite advantage over those who played before them. Thoughts?

they can only play what's in front of them.

but it's ridiculous when people use stats to try and prove a qb from this era is better than one from an earlier era. the nfl is trying to make the defenses equivalent to those poor schmucks that played the harlem globe trotters, just there to laugh at as they bumble their way through games.

what's not really getting tested now is the qb's courage. in older film you would see qbs panicking when the rush came near as they knew the d rushers were actually gonna hurt them. now a d player can't even hit a qb hard without the fear of a flag. this is the main reason qbs stats are better as any nfl caliber qb is much better when they don't feel pressured. for this reason the noncalls for holding on pass rushers is also a major factor. the refs aren't gonna let qbs get hit.

another reason is old school coaches like fisher and fox are getting shown the door while young, innovative coaches are taking over and playing more aggressive offense. alot of gimmicky offense that defenses haven't quite caught up to yet and rules that make it hard for them to counter it.

.