Demoff: Move to LA in the works since summer of 2013

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LesBaker

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Les
Tahoo and Les it is just time to let it go guys, not saying you aren't right to be mad...but the debate isn't going to change anything for anyone. To some SK will be the guy who got the Rams back to LA - and at the end of the day it isn't going to matter the mean or methods - he will be a "good" guy to them for it (and that is human nature). For others SK is the guy who turned his back on his community, doing whatever he could, however he could, to make a buck.

The team is moving, it won't change. The facts at this point won't change anything, everyones views of them are pretty locked in.

It sucks for you, it sucked for me, it sucked for lots of others. But you are fighting a war that won't be and can't be won. I recommend moving on - it is what I did, and I am feeling better overall about it (Still hate SK, just not losing sleep over it). still haven't decided if I am just going to have favorite players/coaches or if I will adopt a new team. I said it in my goodbye over it, nota rams fan anymore. Do I still lurk around the board, yeah probably too much. I find it a good source of general NFL knowledge and discussion (the FA discussion the other day was excellent), if I pipe in on a thread I try to keep purely about the nfl in general or other teams or FA, etc.. I avoid getting into the Rams stuff where my feelings may show or come out. I guess I have become one of those other teams visiting fans to this page - so follow the rules of that.

If you are staying rams fans then got to move on or else you will just get resentful and that isn't a good place to be.

They are your feelings though, so please don't take it as if I am saying you are wrong to have them or shouldn't have them.

I'll just set something straight here.

I don't live in STL, I never have, where the Rams play doesn't mean much to me either way though I wanted them to stay for the local fans. I was a Rams fan as a child when they played in LA and wore blue and white. I'll be a Rams fan forever.

But that doesn't mean I can't think Demoff and Kroenke are liars and turds. :)
 

drasconis

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JA
I'm not sure you or anyone else here is in a position to state that his ruin comment was inaccurate. Sorry but spending hundreds of millions of dollars on ZERO equity doesn't spell sound financial move to me. And guys like Stan don't invest to lose money. In fact doing so could very well jeopardize his ability to make the many other deals he makes on a more regular basis.

You are expecting him to spend essentially the same as he spent on one of the largest operating cattle and farming ranches in America and not own anything after doing so. You really think owning only the Rams team in STL even comes close to these kinds of deals? Frankly, if he stayed in STL under the deal that was offered and between his original 40% and then the amount he paid to take controlling interest, he would have paid more for the Rams than the franchise would be worth. Then you add in the amount he has to pay for maintenance of the new stadium, salaries for players, coaches, trainers, staff, etc and by my estimate, the Rams would be the lowest yielding team in the NFL and possibly even a money loser..

Look 503 I get you are frustrated with this conversation still going, but yes his "road to ruin" comment was over the top and can be assumed to be inaccurate. The fact is that the deal being discussed in STL was basically similar to ones many other teams have made in the past. The Vikings/NFL stadium is a similar deal, if they stay it will be a very similar deal for the Chargers in SD same for the Raiders if they stay in OAK. If such deal were "road to ruin" then the NFL has ruined several organizations.

Note that since it got nixed final details of financing and revenue splitting never got worked out - I would not consider the last proposal by the city the end deal...recent stadium history shows the negotiations go on long after there is a agreement in general to build the stadium...this one never got that far.

That said- it is clear that staying in STL would not maximize team revenue or team value, that LA projects out as much more valuable for both. Staying in STL would not have been the best business decision for maximizing both of those. But saying that staying and working out a deal would have been "a road to ruin" really was a throw the city under the bus move. I get it - many negotiators (Especially lawyers) tend to concede nothing, give not the slightest ground or say anything good about the opposition, don't give them a single victory (moral or not) - the sort that would argue the color of the sky with you - I have always thought those sort create bad karma for themselves...but more often than not the they are the top of heap.
 

bluecoconuts

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It still doesn't excuse the fact they lied to their own fans. Stan, KD. Both of them did. Hell the only one who didn't lie was Grubman, who actually said the STL plan would fall short. It's one thing to keep it b/w CVC or RSA or w/e, another entirely to treat your fans that way.

I guess, but I don't see why people get so hung up on that aspect of it, as if it's something that is unique to them. So me a person with the ability to communicate, and I'll show you a person who lies when they feel it's necessary (and in some cases just for shits and giggles)... Stan said one thing when he first took over, and we have no way of knowing how sincere he was or wasn't about that. When people get upset that he was looking at LA years prior, was that not expected? Hell, I don't know jack shit about business, but I know that you always have a plan B to whatever you were doing. When I was applying to grad school, I applied to a bunch of schools at the same time, I didn't apply to one, and only after hearing if they were going to accept/deny me plan my next move. I fully expected that Stan had a plan B, plan C, hell probably all the way to a plan Z, why wouldn't he? He put his offer towards St Louis, and if they said no, then he knew he'd need to act quickly on his plan B, because it could close really fast. St Louis said no, he found his site a few weeks later, and made his move.

The idea that Stan would have moved to LA in 10 years regardless doesn't make sense to me, because at that time, AEG and Spanos were deep in negotiations for the Chargers to relocate into Farmers Field next to Staples Center. While they fell apart, there is no way that Kroenke could guarantee that by 2025 he would be able to relocate to Los Angeles, because there was no way he could guarantee that it would be open. Stan most likely had several different plans in mind including renovating the dome, moving to LA, moving to another city, or building a brand new complex in St Louis. Someone as successful as himself always leave themselves with several options.

So while yes, he said he was going to do whatever he could, we don't know how sincere he was when he said that, and we don't know what went through his mind as the situation changed. What we do know is that the situation changed. In terms of Demoff, he was following orders, from both Stan and the NFL. He told the Task Force, CVC, and both the local and state government that the Rams had no intention of remaining in St Louis after they made their move for LA, and all of those entities decided instead to tell the public that they felt they had a chance and inspire hope. You can blame him, but it's just as equally the fault of those as well, as they lied to the fans far more often than he did.

Why would fans of other teams care in the 1st place? They have no worries except their own team. Life goes on for them. I also don't take fan "threats" seriously. Fans also boo the hell out of Roger Goodell during the draft. Then right he goes "the draft has started" all you hear is wild cheers.

I don't think they would either for the most part, but that was always what people said as evidence that the NFL would stop the Rams from moving. The NFL has to use a delicate touch, they need to give themselves as much freedom and flexibility as they can, while maintaining a high level of fan confidence.. If fans are worried that their teams may up and relocate, then they're less likely to spend their money. The NFL wants to let themselves do whatever they want while maintaining the illusion that they have rules to stop themselves. It's all a well choreographed play for the fans.
 

Athos

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Had to login just for this reason as I read that lying Demoff all but admit he was thankful for a 4 game skid.

That's sick. That's truly sick.

Demoff is the Smithers as Stan is Burns. Maybe worse.
 
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Stl2La

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Had to login just for this reason as I read that lying Demoff all but admit he was thankful for a 4 game skid.

That's sick. That's truly sick.

Demoff is the Smithers as Stan is Burns. Maybe worse.

I'm hoping Demoff's comments were intended as sarcasm because if he was being serious then I don't see how anyone can have faith in this teams front office. If those were honest comments then I just don't know anymore...
 

RamFan503

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Look 503 I get you are frustrated with this conversation still going, but yes his "road to ruin" comment was over the top and can be assumed to be inaccurate. The fact is that the deal being discussed in STL was basically similar to ones many other teams have made in the past. The Vikings/NFL stadium is a similar deal, if they stay it will be a very similar deal for the Chargers in SD same for the Raiders if they stay in OAK. If such deal were "road to ruin" then the NFL has ruined several organizations.
Yes I am frustrated by it. Trying to say that Stan did anything different than practically any other owner is what frustrates me the most. If that was the case, LA would have never been such good leverage for owners wanting stadiums. Hell - the collective fan base of all the other NFL teams ought to thank Stan for finally ending that crap. Cuz though the stadium is built for two teams, being a tenant is no where near the leverage of being the only team in LA.

While I don't doubt that there was some hyperbole in the relocation application, comparing what is being built in Minn to what was proposed in STL is apples to oranges. I believe there is also a pretty drastic difference in how much the owner is paying, on going costs, etc. The stadium has also already been awarded a SB - so obviously it is top tier. A stadium in SD will be as well - I can almost guarantee it. Oakland? Not so sure. But Davis is what he is and in Oakland with the money moving in there, he will have zero problem filling that stadium even if they continue to suck.

I still say that road to ruin is hyperbole for unwise investment. And that I do believe Stan thought of the situation he was being asked to go into in STL. I have handled large property investments and management. I am not saying I can figure out the entire picture and bottom line of something this complex but I tried penciling it out for a ROI. I can see where there is a possibility to actually lose money on that deal. The Rams revenue amounts to approx. $260 million, the cost of running the team takes most of that. They have posted operating incomes of approx. $16 million with a sweetheart lease, no maintenance, and no $700 million note. I'm not going to go through all the accounts again but just player salaries take $155 million right off the top. Coaches - another $15. Then add all the day to day aspects, stadium maintenance, interest on the note, etc... it doesn't paint as rosy of a picture as many want to think.

Peacock used inflated ticket prices never before realized in STL and assumed sell outs plus a pretty sharp increase in TV revenues to make it show a good ROI.

Bottom line is that Stan did what he felt was in his best interest and though it was sadly not in the interest of the STL fan base, I find it very hard to buy that practically any other owner wouldn't have done the same damn thing if they had the wherewithal to do it. It really wasn't a tough business decision from what I can gather. It is sad. But at the same time, you can't really expect NFL owners to lose hundreds of millions of dollars just to appease a local fan base. It just isn't reality and to my knowledge, has never actually happened with any other NFL team. I just find making Stan or KD out to be some sort of super villain never before seen in NFL annals as being purely emotional and illogical.

It absolutely sucks for St Louis that the Rams left. I just get tired of every little non-story about the man being blown up and harped on. Just like the Florio bullshit piece on Stan trying to usurp Worker's Comp laws, most of it is BS that people like to glom onto in ordser to make the owner of our team look like crap. So yeah - I am frustrated by it continuing.
 

ChrisW

Stating the obvious
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Messages
4,670
Did he lie? I don't know. Looks that way. But again, it's a tough spot to be in.

Randy Karraker put out an article today that puts the lies into context.

In short, Demoff provided plenty of ammunition to the plaintiffs in the lawsuit. But, he's great with player contracts.
 

RamFan503

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Had to login just for this reason as I read that lying Demoff all but admit he was thankful for a 4 game skid.

That's sick. That's truly sick.

Demoff is the Smithers as Stan is Burns. Maybe worse.
Where are you getting to that conclusion? I must have missed it.

If your entire participation on this board is going to be just to jump in and sling shit as you "all but admitted" then don't bother. If instead, you want to actually participate as a member and fan of the team, have at it and welcome.
I'm hoping Demoff's comments were intended as sarcasm because if he was being serious then I don't see how anyone can have faith in this teams front office. If those were honest comments then I just don't know anymore...
That is a take from someone looking to twist things any way he can to cast the Rams front office in the worst possible light. That is my opinion.
 

RamFan503

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In short, Demoff provided plenty of ammunition to the plaintiffs in the lawsuit. But, he's great with player contracts.
Got a link to the story Chris? I am curious as to how Karraker connected the dots.
 

Stl2La

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Where are you getting to that conclusion? I must have missed it.

If your entire participation on this board is going to be just to jump in and sling crap as you "all but admitted" then don't bother. If instead, you want to actually participate as a member and fan of the team, have at it and welcome.

That is a take from someone looking to twist things any way he can to cast the Rams front office in the worst possible light. That is my opinion.

This is the quote @Athos and I are referring to:

“All of the sudden, things were coming up pretty quickly. A relocation application was due the first week in January.

Either thankfully, or not thankfully we went on a four game losing streak in the middle of November. So, we went from being in the playoff hunt and having a seed to out of the playoff hunt. That allowed us to have more time to talk about this, to put things together.”

Source: http://fox2now.com/2016/03/14/fans-shocked-to-hear-demoff-happy-about-st-louis-rams-losing-season/
 
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RamFan503

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This is the quote @Athos and I are referring to:

“All of the sudden, things were coming up pretty quickly. A relocation application was due the first week in January.

Either thankfully, or not thankfully we went on a four game losing streak in the middle of November. So, we went from being in the playoff hunt and having a seed to out of the playoff hunt. That allowed us to have more time to talk about this, to put things together.”

Source: http://fox2now.com/2016/03/14/fans-shocked-to-hear-demoff-happy-about-st-louis-rams-losing-season/
So that says he was happy for a four game skid? Sounds like he is just saying it worked out to give him more time on the relocation - not that he would have wanted it to happen that way. I'm guessing that he would have taken playoffs over the other. Aside from more time, it would have given the team more momentum and generated more excitement with the new fan base or even the old fan base should they have failed. "Thankfully or not thankfully" sounds a heck of a lot like "for better or worse" doesn't it?
 

bluecoconuts

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Beware the tone of the article. It is Randy after all, and it reads like his speech at the town hall.

http://www.101sports.com/2016/03/14/rams-professional-liar-kevin-demoff-spoke-panel-ethics-sports/

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not really seeing anything? Other than a supposed quote from Demoff at a 2013 season ticket holders group, and another in 2014 that even Randy says is a stretch... I don't see how that would influence anything in terms of a lawsuit (it's not solid evidence unless there's a recording of it), and the rest seems like generic whining. I could pretty much point to an unethical aspect of most of his suggestions for his "better panel", some of them leading to far worse consequences than lying... Ugh, this is why I hate Randy.
 

jrry32

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I'm coming from a neutral site, but wanted them to stay in STL for biased reasons (it's only like 6 hours away from me).

That said, I can't trust these guys again. Ever. Not Stan, not KD, no one. You can't come on the air and assure loyal STL fans that you expect the Rams to be right in St. Louis. He can't promise STL fans that the LA purchase was "normal business" and promise fans that no land purchase is for a stadium. The owner can't stay in his only address to STL he going to do everything he can to keep the Rams in St. Louis.



Now he goes on and says this has been planned 2013? C'mon that is as slimy as it gets. If they wanted to move to LA, fine. It was their right too based on the dome contract. I'd have more respect for them if they just kept their answers vague like "we'll do what is best for the team" or whatever instead of lying.


KD is such a great guy...but I felt the same thing. Not fair to the STL fans to assure them the Rams are staying and then come out and say you knew they were leaving. Really disappointing.
 

Stl2La

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So that says he was happy for a four game skid? Sounds like he is just saying it worked out to give him more time on the relocation - not that he would have wanted it to happen that way. I'm guessing that he would have taken playoffs over the other. Aside from more time, it would have given the team more momentum and generated more excitement with the new fan base or even the old fan base should they have failed. "Thankfully or not thankfully" sounds a heck of a lot like "for better or worse" doesn't it?

Now that I actually read it and think about it instead of reading the headline and reacting I agree that his comments aren't bad. Definitley taken out of context and the author was clearly looking for clicks/reactions like mine lol
 

RamFan503

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Beware the tone of the article. It is Randy after all, and it reads like his speech at the town hall.

http://www.101sports.com/2016/03/14/rams-professional-liar-kevin-demoff-spoke-panel-ethics-sports/
It'll be interesting to see if that gives any momentum to the lawsuits. I have to admit that it does seem that KD went farther than necessary to deflect from a possible LA relocation. But as you said, Randy is not known for being objective and I have to wonder if those are actually direct quotes or if there was any qualifying language with them. I noticed one fallacy in his recollection of the 2014 event. The property Stan had purchased and was referenced was the parking lot adjacent to the Forum - not the Hollywood Park property. That land would not by itself be appropriate for a stadium. However, I'm sure KD knew that the actual Hollywood Park property was in the works and that would make for a very adequate stadium property. And yeah - I'm making excuses for what KD said. But it is likely what they would do in court if it got that far.

When Boeing moved their operations, they swore that most of it was just going to be administrative and the jobs would remain not only union but in Seattle where they had called home for most of their existence. They did it to avoid disruptions in operations via strikes, work stoppages, and disgruntled employees. Turned out they were lying. I only mention Boeing here because it was one we were constantly hearing about. I could be wrong but I don't think anyone sued Boeing after buying a house or car. Maybe they did but I doubt they won. Seems like a very similar issue to buying tickets, PSLs, or gear only bigger. I didn't blame them for lying or moving their operations. They did what they felt was in the best interest of their company and it probably was.
 

RamFan503

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KD is such a great guy...but I felt the same thing. Not fair to the STL fans to assure them the Rams are staying and then come out and say you knew they were leaving. Really disappointing.
Yeah - I agree. I don't like it either. Doesn't mean I wouldn't like to move on though y'know? I am getting real tired of the gotcha game when it comes to the relocation. I'd like to just think about Rams football and how awful Fisher and Snead are at coaching, drafting, getting FAs, etc... ;)
 

BriansRams

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I'll never trust a thing SK, KD, or the NFL ever says again after this whole process that's for sure. But it doesn't really matter so not going to waste my energy bitching about it. They pulled the wool over our eyes for years and stabbed us local fans in the back. It's done, they're gone, and Stan got his billions. Unfortunately I'll still watch the NFL cause I love the game and I'll still watch the Rams cause I've been a fan my whole adult life. Pretty confident I'll never buy another jersey in my lifetime though. I know cheering for the horns is still supporting the crooked owner and his lackey in a miniscule way but it's about all they will get out of me for now on.

So you're still 100% a Rams fan?
 

BriansRams

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This is so false its not even funny! The Rams intentionally made the proposal impossible for the CVC to except. Not only would the city have to foot the entire $700 million estimated bill that would probably be higher, but the would have had to shut down the dome for 3 years costing the city another $400 million. So basically they told the city that they needed to foot a $1.1 billion bill all for a 10 year lease and then the rams would just leave anyways.

Ok, so I've been reading everyone's comments here and both sides have good points. But let's simplify this entire thing and logically think about it. The Rams organization did NOT want to be in St Louis anymore. They wanted to leave. At knowing this, why does a city (St Louis) and their citizens try to force a business, a company, the Rams ... to exist where they flat out don't want to be? It's almost like being a captive of St Louis.

I mean think about it. At the core of this argument we have a geographical location of people desperately trying to force a sports team to operate and play where they DON'T WANT TO BE! Who does that?
"You will stay here for years to come. You'll play football right here where you don't want to be, and you'll like it. Or we'll sue you."

Really? So that's supposed to be enjoyable for the team and the fans?
Just let it go already. Someone moved away to where they wanted to be. Let it go. :)