This weeks Goff thread

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Tano

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This season and especially yesterdays game confirms what I think of Goff.

When you give him time or give him plays where he can use his athletic ability to avoid sacks - Goff is one of the best QBs in the league

However, if you give him no time and give him plays where he has to stay in the pocket and get crunched by the pass rush - Goff is one of the worst QBs in the league.

I am hoping McVay learned his lesson from the game yesterday that moving Goff around occasionally will let Goff focus on his strengths to get the ball to the open receiver. In addition, it upsets the opposing teams pass rush by doing that thereby giving Goff more time in the pocket when he does stay in the pocket.

Maybe he will get better at getting the ball out faster on teams with a ferocious pass rush but in the meantime - give Goff the plays to avoid the pass rush.

Moderators - thinking about this - maybe Merge this with the Why I still think Goff is great thread

Thanks
 

Merlin

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No QB consistently looks good without protection at this level. Even guys like Wilson in their years where their OL was more porous struggled.

Teams are taking young athletic QBs now and giving them the green light to run, but that really isn't something you can sustain year to year unless you have strong run blocking (OL still needs to be good quality) and even then you're looking at far greater injury risk. You can count on the fingers of one hand how many run-first QBs have stood the test of time at this level.

And why is that important? Because year in and out if you have a pocket QB and protect him you have the best chance to get consistency at the most important position. Also as exciting as running around making guys miss is, the ball is faster in the air than any athlete can run so IMO a quick trigger man who uses the pocket protection rules is always going to give you better sustain year to year once he figures out how to survive in that element. It is more difficult because the DEs don't have to sweat contain as much, but once the QB gets it down you're in business.

This will remain a truth of the NFL game until they finally go full retard and make this a flag football league. And at that point I'm out personally, as I'm a big fan of defense.
 

RamsInfiniti

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This season and especially yesterdays game confirms what I think of Goff.

When you give him time or give him plays where he can use his athletic ability to avoid sacks - Goff is one of the best QBs in the league

However, if you give him no time and give him plays where he has to stay in the pocket and get crunched by the pass rush - Goff is one of the worst QBs in the league.

I am hoping McVay learned his lesson from the game yesterday that moving Goff around occasionally will let Goff focus on his strengths to get the ball to the open receiver. In addition, it upsets the opposing teams pass rush by doing that thereby giving Goff more time in the pocket when he does stay in the pocket.

Maybe he will get better at getting the ball out faster on teams with a ferocious pass rush but in the meantime - give Goff the plays to avoid the pass rush.

Moderators - thinking about this - maybe Merge this with the Why I still think Goff is great thread

Thanks

So basically, Goff is just like every QB???? Goff is not even remotely close to the worst QB in the league, even on his worst days. He can make throws that only the top QB's can make. He has to get better at taking care of the football when under pressure.

I think many, myself included, forget that Goff just turned 25 and is in his 3rd season - I don't count that hogwash that happened under Fisher.

McVay has to get better at game planning, period. Yesterday's game plan needs to be the blueprint for the 49'ers game in a few weeks.
 

Tano

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I'm not saying turning him into a running QB - just a QB that has designed plays like yesterday that allows Goff to roll out and find the open receiver. He rarely got hit yesterday on those designed plays.

As to the worst statement, that was a play on the Dicken's novel.

And it was based primarily on the "Worst of Goff" rather than the worst QB

And I completely agree with you about Lamar Jackson - one bad hit and there goes his maneuverability. He is a very poor pocket passer imho.

The only time he completes passes is when he has over 4 seconds in the pocket and has wide open receivers.

Edit - Oops - I did say one of the worst QB's didn't I. I probably exaggerated a little there. But some of his passes - dang they were bad choices to make.

I am hoping he learns from them.

Yesterday was definitely a day to be hopeful. And as the above poster says - McVay needs to use this playbook for future games. Except for his 3rd and long WR screens in the red zone - get rid of those plays.
 

FrantikRam

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No QB consistently looks good without protection at this level. Even guys like Wilson in their years where their OL was more porous struggled.

Teams are taking young athletic QBs now and giving them the green light to run, but that really isn't something you can sustain year to year unless you have strong run blocking (OL still needs to be good quality) and even then you're looking at far greater injury risk. You can count on the fingers of one hand how many run-first QBs have stood the test of time at this level.

And why is that important? Because year in and out if you have a pocket QB and protect him you have the best chance to get consistency at the most important position. Also as exciting as running around making guys miss is, the ball is faster in the air than any athlete can run so IMO a quick trigger man who uses the pocket protection rules is always going to give you better sustain year to year once he figures out how to survive in that element. It is more difficult because the DEs don't have to sweat contain as much, but once the QB gets it down you're in business.

This will remain a truth of the NFL game until they finally go full retard and make this a flag football league. And at that point I'm out personally, as I'm a big fan of defense.


Can you please show me where Wilson struggled?

He's had a bad OL for almost his entire career and is on pace to be one of the best QBs in NFL history, much as it pains me to say. Wilson has never had a year as bad as Goff is having, but has had comparable OL play. On the flip side he's never enjoyed WRs like we have or an offensive mind like McVay either.
 

FrantikRam

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We didn't literally let Saffold go because of Goff's contract (looks like it was for Fowler), but that type of situation is what we can expect going forward with paying Goff.

If he can't compensate for it, we shouldn't have paid him. I'm hopeful after hearing what Whitworth said about all QBs going through this - hopeful that Goff can improve next season.
 

RamsInfiniti

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Can you please show me where Wilson struggled?

He's had a bad OL for almost his entire career and is on pace to be one of the best QBs in NFL history, much as it pains me to say. Wilson has never had a year as bad as Goff is having, but has had comparable OL play. On the flip side he's never enjoyed WRs like we have or an offensive mind like McVay either.

I've never watched a game where I saw Wilson and thought he was a dominant passer. So much of his damage is done on plays that he extends and waits for coverage to break down.
 

FrantikRam

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I've never watched a game where I saw Wilson and thought he was a dominant passer. So much of his damage is done on plays that he extends and waits for coverage to break down.


Doesn't really matter. He's torched us three games in a row now, the last one 17/23 260 yards and 4 TDs, while making some unbelievable throws. And despite their roster turnover, he's the first QB to have a winning season in each of his first 8 seasons.
 

Tano

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Doesn't really matter. He's torched us three games in a row now, the last one 17/23 260 yards and 4 TDs, while making some unbelievable throws. And despite their roster turnover, he's the first QB to have a winning season in each of his first 8 seasons.
I put that more on Carroll than Wilson - but Wilson has definitely helped
 

kurtfaulk

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Doesn't really matter. He's torched us three games in a row now, the last one 17/23 260 yards and 4 TDs, while making some unbelievable throws.

ahhh, isn't that sweet. too bad they lost both games last year and needed the rams kicker to miss a fairly easy fg to win this year. does that make goff the better qb?

.
 

Dxmissile

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I've never watched a game where I saw Wilson and thought he was a dominant passer. So much of his damage is done on plays that he extends and waits for coverage to break down.
Wilson is legit as a passer and as a runner. I know it’s taboo to say that but it’s facts his record and his numbers back it up and the eye test. He’s more of a scrambler than a runner he is always consistently looking to throw the ball first that’s why he’s able to see guys break free cause he keeps his eyes downfield
 

Tano

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I've never watched a game where I saw Wilson and thought he was a dominant passer. So much of his damage is done on plays that he extends and waits for coverage to break down.
I was hoping Donald would rip his arm off on that one play where he threw Wilson completely around.

Is that harsh?
 

Ramlock

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Can you please show me where Wilson struggled?

He's had a bad OL for almost his entire career and is on pace to be one of the best QBs in NFL history, much as it pains me to say. Wilson has never had a year as bad as Goff is having, but has had comparable OL play. On the flip side he's never enjoyed WRs like we have or an offensive mind like McVay either.

Wilson is a fine QB.

He averages being sacked over 40 times a season and that is bothersome. And some of that is on him and not his Oline.

However, in real estate terms, Wilson is not the comparable for Goff.

Wilson came out of Wisconsin’s Pro offense not a Spread.

Wilson’s attempts # are decreasing as his career has gone on, where Goff’s are increasing where he would have back to back 500+ attempt seasons. When Wilson has had 500+ attempts, their record was 10-5-1 and 9-7.

Goff hasn’t sniffed 40 sacks taken; Wilson has 6 seasons of better than 40 and working on a 7th. Would not surprise if it shortens Wilson’s career.

Wilson is a fine QB.

I expect Goff will get there...he’s on his way, IMO.
 

Ramlock

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We didn't literally let Saffold go because of Goff's contract (looks like it was for Fowler), but that type of situation is what we can expect going forward with paying ...........

Insert Young QB negotiating 2nd contract...the contract doesn’t matter
 

oldnotdead

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The solution at this point is put a good o-line in front of Goff. He needs time to learn how to dissect defenses before the snap. To know what he sees, and what to expect. He's learning, how to be the elite QB he's capable of being. McVay is totally correct when he values accuracy above all else.

Arm strength is something that can be developed. I saw it in Brees as a Charger. His arm strength was "good enough" but it definitely needed to be improved upon. In his third year you began to see the improvement in his arm strength. Accuracy however is a different animal. You can improve accuracy only to a point. You need only look at Michael Vick and to a certain extent to Cam Newton. They both had cannon arms but inconsistent accuracy and both struggled with touch. Vick never really mastered touch, and to this day Cam struggles with his touch and accuracy.

Goff can be extremely accurate if his mechanics are good. He's really dropped some dimes at times. That is true talent. I've always liked Philip Rivers and he's put up a HOF type career. I've watched him since he was a rookie. I can say with all certainty that Goff is better at this stage of his career than Rivers was. Goff is a work in progress, but right now he's better than most. He's easily in the top 10 of QB's starting in the NFL. That is nothing to take for granted. That is good enough to win a Super Bowl with.

All QB's have times where they struggle. It's how they handle those moments. Last Sunday was a statement game for Goff. He came off two difficult games to hand in a gem. This game showed what he's capable of. All I can say is that those who want another QB because they think Goff is subpar don't know the NFL. They don't know or really understand the game.

They want the glamour an glitz of Mahomes or Jackson. But ignore you could more likely get a Murray or Baker. They ignore that history of the NFL has shown that running QB's have a shorter career. They ignore that the GOAT Brady is a pocket passer, as is Rodgers, as is Brees, as was Peyton Manning, etc etc.

I for one will simply enjoy watching Goff grow into his position and develop into one of the true elite talents at his position.
 

Merlin

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Can you please show me where Wilson struggled?

He's had a bad OL for almost his entire career and is on pace to be one of the best QBs in NFL history, much as it pains me to say. Wilson has never had a year as bad as Goff is having, but has had comparable OL play. On the flip side he's never enjoyed WRs like we have or an offensive mind like McVay either.
Oh good grief. I don't want to get all into Wilson's career, as like most of us here I respect the dude and what he's done and rightly so. But I was referencing '16 when he had his worst year, a nearly 20 point drop in passer rating from his usual high efficiency.

And thanks to Carroll and his consistent dedication to the run game Russell has always had a balanced attack which is really important as well. But once again Wilson is not a pocket QB so the rules are a bit different and he's also an outlier i.e. one of those QBs who will threaten you with their legs but who has also stayed healthy.

Anyway. We paid a pocket QB. Which means we have to build the OL to support him. If anyone doesn't like that talk to Snead and Demoff. You can win all different ways in the NFL, to include with a power run game and scrambling QB (Which the Seahawks have done for years and the Ravens are now doing), but you still need an OL that can run block at least. Say what you want about Carroll but he's always to my mind at least ensured they had that run game.

We have a young HC who is learning that painful lesson this year. But of course that's another direction for conversation lol.
 

WarnerToBruce

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I've never watched a game where I saw Wilson and thought he was a dominant passer. So much of his damage is done on plays that he extends and waits for coverage to break down.

I used to think this. I was never concerned about RW as long as we contained him (ala Fisher's forte).

But lately, he's matured into the best, not just one of the best, but the BEST long passer in the game. His timing is now impeccable. He can float those longer balls perfectly into the best position for his average WRs to get.

Combining how good he is when scrambling, with his accuracy when throwing long (inside or outside pocket), it's a deadly combo. It really pisses me off. :)
 

Zaphod

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I wouldn't say worst, but point taken....Lamar Jackson will soon be Robert Griffin the IV...book it
I wouldn't count on that, and the main reason is that there's such a big difference with their approach.

It's not really run first as it is block first, and it has more to do with maximizing your pre-snap reads with those options, though I do agree in that you're kind of looking for trouble when your offense features plays designed to rush your quarterback as an option on almost every down.

IMO, the wheels likely fall off for Greg Roman's offense in the same way that they did for the 49ers, which is to say that they better continue to prioritize that offensive line.