Breaking Down the Top 2 QBs - Goff vs. Wentz

[rking4441]

Great read but you speak about Goff and Wentz, in terms of football IQ and intelligence, and I don't see you give Wentz the credit most analyst do for being the brightest football mind in the draft. I watched the NFL channels "Path to the Draft" and when they spoke about XOs they spoke about how Wentz would get an A+++++ and that he was so far advance of ANYONE in the draft. This to me is the biggest reason I would take Wentz. In fact Wentz spoke about how he believed, and I agree, the difference between good and great QBs is the mental side of the game. This was evident when Mooch had them both on the white board and he was feeding Goff hints. With Wentz, he had the whole play down and was able to give his take on what to do if the D was in this or that coverage. Now I am not saying that Goff isn't a bright guy, I heard they both did well on the wonderlic test but to have coaches tell you that Wentz football intelligence is far advance of Goff tells me he IS a better student of the game and that is all I need to hear. On the other hand I won't be mad if they take Goff since In Snisher I Trust!

 

[TheDYVKX]

I don't really want to get into any lengthy discussions or arguments about it, because it is what it is, we pick who we pick, and I think both players are going to be great, but I'll just throw my opinion out there.

I just prefer Goff because he's already "there". I'm kind of tired of waiting on potential and development. At some point, we need to take the guy who's ready to lead us to the playoffs right now and win games right now. If Goff is ready to go, plug him in. By no means do I think I know a lot about football, but I get the vibe that Goff is ready to play right now, and Wentz is still a work in progress. If we get the sure top 15ish QB instead of the potential top 10 QB, so be it. I'm okay with that.

 

[Sleepy1711]

Great read but you speak about Goff and Wentz, in terms of football IQ and intelligence, and I don't see you give Wentz the credit most analyst do for being the brightest football mind in the draft. I watched the NFL channels "Path to the Draft" and when they spoke about XOs they spoke about how Wentz would get an A+++++ and that he was so far advance of ANYONE in the draft. This to me is the biggest reason I would take Wentz. In fact Wentz spoke about how he believed, and I agree, the difference between good and great QBs is the mental side of the game. This was evident when Mooch had them both on the white board and he was feeding Goff hints. With Wentz, he had the whole play down and was able to give his take on what to do if the D was in this or that coverage. Now I am not saying that Goff isn't a bright guy, I heard they both did well on the wonderlic test but to have coaches tell you that Wentz football intelligence is far advance of Goff tells me he IS a better student of the game and that is all I need to hear. On the other hand I won't be mad if they take Goff since In Snisher I Trust!

I get Wentz is pretty smart. But how much smarter is he to Goff? I don't know but It seems that Goff's processing power through progressions is much faster when I watch them play.

Also, didn't Ryan Fitzpatrick score a 48/50 on the wonderlic and graduate from Harvard?

 

[rking4441]

I get Wentz is pretty smart. But how much smarter is he to Goff? I don't know but It seems that Goff's processing power through progressions is much faster when I watch them play.

Also, didn't Ryan Fitzpatrick score a 48/50 on the wonderlic and graduate from Harvard?

Do you think Fitzpatrick has Wentz physical gifts? And with comparing the two I am taking what paid scout and analyst have to say. In fact they spoke about how much more complex the offense in NDST was and said it was far more complex than the Bear Raid offense Goff ran. Wentz called protection and played under center as well. IMHO Not hating on Goff

 

[Killgasm]

If the Rams draft Goff I'll make a banner that says "Goff uck yourself" and take it to the games. Hopefully I can sit in the front row.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Great read....Still, looking at your analysis, I still find it difficult to understand why so many of you think Goff is a better option than Wentz. Physical traits are not close, mental stuff should favor Wentz due to familiarity & similarity with what we do...Run heavy offense. Play-action passes....
No brainer to me...
Carson Wentz

No Brainer? I don't see how you can be so sure about Wentz. Goff is much better in the pocket. He senses pressure better. He effortlessly avoids contact and he keeps his eyes downfield the whole time while making his reads. That stuff cannot be taught.

Wentz on the otherhand looks like he could be Andrew Luck but right now he isn't. There are unanswered questions about him like will he be able to stop running like a fullback and taking hits? Will he develop the ability to control the pocket with slight movements. Will he be able to make all of his reads. Will he be able to stop staring down targets?

I don't think it is close at all. The Rams need a QB now. Wentz looks like he is a few years away from being really good.....and there is no guarantee that he can reach that level.

If the Rams draft Goff I'll make a banner that says "Goff uck yourself" and take it to the games. Hopefully I can sit in the front row.

That is too funny.

 

[Merlin]

I prefer Goff as well for one reason: accuracy. He's just a smoother passer, and that's what we need right now.

BUT

The Rams are going to take Wentz because his upside is INSANE. And IMO it isn't going to be close for them. He's a Big Ben type QB who can stand in there with confidence and benefit a power offense. He can make downfield throws with confidence even when his feet aren't set, due to the power of that gun he's got. He is smooth and athletic in his movement, which is something the Rams offense favors. He has the swag you want for a guy that will be the face of an elite LA franchise. The dude is brilliant and an insanely hard worker. The Rams are not going to be able to look past his upside when all signs point to him living up to it. They are not going to pass on a guy who could be a super elite signal caller, and the value they see in him is what made them move up, NOT the perceived desperation for a QB for now.

Fortunately we will find out soon and I'll be happy either way. But my expectation is it will be Wentz.

 

[Mackeyser]

All I know is that I had a sick feeling about Sam Bradford even before the draft that he wasn't going to be good for us.

The same type of feeling that told me to visit my grandmother and aunt and best friend's mom before they died. I rarely get these feelings. My family is a little spooked by it but they don't question it anymore.

I have that feeling even stronger about Goff and it's tearing me up. It's never been wrong. Ever. I'm almost constantly nauseous with it as we get closer to the draft ( another reason I "know" it's Goff)

Take it for what you will.

I'll just do what I did with Bradford...root for him as loudly as I can and hope upon hope that THIS time...the feeling was somehow wrong.

First time for everything, right?

 

[tahoe]

OK so I've been thinking about this for a while. Trying to come up with who Wentz really reminds me of, I've seen many comparisons. It pains me to say it because I hate him so much but Wentz reminds me of a Godzilla size Russell Wilson, he's extremely cerebral, can extend plays in the pocket and run if necessary but not run first, and just has that will the team to win mentality.

 

[StealYoGurley]

I really like Goff's skillset and I am leaning in his direction right now. One thing that worries me is his offense. You can definitely see pro style throws, success under pressure, elite pocket movement, and accuracy.

One thing that concerns me even more than Wentz's level of competition is the Run Pass Option which was key to Cal's offense. The RPO was also one of the reasons Goff got hit so much, but it also provided Goff with a ton of easy throws.

For people who do not know what Run Pass option plays entail here is a little explanation. Basically the lineman block like it is a running play and depending on what the defense does Goff hands it off to the RB or pulls it out and passes it. If that LB comes up Goff pulls it out and throws to a receiver who fills that space the LB vacated. This was a key passing concept for Goff that he wont perform at all in the NFL.It will be interesting to see how he handles NFL concepts and progressions because what he did at Cal is nothing like the NFL.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

All I know is that I had a sick feeling about Sam Bradford even before the draft that he wasn't going to be good for us.

The same type of feeling that told me to visit my grandmother and aunt and best friend's mom before they died. I rarely get these feelings. My family is a little spooked by it but they don't question it anymore.

I have that feeling even stronger about Goff and it's tearing me up. It's never been wrong. Ever. I'm almost constantly nauseous with it as we get closer to the draft ( another reason I "know" it's Goff)

Take it for what you will.

I'll just do what I did with Bradford...root for him as loudly as I can and hope upon hope that THIS time...the feeling was somehow wrong.

First time for everything, right?

Take a Pepcid

 

[Mackeyser]

Take a Pepcid

That's not how it works, but thanks for the call.

Gary, from Tacoma, you're on the air...

 

[jrry32]

To be honest Jerry, I used to not like you. You seemed like a know it all. Until I realized that you actually know it all. Great analysis man, like always. You point out things I don't even think about and do it with incredible detail. These posts are always appreciated.

Question, have you scouted professionally before? I've taken some scouting classes online and you have the lingo down pat. Your evaluations are better then guys on NFL network or ESPN.

Again, great job man. I still like both guys though

Thanks, Legatron. I try not to be too much of a know-it-all but I know my posts can read that way. I spend a lot of time on things that I have a strong opinion about so my confidence (arrogance) in my opinion can be off-putting to a lot of people. I also have a tendency to not just drop an argument when I should. I'm a lot less matter-of-fact in real life if it helps.

Play-action is also going to be a pretty big part of this offense, and I watched both intensely in that area to see how they simply executed those. In my unbiased opinion, I think Wentz was better on play fakes between the two. Especially in bootleg play action. He also uses either arm very well, and he jabs deliberately towards the runner to draw attention. Sells the action very well with his pads too.

Wentz is more advanced in this department although Goff isn't typically running true play-actions. They're usually run-pass options where he has the choice of handing it off or throwing it.

Great read but you speak about Goff and Wentz, in terms of football IQ and intelligence, and I don't see you give Wentz the credit most analyst do for being the brightest football mind in the draft. I watched the NFL channels "Path to the Draft" and when they spoke about XOs they spoke about how Wentz would get an A+++++ and that he was so far advance of ANYONE in the draft. This to me is the biggest reason I would take Wentz. In fact Wentz spoke about how he believed, and I agree, the difference between good and great QBs is the mental side of the game. This was evident when Mooch had them both on the white board and he was feeding Goff hints. With Wentz, he had the whole play down and was able to give his take on what to do if the D was in this or that coverage. Now I am not saying that Goff isn't a bright guy, I heard they both did well on the wonderlic test but to have coaches tell you that Wentz football intelligence is far advance of Goff tells me he IS a better student of the game and that is all I need to hear. On the other hand I won't be mad if they take Goff since In Snisher I Trust!

I can only evaluate what I see on film. Only thing I'll go off of reports on is work habits and character because you can't really evaluate that purely on film.

 

[WestCoastRam]

You know who else was a skinny kid with pretty good accuracy who's arm needed to strengthen up... Brady.

 

[A55VA6]

Great work @jrry32. Very well done.

I too prefer Goff, but not by alot. The thing that puts him ahead of Wentz for me is his pocket presence and footwork. It's just outstanding.

 

[Mackeyser]

Difference was that Brady had an intensity about him that was talked about.

And he was up front that he thought he was the best QB in that draft and he told Mr. Kraft he wouldn't regret drafting him.

Brady...Manning...Kobe...Rice... these guys are obsessed with winning. Rice two days after one of their Super Bowl wins he was back running routes. NO vacation, no celebration.

Goff has a lot of good traits, but what makes Brady special is what's above his neck. He's relentless and relentlessly thorough.

We all know what relentless looks like. Singletary...Ditka...Aaron Donald...P Manning...Brady... there have been plenty of examples of it. It's pretty rare, but football attracts the relentless types so it's less rare than in real life.

I see that relentlessness with Wentz. Not with Goff. Goff checks all the boxes and he has the capacity to be very good (as did Bradford), but neither was or is...relentless.

doesn't matter. We'll see how it all plays out.

 

[Merlin]

I have that feeling even stronger about Goff and it's tearing me up. It's never been wrong. Ever. I'm almost constantly nauseous with it as we get closer to the draft ( another reason I "know" it's Goff)

I know what you're talkin about man, I get that too sometimes and usually it's right. But when it comes to the Rams under Fish and Snead I have learned to look at things outside of what they leak and say.

Remember Fish re: his DC Walton and how he said he did not plan to make a change? Well, everyone ran with it but guess what? Or Bradford as you mentioned, everyone ran with that to include JT, but guess what? Bottom line is whenever it doesn't pass the common sense check we find out that what they say isn't reliable.

Now with Wentz/Goff there is no bad decision. But where the common sense comes in is what do Fish and Snead value above all else? Upside. They're crazy about guys with high upside. As good as Goff is, he doesn't have the upside that Wentz has. If they take Goff I'm gonna be happy because I love his pure passing ability, but I just don't think the RAMS are gonna take the skinny kid with the metabolism problem with the 1 overall pick.

I think we might know, either way, by the end of this weekend though. Because at some point here they're gonna quit holding back and start that contract process in earnest. Gotta think by next Monday they enter those contract talks with whichever guy they choose.

 

[Mackeyser]

1) the Rams have always been the last to do contracts and everyone signs together. So, I would disagree that they break cover to start signing anyone. Plus, they'll have a lot fewer to do this year, so really takes the pressure off. Not like they have 12 picks this year...

2) They stopped going with upside after GRob and Quick. Tavon was more about how to utilize him and Gurley was more a question about how much does he come back. Both of their upsides were glaringly obvious and achieved. Pretty much every pick other than that has come down to experience (unless there was an injury). Three years plus.

I'd love to believe all this is a long con, but the Eagles didn't trade all the way up to #2 for a "maybe"... They've RAVED about Wentz BEFORE they knew they would be able to trade up.

 

[leoram]

I'll say this again...

When Snisher came to this team, the PRIMARY goal was to instill a nasty toughness lost in the "four pillars" regime (see Finnegan). They decided to wait for production while measuring upside with Tru, Brockers, Ogletree, Robinson, Gurley, and Quick. They tried to build the OLine through FA like Long and Wells. Then they went ALL IN to fix OLine depth in last year's draft. They took talent over need (Gurley, Donald). And repeatedly they've said the focus is on ten year production over day one readiness when it comes to a QB.

So I ask, who's the tougher QB with upside? WATCH how Wentz DOMINATES his time w Gruden while Goff nearly wilts. Which one FITS in play action EXPERIENCE (does anyone really doubt Fisher's Knox/Robinson like approach to the running game)? So...Goff processes better from the gun...how does he respond when he turns his back to the defense in a fake handoff then has to turn around and diagnose what he sees? Gimme an F'ing break!!!! I will support Goff if he becomes a Ram but I will be the MOST PERPLEXED Ram fan if it happens.

 

[Mackeyser]

I'll say this again...

When Snisher came to this team, the PRIMARY goal was to instill a nasty toughness lost in the "four pillars" regime (see Finnegan). They decided to wait for production while measuring upside with Tru, Brockers, Ogletree, Robinson, Gurley, and Quick. They tried to build the OLine through FA like Long and Wells. Then they went ALL IN to fix OLine depth in last year's draft. They took talent over need (Gurley, Donald). And repeatedly they've said the focus is on ten year production over day one readiness when it comes to a QB.

So I ask, who's the tougher QB with upside? WATCH how Wentz DOMINATES his time w Gruden while Goff nearly wilts. Which one FITS in play action EXPERIENCE (does anyone really doubt Fisher's Knox/Robinson like approach to the running game)? So...Goff processes better from the gun...how does he respond when he turns his back to the defense in a fake handoff then has to turn around and diagnose what he sees? Gimme an F'ing break!!!! I will support Goff if he becomes a Ram but I will be the MOST PERPLEXED Ram fan if it happens.

I agree with everything you said except one.

You'll be the second most perplexed Ram fan...

P.S. We're both going to be perplexed. That's happening. I'm preparing for it now.
I'm failing...miserably...