What could have been

[-X-]

In 1999, objectively tell me what would have happened to that team if THIS happened:

1999 was a season in which the new CBA put the brakes on the off-season. 6 weeks to implement Martz's playbook
In preseason, they lost Dre Bly
Then they lost 3 more corners (does it matter who?)
Then early in the season they lost Todd Lyght and Dexter McCleon
Then they lost 3 more corners (does it matter who?)
Then after the first game Marshall Faulk pulled his quad and missed some time
Then during the season they lost both their tight-ends (Robinson and Williams)
Then during the first game they lost Az-Hakim
Then during the season they lost Ricky Proehl
Torry Holt (see: DX) couldn't stay healthy all year, so you only get him for 6 or 7 games.
Now they only have Bruce.
Then during the season they lost Warner for two games (Paul Justin was the backup)
^^ I understand Trent Green was lost ^^
Warner then plays injured for a couple more games behind a line that.....
Lost Pace and Nutten and then Ryan Tucker
The schedule isn't nearly as easy as it was
D'Marco Farr is hurt and playing hurt


THAT team wins the Superbowl? ROFL. Vermeil was already 5-11, and then 4-12 before that 1999 season. If all of the above happened to HIM, on HIS watch, then there's no way he even posts a .500 record. At best, he goes 6-10 and the calls to fire him (see: 1998) are resounding. So, he gets fired. Now, did he have a fair shake? Or should he have yelled a little more, told Martz to shut down his offense, and then stopped crying during pressers? OR, would he have just been royally screwed by circumstances beyond his control?

Be objective.

 

[iBruce]

I'm still in the mindset, like it appears X is, that Spags needs at least 1 more year to prove himself. I still think he's a great defensive mind, and McDaniel's is a great offensive mind. They need an off-season to mesh.

 

[RamsSince1969]

Do we need new trainers? Why is this team so snake bit? I don't know if they are warming up correctly and coming out tight. Make them get to the yard 2 hours earlier and hire massage therapists to loosen them up. I'm just throwing it out there. When you have a player "pull" something running out on the field before the game even starts, not taking a hit, that's rediculous. SJ getting out on the first play of the first game, awkward pull from behind, but, he possibly was not warmed up enough. Could there has to be something to this?
Hey, could it be the pullback on the 2 a days and limited practice time?
That or voodoo! Bad juju for certain. Seriously, this is unreal, all the injuries.

 

[Angry Ram]

Do we need new trainers? Why is this team so snake bit? I don't know if they are warming up correctly and coming out tight. Make them get to the yard 2 hours earlier and hire massage therapists to loosen them up. I'm just throwing it out there. When you have a player "pull" something running out on the field before the game even starts, not taking a hit, that's rediculous. SJ getting out on the first play of the first game, awkward pull from behind, but, he possibly was not warmed up enough. Could there has to be something to this?
Hey, could it be the pullback on the 2 a days and limited practice time?
That or voodoo! Bad juju for certain. Seriously, this is unreal, all the injuries.

IDK if u could blame trainers. Some things are just unavoidable like concussions. Only DX, Norwood have had major hammy problems.

The other guys broke/tore bones/ligaments...it happens. You land in an awkward way and shit happens. That's a funny word tho...awkward. Aawwwkwaaard. Funny to say too. Awwwkward.

 

[Ramatik]

That was very well done X.

Yeah, Dick would have been scrapped more than likely. No way could the GSOT have pulled that off.

I still want Spags around. I'm very disappointed at what's gone down. And it doesn't seem to be bottoming out. Kinda like our economy, it keeps getting worse even though you think it can't!

This year, more than any other. Probably the only time...

I would love to hit that fast forward button and just get out.

 

[DR RAM]

In 1999, objectively tell me what would have happened to that team if THIS happened:

1999 was a season in which the new CBA put the brakes on the off-season. 6 weeks to implement Martz's playbook
In preseason, they lost Dre Bly
Then they lost 3 more corners (does it matter who?)
Then early in the season they lost Todd Lyght and Dexter McCleon
Then they lost 3 more corners (does it matter who?)
Then after the first game Marshall Faulk pulled his quad and missed some time
Then during the season they lost both their tight-ends (Robinson and Williams)
Then during the first game they lost Az-Hakim
Then during the season they lost Ricky Proehl
Torry Holt (see: DX) couldn't stay healthy all year, so you only get him for 6 or 7 games.
Now they only have Bruce.
Then during the season they lost Warner for two games (Paul Justin was the backup)
^^ I understand Trent Green was lost ^^
Warner then plays injured for a couple more games behind a line that.....
Lost Pace and Nutten and then Ryan Tucker
The schedule isn't nearly as easy as it was
D'Marco Farr is hurt and playing hurt


THAT team wins the Superbowl? ROFL. Vermeil was already 5-11, and then 4-12 before that 1999 season. If all of the above happened to HIM, on HIS watch, then there's no way he even posts a .500 record. At best, he goes 6-10 and the calls to fire him (see: 1998) are resounding. So, he gets fired. Now, did he have a fair shake? Or should he have yelled a little more, told Martz to shut down his offense, and then stopped crying during pressers? OR, would he have just been royally screwed by circumstances beyond his control?

Be objective.

All things being equal, and I see your point.....That team had a great offensive line and oodles of speed and play-makers on the offense. This team severely lacks those two things and that is a huge difference.

You could argue that this current defense is better than that one, at least the way they are playing now, even with the injuries.

I can't compare Spags to Vermeil. Vermeil had a much bigger body of work and a knack for turning teams around. This is Spagnuolo's first head coaching job. He has a track record for being a great defensive coordinator. This season has been absolutely tragic and it's not over yet. Everyone's accountable, coaches included.

I don't think Spags has lost this team, and I honestly don't know, at this point, with all the adversity and injuries who could have done better, or worse. It appears to be a lost season, I see very little good coming out of it. I really wish that we would have kept and developed more youth, but at least we've seen sparks from Quinn, Salas, Kendricks, and Pettis.

I trust that our experienced owner will do the right thing for this team at the end of the season.

 

[-X-]

The team is competitive and will score more than 13 pts a game.
[hil](You know that how? With half the defense on IR and only Bruce at WR, you know that how?)[/hil]

They probably win 4-5 games and win SB in 2000
[hil](That's not enough for Vermeil to keep his job. You made my point.)[/hil]

THings to point out.....

DV wouldn't have implemented a complex offense during a lockout year
[hil](he would have had no choice. Martz was hired before a lockout, and nobody saw a lockout coming.)[/hil]

DV wouldn't have allowed Martz to run plays his team couldn't pull off due to talent.
[hil](you know that how? Because that's what you think? Vermeil gave 100% control to Martz.)[/hil]

DV wouldn't have cut Az Hakim after a slow rookie season
[hil](Az Hakim - the slot receiver (see Amendola) - was injured game 1. You missed the point)[/hil]

DV used his draft picks to get play makers on the roster...see Holt
[hil](Charlie Armey made those picks. Vermeil was willing to "go to war" with Tony Banks.)[/hil]

DV team took on his personality
[hil](DV's team revolted against DV. You don't remember that, do you.)[/hil]

DV disciplined his players and ran a tight ship
[hil](So does Spagnuolo.)[/hil]

DV took a chance on a dynamic player who had character issues (Tony Horne)
[hil](DV didn't draft Horne. What does that have to do with the chance this Rams team took on Lloyd?)[/hil]

And so on.......Vermeil wouldn't have allowed this mess to happen 3 years into his regime....he would have built a disciplined winner
[hil](LOL. Vermeil wouldn't have allowed for injuries after going 9-23 in 2 years? That's quite miraculous of him.)[/hil]

Your "facts" and my "facts." See what just happened?

 

[-X-]

All things being equal, and I see your point.....That team had a great offensive line and oodles of speed and play-makers on the offense. This team severely lacks those two things and that is a huge difference.

You could argue that this current defense is better than that one, at least the way they are playing now, even with the injuries.

I can't compare Spags to Vermeil. Vermeil had a much bigger body of work and a knack for turning teams around. This is Spagnuolo's first head coaching job. He has a track record for being a great defensive coordinator. This season has been absolutely tragic and it's not over yet. Everyone's accountable, coaches included.

I don't think Spags has lost this team, and I honestly don't know, at this point, with all the adversity and injuries who could have done better, or worse. It appears to be a lost season, I see very little good coming out of it. I really wish that we would have kept and developed more youth, but at least we've seen sparks from Quinn, Salas, Kendricks, and Pettis.

I trust that our experienced owner will do the right thing for this team at the end of the season.

Sure they had a great line. But what if they lost half of it to injury? Pace, Nutten and Tucker. Now it's a good interior line with some scrub they picked up off the street at LT. Not great by any means.

Regarding the defense being better today than it was in 1999. If that's true, imagine how much worse it would have been without Lyght, McCleon and Bly. I don't agree about Vermeil being able to "turn the team around" in the face of that kind of adversity. I mean, I love DV and all, but he's no miracle worker. He didn't turn anything around in 1997 and 1998, and I remember him being VERY supportive of Tony Banks during those years. He was also VERY supportive of Lawrence Phillips. Vermeil was a players coach in that regard. Maybe to a fault. Were it not for the perfect storm of 1999, he would have gone down in flames and never coached again. There were a great many people saying that he was in over his head and his old-school methods weren't going to get it done. He was saved by circumstances. Spags could be fired because of circumstances.

I'm not comparing Spags to Vermeil either. Only the circumstances. I'm trying to illuminate the situation by imposing the same circumstances on Vermeil. We can all speculate that he would have done what Spagnuolo couldn't, and miraculously "righted the ship", but that's nothing more than speculation. We have no idea how these same circumstances would have affected that team, the players, or the coaches. This was really only a hypothetical situation that was supposed to get people to think about the impact of injuries and a lockout.

A similar comparison would be to look at the strike shortened season of 1987. It was Jim Everett's 2nd year and the 1987 strike shorted the season forced the installation (quickly) of Ernie Zampese's offense. The Rams were having problems scoring and it was directly related to those two things. A shortened off-season and a 2nd year QB. All of these things - compounded - will affect a team negatively. Some more than others. I can't point at another team and say, "Hey - THEY had a shortened off-season too, and they have a new OC!" Because that other team isn't going through an identical set of circumstances.

 

[DR RAM]

All things being equal, and I see your point.....That team had a great offensive line and oodles of speed and play-makers on the offense. This team severely lacks those two things and that is a huge difference.

You could argue that this current defense is better than that one, at least the way they are playing now, even with the injuries.

I can't compare Spags to Vermeil. Vermeil had a much bigger body of work and a knack for turning teams around. This is Spagnuolo's first head coaching job. He has a track record for being a great defensive coordinator. This season has been absolutely tragic and it's not over yet. Everyone's accountable, coaches included.

I don't think Spags has lost this team, and I honestly don't know, at this point, with all the adversity and injuries who could have done better, or worse. It appears to be a lost season, I see very little good coming out of it. I really wish that we would have kept and developed more youth, but at least we've seen sparks from Quinn, Salas, Kendricks, and Pettis.

I trust that our experienced owner will do the right thing for this team at the end of the season.

Sure they had a great line. But what if they lost half of it to injury? Pace, Nutten and Tucker. Now it's a good interior line with some scrub they picked up off the street at LT. Not great by any means.

Regarding the defense being better today than it was in 1999. If that's true, imagine how much worse it would have been without Lyght, McCleon and Bly. I don't agree about Vermeil being able to "turn the team around" in the face of that kind of adversity. I mean, I love DV and all, but he's no miracle worker. He didn't turn anything around in 1997 and 1998, and I remember him being VERY supportive of Tony Banks during those years. He was also VERY supportive of Lawrence Phillips. Vermeil was a players coach in that regard. Maybe to a fault. Were it not for the perfect storm of 1999, he would have gone down in flames and never coached again. There were a great many people saying that he was in over his head and his old-school methods weren't going to get it done. He was saved by circumstances. Spags could be fired because of circumstances.

I'm not comparing Spags to Vermeil either. Only the circumstances. I'm trying to illuminate the situation by imposing the same circumstances on Vermeil. We can all speculate that he would have done what Spagnuolo couldn't, and miraculously "righted the ship", but that's nothing more than speculation. We have no idea how these same circumstances would have affected that team, the players, or the coaches. This was really only a hypothetical situation that was supposed to get people to think about the impact of injuries and a lockout.

A similar comparison would be to look at the strike shortened season of 1987. It was Jim Everett's 2nd year and the 1987 strike shorted the season forced the installation (quickly) of Ernie Zampese's offense. The Rams were having problems scoring and it was directly related to those two things. A shortened off-season and a 2nd year QB. All of these things - compounded - will affect a team negatively. Some more than others. I can't point at another team and say, "Hey - THEY had a shortened off-season too, and they have a new OC!" Because that other team isn't going through an identical set of circumstances.

They started off with a lot more which was my point, which kind of helps your point. :hehe: I think.

Fair or not, almost everyone in this organization will be on the hot seat from now until the season is over. I don't blame or recuse Spagnuolo. These comparisons are so hard to make and circumstances change week to week.

This week on offense:

- We started our 4th or 5th player in the slot. A player that just came off a major knee surgery and is battling an achilles injury. I don't know if we started the same group of receivers 2 weeks in a row.

- Our QB is in his 3rd game back from a high ankle sprain, still wearing a brace and shoe 5x bigger than normal. He was helping players line up the whole game. He's gotten pummeled all year.

- We had no viable tight end on the field at any time. Kendricks had no business even playing. When Hoomanawanui doesn't play we are a different team, this year and last. Huge drop off after him.

- Our backup LT, a late season picked up off the street, got hurt, benched?? He wasn't playing well, I can tell you that.

- Our small school rookie left tackle (with what 1 day practice a walk through probably?) was thrust into service very early in the game after being brought up from the PS, and then asked to protect our franchise QB when we had to play from behind in a game. How do you think that is going to go.

- Our backup Center, a mid season FA pickup off the street, messed up on several plays, including 2 early one's.

- Our right tackle has been playing lights out, but he's a backup at best.

- No backup running back, except in an emergency.

- Our OC is still struggling to find out how to score with the pieces we have that keep changing. Jackson, the only constant.

- Players have to be feeling that the season is cursed. How do you get over that?

That's a lot of doo doo, and that is just the circumstances of the last game. Not even mentioning the defense. We knew that we were not a deep team going into the season.

So, give Brady a high ankle sprain, while learning a new offense, take away Gronkowski and Hernandez. Lose Welker for the season and your starting punt returner. Give him equal receivers to work with. Implement a new blocking scheme, then lose both of your starting tackles and be forced to play two lineman picked up mid season from the street and one small school rookie from the practice squad with one day to prepare to play in his first NFL game. Take your running back of choice, but have everyone else injured, except a slow in season PS pick up who is also your kick returner. Not much to work with...

Think New England would have won the game? Would that be the coaches fault? I don't care if Vince Lombardi was coaching.

 

[-X-]

All things being equal, and I see your point.....That team had a great offensive line and oodles of speked and play-makers on the offense. This team severely lacks those two things and that is a huge difference.

You could argue that this current defense is better than that one, at least the way they are playing now, even with the injuries.

I can't compare Spags to Vermeil. Vermeil had a much bigger body of work and a knack for turning teams around. This is Spagnuolo's first head coaching job. He has a track record for being a great defensive coordinator. This season has been absolutely tragic and it's not over yet. Everyone's accountable, coaches included.

I don't think Spags has lost this team, and I honestly don't know, at this point, with all the adversity and injuries who could have done better, or worse. It appears to be a lost season, I see very little good coming out of it. I really wish that we would have kept and developed more youth, but at least we've seen sparks from Quinn, Salas, Kendricks, and Pettis.

I trust that our experienced owner will do the right thing for this team at the end of the season.

Sure they had a great line. But what if they lost half of it to injury? Pace, Nutten and Tucker. Now it's a good interior line with some scrub they picked up off the street at LT. Not great by any means.

Regarding the defense being better today than it was in 1999. If that's true, imagine how much worse it would have been without Lyght, McCleon and Bly. I don't agree about Vermeil being able to "turn the team around" in the face of that kind of adversity. I mean, I love DV and all, but he's no miracle worker. He didn't turn anything around in 1997 and 1998, and I remember him being VERY supportive of Tony Banks during those years. He was also VERY supportive of Lawrence Phillips. Vermeil was a players coach in that regard. Maybe to a fault. Were it not for the perfect storm of 1999, he would have gone down in flames and never coached again. There were a great many people saying that he was in over his head and his old-school methods weren't going to get it done. He was saved by circumstances. Spags could be fired because of circumstances.

I'm not comparing Spags to Vermeil either. Only the circumstances. I'm trying to illuminate the situation by imposing the same circumstances on Vermeil. We can all speculate that he would have done what Spagnuolo couldn't, and miraculously "righted the ship", but that's nothing more than speculation. We have no idea how these same circumstances would have affected that team, the players, or the coaches. This was really only a hypothetical situation that was supposed to get people to think about the impact of injuries and a lockout.

A similar comparison would be to look at the strike shortened season of 1987. It was Jim Everett's 2nd year and the 1987 strike shorted the season forced the installation (quickly) of Ernie Zampese's offense. The Rams were having problems scoring and it was directly related to those two things. A shortened off-season and a 2nd year QB. All of these things - compounded - will affect a team negatively. Some more than others. I can't point at another team and say, "Hey - THEY had a shortened off-season too, and they have a new OC!" Because that other team isn't going through an identical set of circumstances.

They started off with a lot more which was my point, which kind of helps your point. :hehe: I think.

Fair or not, almost everyone in this organization will be on the hot seat from now until the season is over. I don't blame or recuse Spagnuolo. These comparisons are so hard to make and circumstances change week to week.

This week on offense:

- We started our 4th or 5th player in the slot. A player that just came off a major knee surgery and is battling an achilles injury. I don't know if we started the same group of receivers 2 weeks in a row.

- Our QB is in his 3rd game back from a high ankle sprain, still wearing a brace and shoe 5x bigger than normal. He was helping players line up the whole game. He's gotten pummeled all year.

- We had no viable tight end on the field at any time. Kendricks had no business even playing. When Hoomanawanui doesn't play we are a different team, this year and last. Huge drop off after him.

- Our backup LT, a late season picked up off the street, got hurt, benched?? He wasn't playing well, I can tell you that.

- Our small school rookie left tackle (with what 1 day practice a walk through probably?) was thrust into service very early in the game after being brought up from the PS, and then asked to protect our franchise QB when we had to play from behind in a game. How do you think that is going to go.

- Our backup Center, a mid season FA pickup off the street, messed up on several plays, including 2 early one's.

- Our right tackle has been playing lights out, but he's a backup at best.

- No backup running back, except in an emergency.

- Our OC is still struggling to find out how to score with the pieces we have that keep changing. Jackson, the only constant.

- Players have to be feeling that the season is cursed. How do you get over that?

That's a lot of doo doo, and that is just the circumstances of the last game. Not even mentioning the defense. We knew that we were not a deep team going into the season.

So, give Brady a high ankle sprain, while learning a new offense, take away Gronkowski and Hernandez. Lose Welker for the season and your starting punt returner. Give him equal receivers to work with. Implement a new blocking scheme, then lose both of your starting tackles and be forced to play two lineman picked up mid season from the street and one small school rookie from the practice squad with one day to prepare to play in his first NFL game. Take your running back of choice, but have everyone else injured, except a slow in season PS pick up who is also your kick returner. Not much to work with...

Think New England would have won the game? Would that be the coaches fault? I don't care if Vince Lombardi was coaching.

I'm driving to Miami right now, but I am willing to risk life and limb to say that was awesome.

 

[bluecoconuts]

Bruce is a Hall of Fame WR, it's hard to try to compare what he did to our receivers and say that's a coaching issue.

Spags had to hire an OC, Shurmur wasn't fired, he was hired by another team and we had a need. He looked into the future and talked to Sam and thought about it, and went with Josh. Josh McDaniels was the best offensive coordinator on the market.

And I wouldn't say Spags hasn't gotten anything out of Bradford. Sam had a Rookie of the Year season which (at the time I guess) was one of the greatest rookie seasons for a QB in NFL history. Has he regressed? Sure he has, but it's more complex than just "Spags sucks."

 

[-X-]

1. Tony Banks and Bruce (for only 12 games ) avg 19 pts a game....thats how I know DV would have had better production.
[hil](Well that's certainly selective. Did you add in all the other variables too? No, you couldn't have.)[/hil]

2. No....only my point was made. Vermeil didn't do the things Spags did.....so DV was able to compete.
[hil](No... you made my point. The point was, if Vermeil had 4 or 5 wins in his 3rd year (according to you), then he would have been 14-34 in 3 years. You claim he would have won the Superbowl the following year. Based on what? When you answer that, you'll make another one of my points.[/hil]

3. ??? Lockout was seen from a mile away. Spags adjusted poorly.....poor adjustments has been his M.O.
[hil](It was, huh? Well then you saw more than anyone else back in January. More than ANYONE else. Nice going. And LOL on the rest. He adjusted poorly to the lockout? Boy, you'll stop at nothing.)[/hil]


4. Vermeil got more out of Tony Banks than Spags got out of Sam....that alone should get a HC canned
[hil](Reason #6 why Spags should be fired. Tony Banks had more touchdowns? Wow. I assume you've checked your stats and that was all you needed. Did you happen to see the difference in Sam's performances under Shurmur? What's the key component of Sam's decline? Spags? Try again.)[/hil]

5. Exactly...they didn't like him....but they respected him and did not want to see his iron fist. They were disciplined. This is not Pee Wee football.
[hil](They didn't want to see his iron fist? WTF? Then why revolt in the first place if you're so afraid of his iron man appendage? They didn't give a shit about his discipline. They wanted to work less. That's all there was to it. Oh and hey, guess what? Spags wants two-a-day practices. He absolutely hates the new rule. Accordingly, I guess he's not a fan of pee-wee football either.)[/hil]

6. How many weeks/seasons went bye before they realized that talent trumps character concerns when you trying to win football games? Slow to adjust maybe????
And BillyD said he pulled that move anyway....
[hil](How many weeks went by? Uhhh, Lloyd wasn't available until right when they signed him. Denver didn't have him on the block until they started to change QBs. Of course Billy Devaney orchestrated that move. That's his job as a GM. You don't think Spagnuolo endorsed that? And/or McDaniels? I'll never understand the talent/character argument either. Character guys don't have talent?)[/hil]


Look no reason to go back and forth......
[hil](Sure there is. You make claims and I dispute them. I said a few weeks ago that we were never going to see it differently, and we should agree to disagree. You started this whole "Spags needs to go" thing again, so I'm engaging you again. If you don't want me to throw down, then don't throw down.)[/hil]

If Spags is here next year....guess you are right.
[hil](It's not about being right or wrong about his returning. It's about explaining the problems that have plagued this team. Kroenke is going to make that decision, and that's all there is to it.)[/hil]

If Spags is not here.....guess Stan agreed mostly with me.
[hil](Stan doesn't know you, and he's certainly not swayed by public perception. But if you insist on it being about "right or wrong", then Stan already agrees with me. Since Devaney said he's "very supportive" of the organization. Yipee. I win. :huh: )[/hil]

I hope I am wrong.......I hope we win the last 6 games and go 8-8........but I guess we shall see
[hil](Everybody hopes for that. But it's unrealistic. This team is going to struggle the rest of the season to win ANY games. They simply don't have the talent to compete. 5-7 solid guys does not a team make. There are 46 guys on the team on Sundays, and they don't match up anymore. They just don't.)[/hil]

Just remember this little debate we've been having in the 2012 off season -- I will
:hehe:
[hil](Yeah, I probably won't. I don't hold things against you that you were wrong about. Do I? And even if I'm "right", I'm certainly not going to call you out to let you know about it. I'm more about wanting to see Spagnuolo get a fair shake than I am about wanting to prove you wrong about Kroenke's decisions.")[/hil]

 

[Faceplant]

Why does DV get so much credit for the Rams success in 99?? Personally I think Martz was the more important component that year. Unfortunately, after that great season, DV decided to pull the dumbest move of his career and retire. Then we have a coordinator coming off of an amazing season, taking on a HC role that was possibly too big for him (sound familiar?). Hmm, got a lil off track there didn't I.......

 

[-X-]

Why does DV get so much credit for the Rams success in 99??

Because he's the head coach. Same reason Gruden got credit for Tampa Bay's Superbowl (the house that Dungy built). There were A LOT of things that happened at just the right time for that season to culminate into a SB win. Vermeil would have gone down in flames if they didn't get the Faulk trade, and Martz didn't become the OC. Torry Holt in the draft certainly didn't hurt either. It was just the perfect storm. Not saying DV didn't help, but I wouldn't give him 100% of the credit either. If Saunders was the OC, I don't see it. If the Rams took David Boston instead of Holt (there was real talk about that), then it doesn't happen either. If someone outbids the Rams for Faulk, then what? June Henley again? Ehnnnt. It just all worked that year. And then 3 years later, that window slammed shut.

 

[Anonymous]

John St. Clair slammed that window shut. :grr:

 

[ramsince62]

That was very well done X.

Yeah, Dick would have been scrapped more than likely. No way could the GSOT have pulled that off.

I still want Spags around. I'm very disappointed at what's gone down. And it doesn't seem to be bottoming out. Kinda like our economy, it keeps getting worse even though you think it can't!

This year, more than any other. Probably the only time...

I would love to hit that fast forward button and just get out.

Me too. :bummed: