"F" Tight Ends, 12 Personnel, and Wideouts

[Merlin]

Disclaimer: this is a long and rambling post because I'm bored and waiting on Friday. Read at your own risk.

One thing I have been thinking about for a while now as I watch McVay's offense change year to year with different players is the old predominance of 11 sets in McVay's best offenses. The link between the higher performance overall and its correlation to 11 sets.

Now first off I realize that OL performance has impacted our offense, as has QB performance. But I want to set those two things aside for the purpose of this discussion, assuming anyone thinks this discussion is relative to things as I do. We don't need another Goff or OL thread, we have beat them both to death and I want to move on as it were.

Back to the 11 sets I associate the higher success in the passing game to the multiplicity of matchup problems we presented to defenses during those seasons. Say what you will about Cooks but we really felt his loss in 2019 (concussion and confidence issues even when he was on the field) and 2020 (none of our guys were able to step up and replace him). Waiting in the wings for this season is Jefferson, but also Jackson. Are either of those guys up to snuff when compared to 2018 Brandin Cooks? I'm curious what you guys think but for me I would say no. So it is possible I think that the Rams draft a WR to help address that shortfall, and I would just suggest that if they were to do that having special teams impact would be of very high value which means a guy like Eskridge seems to fit, to my eye at least, because he can do things like returns or even gunner. To me at least he's a perfect fit for what we need and should be a guy they can target with their picks (I see him slated quite a bit in round 3-4 range). I like some others too, like Amari Rodgers, but he's not quite as good a fit on the teams side.

But adding wideout is not the only way to improve this offense. My theory here is that the 11 personnel rates being so high in 2017 and 2018 related moreso to talent comparison between our third wideout vs Everett than it did some preference of McVay's to get all 11 crazy. He basically put the best guys on the field. And so it jives that we suddenly see a return to more 12 sets in 2020 when our third wideout option is much more limited and allowed for Everett to get on the field more as part of a 12 set.

If that is true what does that mean for our TE position? Well to me it means that TE offers significant room for upgrade. But what type of TE are the Rams going to be looking for? The answer is an "F" type TE would be their target. Looking at our depth chart we have one "F" type option, that being Hopkins. Who we have discussed quite a bit around here. And who, no matter what any of us may think about him, failed to even so much as sniff the field last year, even late in the year when things aligned for him to get a look or two. For me this is an important tell.

Now there is a part of me that wonders what Higs can do if the Rams were to add a classic blocking TE and move him to more of a pass game role. But of course scheme plays a big role in all that, where if they did get a good blocking TE then why not use them both on the inline which allows for more deception. And honestly I'm not sure what Higs will be if they were to give him primary looks in the pattern in this offense with 9 throwing him the ball. That may be a discussion in and of itself but for this post I will assume they want an "F" upgrade who can hold his own in comparison to the wideout group.

How many TEs in this draft can do that? Well that's kind of a depressing question. But there's a silver lining IMO as it pertains to the Rams because what you're seeing in college is a tendency to play guys who have that "F" build of big size and good feet/athleticism as wideouts. In a way it's sort of trending like Edge/DE has where multiplicity has driven scouts to view them more on what things they do well vice whether they fit one specific scheme. So this is a long way of saying that there are some very big and mobile WRs in this draft who could "move to TE" for us which tbh is nothing more than playing them inside the hash. Which, btw, is another trend that has affected the defenses and why we see 20 used in the slot in our defense but that's another interesting discussion in and of itself to me at least.

What does this mean for the draft? It means some of the big wideouts who maybe aren't the best route runners might be in play for us. I say some of them because you still have to have some physicality to you in order to be an F type TE. Plus the Rams require their passing game weapons to at the very least be willing to block and get in the way for the ball carrier. Who would be fits for that role? Well to my eye here's a few:

Brevin Jordan. Better version of Everett coming out in terms of his run game threat with the ball. The guy is nasty when he gets that rock in space. He's gonna need a little time but down the road he's the kind of weapon that might be able to challenge for some playing time vs the wideout group. The type of TE that McVay seems to prefer. I don't love his film but that upside is real.

Simi Fehoko. I love Fehoko's film. He's got a real nice fluid nature to his movement, good all around player who also has strength in his game and some suddenness for that big a frame. The guy is a perfect fit as an F in this offense IMO. His future in the NFL is TE IMO. And best of all the guy is slated to go in a range the Rams are all over.

Hunter Long. He's one of those sneaky types that ends up getting open. The guy is productive. He won't smoke an ILB one on one with high percentage but he'll get open over and over somehow because he's a balanced guy that can get overlooked. Not a great athlete but I think he could help us opposite Higbee sort of like Friermuth would. Note that these types of TEs are not what McVay seems to prefer. But since he'd be able to start for us rather quickly I have to think he would be in play assuming they're not secretly high on Hopkins.

What will be interesting is if Friermuth is there at 57. He looks like Herman Munster to me. The guy is not sudden or a speed threat by any stretch. But he trucks DBs like an older brother. So idk. Definitely not an F in this offense but I find myself wondering what he would do in that role for us.

 

[Memento]

If Freiermuth is available at our second round pick (without trading up), you take him without hesitation. No offense meant to Hopkins, but Freiermuth is a potential elite tight end who would be a first round pick if healthy. He seriously gives me Gronkowski-lite vibes.

 

[dieterbrock]

 

[Riverumbbq]

For 2021 and a team which could potentially and realistically be in a Super Bowl race, i'm looking for an immediate impact out of my highest draft picks. Unless McSnead has already dropped Hopkins into 'bust' territory, i'm just not seeing how using a top draft pick on a TE fits with that desire for an early impact player. Sure, if BPA were our only measure, perhaps a TE would qualify, but this can be a notoriously lengthy position for developmental players, so I have to ask how many quality snaps might we expect from what in 2021 may be our #3 or 4 TE ?
While I agree on the need for greater depth at TE, for a team aiming as high as we are THIS year, i'd have preferred a proven veteran free agent. jmo.

 

[FrantikRam]

I've made my position on TE pretty clear, no need to rehash. But I wouldn't be surprised if we trade for Zach Ertz during the draft. I'm not saying it's a great idea, but I just get the vibe that we might, not sure why. Gut feeling. We have the space to make it work, and we could even involve Hekker and/or Havenstein to create more space.

I am still against trading Hav, but I have to admit that it makes some sense given Noteboom and Evans could be backups this year. We almost would need to move on OL to draft and keep two, otherwise we would be keeping 10 or 11 which might be too many.

To be clear: I'm not advocating for either move - I wouldn't be too happy with either move - just something I could see happening.



For the question at hand - it's interesting. With a healthy Watkins/Woods/Kupp and then Cooks/Woods/Kupp - it was allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll 11 personnel. The only reason that it changed, one could argue, is that with Cooks out and no deep threat, we had to modify the offense.

I do think that WR is a very high priority - Jackson will get injured, and Kupp is 50/50 - I'd definitely draft a WR one the first few rounds.

 

[Allen2McVay]

I've made my position on TE pretty clear, no need to rehash. But I wouldn't be surprised if we trade for Zach Ertz during the draft. I'm not saying it's a great idea, but I just get the vibe that we might, not sure why. Gut feeling.

I have had the exact same thought. Don't believe Ertz will be with Philadelphia in 2021; and could see McVay targeting the guy.

The Rams have some cap space, and could create some more (restructuring Stafford, releasing Kenny Young, moving Hekker).

Same as you ... just a gut feeling, not based on anything and I don't even know if it's a good idea.

Now my question to you is this ...
Do you know your thinking is a little unstable? Because I am aware that my thinking is unstable.

 

[Neil039]

The TE position as well as WR have baffled me the past couple of years. McVay placed a great deal the blame on (he who we not mention by name).

IMO, they need to trade Kupp(Woods is just a better ball player & Van is cheap/young). Higbee has to turn the corner. His routes, blocking, and intensity have to pick up. Hopkins better show some improvement and see them field.

 

[ArkyRamsFan]

Merlin, where did you get the term "F" TE? I'm not familiar with what all it entails.
Thanks,

~ArkyRamsFan~

 

[Riverumbbq]

Merlin, where did you get the term "F" TE? I'm not familiar with what all it entails.
Thanks,

~ArkyRamsFan~

LOL
When reading just the title of this thread, I thought we were going into an entirely different direction.

 

[leoram]

Ertz and Higbee would be a formidable duo and make a difference in the ability to run or pass with equal effectiveness. With that said, I believe Philly wants to trade up this draft so the Rams have less to offer than others who have a first round selection. I am four square against trading Havenstein for anyone. I suppose Philly could package a lower Ram pick to move up but it would be just easier for them to get what they want directly.

As for the question of 11 v 12 personnel, getting a burner to replace Cooks' production only helps if the OLine can block long enough to get a receiver deep and the current collection does not have that ability without considerable risk. So unless they feel they can acquire better interior OL help, I'd prefer they go in the 12 TE direction or even 21/22 with a FB. The running game matters.
In short, I want blockers, blockers, and more QUALITY blockers. The toys won't stretch the field if Stafford is throwing from the turf.

 

[dieterbrock]

Nice write up @Merlin , my thoughts on the TE spot dont need to be rehashed, but we clearly see things in similar vein. If the Rams could swing a trade, I'd much prefer Njoku to Ertz, and I'm thinking he could be available on a draft day trade.
I am also of the belief that a rookie TE can (and does often) be an immediate big impact. Gronk and the felon in NE surely showed that along with many others like Kittles, Howard, Engram, Henry etc.
So maybe Hopkins is going to make a miraculous jump, dunno. If so, I'd still like to see them add a knock the snot out TE like Tremble or even @Riverumbbq 's Ben Mason if he can take the Mundt role, if Hopkins isnt going to elevate, then I'd love to see your guy, or my "domer" pick Ben Skowronek (As an UDFA or 7th rounder)

 

[CGI_Ram]

Great read, @Merlin. There is a lot in there. Two quickies from me;

Waiting in the wings for this season is Jefferson, but also Jackson. Are either of those guys up to snuff when compared to 2018 Brandin Cooks?

It’s a great question and I’d say, maybe close, but no. Which sets up this;

If that is true what does that mean for our TE position?

Yeah... It’s not good enough based on what we know.

 

[CGI_Ram]

LOL
When reading just the title of this thread, I thought we were going into an entirely different direction.

I read;

Fuck the tight ends...

Fuck 12 personnel...

And fuck the wideouts.

I thought @Merlin was pissed.

:alol:

 

[Merlin]

Merlin, where did you get the term "F" TE? I'm not familiar with what all it entails.
Thanks,

~ArkyRamsFan~

F is your receiving TE, the flex type who blocks like a sissy girl but who can be an assassin in the pass game. Nowadays it's where they put the athletic types. Hopkins was drafted to be that basically. As was Everett. Classic example would be a guy like Jimmy Graham.

Higs is our Y TE. That's the more classic role. These guys need to block and line up on the LOS, need to be able to handle ends and OLBs, etc. They can be quite deadly especially with a delayed release because ILBs and safeties often check then move on to their next responsibility or drop and that's why you wonder how a big MFer like that can be running free for the 10th time vs a defense lol. They're the big strong types who also have some athleticism to them.

Just trying to draw that parallel in competition for that last spot which is what determines if we're in 11 or 12. How it's really which receiving option you prefer. To date we've favored 11 sets due to the lack of quality at that spot.

 

[Merlin]

I read;

Fuck the tight ends...

Fuck 12 personnel...

And fuck the wideouts.

I thought @Merlin was pissed.

:alol:

Well we never address it lol so it's a waste of time in a lot of ways. But one of these years...

 

[FrantikRam]

Well we never address it lol so it's a waste of time in a lot of ways. But one of these years...

Ha! I'll see your "we never address the TE position" and push my chips into the center of the table with my "we never, ever, ever, ever address the ILB position"

I too have hope every year

 

[oldnotdead]

I believe McVay loves his 11 personnel because of his penchant to "layer" his receivers, i.e. short, medium, deep. But he can also do that with 12 personnel since TE routes are essentially Y receiver routes. Playing a 12 personnel alignment would also give them an extra blocker in the run game and would better disguise their playaction. He could also layer his routes playing a 21 persnnel alignment. Higbee running the short Y route and the two WRs going mid range and deep and the two RB giving them receivers in both flats. If McVay moves to a power run attack this will also increase the number of passes to the RBs as well. Both Akers and Henderson are good receivers.

People simply don't see Jefferson as a fast receiver. I really don't understand that because some analytics show him running in the low 4.4 and even as low as 4.39 range. That is plenty fast to get deep and being 6'1" he's no smurf target. I also see him moving to the Z receiver position allowing Kupp to work out of the slot where he's a complete mismatch. Jefferson out of the Z will allow McVay to use his speed to get him into the mid-range and deep routes. Woods is excellent working the midrange.

I anticipate seeing more varied looks from McVay now that he has the receivers not only in his WRs but RBs and TEs. If they get their inside run game working with a power attack it's going to open up the outside passing game not only to the WRs but in screens and swing passes to the RBs. An inside run attack forces the LBs to honor those inside gaps delaying their response to an outside pass. It will also open up the mid-range routes.

That to me was always the flaw in McVay's reliance upon the outside zone run. This is exactly what the Niners exploit with their power between the tackles run attack. The Rams tried to run inside without a lead blocker out of a 12 personnel set. But Blythe was piss poor trying to block on the second level. He missed more than he made. The second TE also usually missed his second-level blocks as well. If you want to run a power attack you need a good FB.

McVay has a choice. He can run the ball out of 11 personnel without a FB to spread the defense and run against a light box. To be successful it places the burden on the o-line to have the mobility to get to the second level and execute those blocks. So far they haven't shown they can. That said it could easily be because under Kromer they weren't properly coached to do so. Also, Allen and Shelton both have the mobility to get to the second level and make those blocks. I know Shelton does because I watched him do it at UW. This is why if McVay isn't going to play a FB then Shelton brings more to the table in terms of run blocking than Allen as a center.

As for me, I think not re-signing Blythe is a tell that McVay might be moving to a power run attack. Why? Because in a power run attack the center will many times have multiple gap responsibilities. Case in point. In an outside run in a power attack, the center will be responsible for covering 2 of the backside gaps. On an inside run he many times will have two blocking assignments, a chip then a second-level block. Blythe simply didn't have the quickness and mobility to execute that type of offense.

Regardless I think how Snead drafts will give us a pretty good indication of what to expect, offensively and defensively this year.

 

[FarNorth]

Disclaimer: this is a long and rambling post because I'm bored and waiting on Friday. Read at your own risk.

One thing I have been thinking about for a while now as I watch McVay's offense change year to year with different players is the old predominance of 11 sets in McVay's best offenses. The link between the higher performance overall and its correlation to 11 sets.

Now first off I realize that OL performance has impacted our offense, as has QB performance. But I want to set those two things aside for the purpose of this discussion, assuming anyone thinks this discussion is relative to things as I do. We don't need another Goff or OL thread, we have beat them both to death and I want to move on as it were.

Back to the 11 sets I associate the higher success in the passing game to the multiplicity of matchup problems we presented to defenses during those seasons. Say what you will about Cooks but we really felt his loss in 2019 (concussion and confidence issues even when he was on the field) and 2020 (none of our guys were able to step up and replace him). Waiting in the wings for this season is Jefferson, but also Jackson. Are either of those guys up to snuff when compared to 2018 Brandin Cooks? I'm curious what you guys think but for me I would say no. So it is possible I think that the Rams draft a WR to help address that shortfall, and I would just suggest that if they were to do that having special teams impact would be of very high value which means a guy like Eskridge seems to fit, to my eye at least, because he can do things like returns or even gunner. To me at least he's a perfect fit for what we need and should be a guy they can target with their picks (I see him slated quite a bit in round 3-4 range). I like some others too, like Amari Rodgers, but he's not quite as good a fit on the teams side.

But adding wideout is not the only way to improve this offense. My theory here is that the 11 personnel rates being so high in 2017 and 2018 related moreso to talent comparison between our third wideout vs Everett than it did some preference of McVay's to get all 11 crazy. He basically put the best guys on the field. And so it jives that we suddenly see a return to more 12 sets in 2020 when our third wideout option is much more limited and allowed for Everett to get on the field more as part of a 12 set.

If that is true what does that mean for our TE position? Well to me it means that TE offers significant room for upgrade. But what type of TE are the Rams going to be looking for? The answer is an "F" type TE would be their target. Looking at our depth chart we have one "F" type option, that being Hopkins. Who we have discussed quite a bit around here. And who, no matter what any of us may think about him, failed to even so much as sniff the field last year, even late in the year when things aligned for him to get a look or two. For me this is an important tell.

Now there is a part of me that wonders what Higs can do if the Rams were to add a classic blocking TE and move him to more of a pass game role. But of course scheme plays a big role in all that, where if they did get a good blocking TE then why not use them both on the inline which allows for more deception. And honestly I'm not sure what Higs will be if they were to give him primary looks in the pattern in this offense with 9 throwing him the ball. That may be a discussion in and of itself but for this post I will assume they want an "F" upgrade who can hold his own in comparison to the wideout group.

How many TEs in this draft can do that? Well that's kind of a depressing question. But there's a silver lining IMO as it pertains to the Rams because what you're seeing in college is a tendency to play guys who have that "F" build of big size and good feet/athleticism as wideouts. In a way it's sort of trending like Edge/DE has where multiplicity has driven scouts to view them more on what things they do well vice whether they fit one specific scheme. So this is a long way of saying that there are some very big and mobile WRs in this draft who could "move to TE" for us which tbh is nothing more than playing them inside the hash. Which, btw, is another trend that has affected the defenses and why we see 20 used in the slot in our defense but that's another interesting discussion in and of itself to me at least.

What does this mean for the draft? It means some of the big wideouts who maybe aren't the best route runners might be in play for us. I say some of them because you still have to have some physicality to you in order to be an F type TE. Plus the Rams require their passing game weapons to at the very least be willing to block and get in the way for the ball carrier. Who would be fits for that role? Well to my eye here's a few:

Brevin Jordan. Better version of Everett coming out in terms of his run game threat with the ball. The guy is nasty when he gets that rock in space. He's gonna need a little time but down the road he's the kind of weapon that might be able to challenge for some playing time vs the wideout group. The type of TE that McVay seems to prefer. I don't love his film but that upside is real.

Simi Fehoko. I love Fehoko's film. He's got a real nice fluid nature to his movement, good all around player who also has strength in his game and some suddenness for that big a frame. The guy is a perfect fit as an F in this offense IMO. His future in the NFL is TE IMO. And best of all the guy is slated to go in a range the Rams are all over.

Hunter Long. He's one of those sneaky types that ends up getting open. The guy is productive. He won't smoke an ILB one on one with high percentage but he'll get open over and over somehow because he's a balanced guy that can get overlooked. Not a great athlete but I think he could help us opposite Higbee sort of like Friermuth would. Note that these types of TEs are not what McVay seems to prefer. But since he'd be able to start for us rather quickly I have to think he would be in play assuming they're not secretly high on Hopkins.

What will be interesting is if Friermuth is there at 57. He looks like Herman Munster to me. The guy is not sudden or a speed threat by any stretch. But he trucks DBs like an older brother. So idk. Definitely not an F in this offense but I find myself wondering what he would do in that role for us.

Interesting thoughts! Agree with you that losing Cooks changed the O. Also imo neither Reynolds nor Everett stepped up enough make up for it, and certainly not to McVay's standards. I'm a big fan of the DSJ signing, but there is a risk of injury there. And Hopkins is still an unknown.

The bottom line is we still need some juice on the receiving front. But if that's what McVay thinks too, it still remains to be seen whether it might be a big WR who can get the ball but also block, another fast guy who can open up the field, or another TE. Also whether it's the draft or even still in FA.

 

[CGI_Ram]

The problem I am having is projecting Jefferson. Mentally I sort of assume he contributes like Reynolds. Which is more a role player.

Is he splitting time DJax? Does he have the game day deep speed to play the Cooks role 100%?

If the Rams plan for Jefferson was to take Reynolds snaps in year 2, signing DJax implies there is something more they feel they need they didn’t see in Jefferson?

 

[So Ram]

The problem I am having is projecting Jefferson. Mentally I sort of assume he contributes like Reynolds. Which is more a role player.

Is he splitting time DJax? Does he have the game day deep speed to play the Cooks role 100%.

If the Rams plan for Jefferson was to take Reynolds snaps in year 2, signing DJax implies there is something more they feel they need they didn’t see in Jefferson?

You answered your own question.Jefferson is a possession WR.He is a first /2nd rd talent.He Will help you move the chains like he showed.He was a better special tams player than Reynolds,but he needs to be more of a WR.
If you watch special teams you can see his speed.He lost Reps & at times got frustrated playing behind Reynolds because he knew he was a better player.
Looking back The Rams have rolled with Reynolds,Kupp,Woods & Cooks on there SuperBowl run & beyond. DJ will bring Trust with Mcvay.He has that speed to just separate & the FS can’t cheat up or he’ll get burned.
Now adding Stafford will allow the WR more time to get opened.DTown who that does podcast that talked about Gerald Everett’s separation rate.That is why I think he’ll do well with the Hags.IMO was the best blocking TE on The Rams.
I think The Rams could use a WR like Nico Collins with there 2nd pick or they slide down with 2 picks? Hard to say,but The Rams needed insurance & and an upgrade in speed.
—I’ve watched DJ11 over the years & the fact he is a Ram at his cost is amazing.Mcvay knows him well & just like Copper Kupp was a PR guy.There will be situations you’ll see him back there.
I look at the play calls & know Hopkins will find his way on the field as well.Blanton is the X-factor ? Jet sweeps DJ11 & Hopkins lining up wide & coming in motion. The Niners blasted AD on a play like that the guard tackle destroyed SJD69 & the Tackle on Reeder.That is when the offense gets fired up.
DJ11 is Oldschool & just says I’m going deep.He Will run and get it.Randy Moss was like that,but had the size to go up & get the ball.He knows he screwed Pete Carroll over & hopefully he can do it again in his HomeTown.