Research Topic: Post WW2 Revenge

  • To unlock all of features of Rams On Demand please take a brief moment to register. Registering is not only quick and easy, it also allows you access to additional features such as live chat, private messaging, and a host of other apps exclusive to Rams On Demand.

Loyal

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jul 27, 2010
Messages
30,543
Hello all.

I thought to bring you into a research paper topic for one of my final MA classes before earning the MA degree. This is a dark subject for me and the last time I explored this period of German history, I became lost in the inhumanity of the Nazis. But after Hitler and Eva Braun committed suicide in the bunker and all of Germany was vanquished, I was disturbed by how the Allies themselves, acted.

There were reasons why Gramps didn't want to talk about the war.

Extrajudicial executions, mass rape of the vanquished, enforced hunger of the common Germans, seizure of property without recompense and generally the victors covering all of their actions under same idea: The Nazi's started it and deserved what they got.

That sentiment was felt from FDR/Truman, throughout the military from Eisenhower on down to the private. Those feelings intensified when the death camps were uncovered. I've been to the Eisenhower Presidential Library for primary source documents, to track the sentiments of the victors.

As racially centered as the Nazi's were, it was after the war that Europe became more homogeneous. Poland, Czechoslovakia, and a other countries ethnically cleansed themselves of Germans. East Prussia was swept of its residents by the brutal USSR, with transplanted Poles finding farm houses with meals still on the table, months after the war ended. Ethnic German's who's family may have lived in the Sudetenland for a 100 years, were given ten minutes to pack bags to leave their homes forever, and then were robbed by the soldiers forcing them out. They were sent on trains to a destroyed Berlin. Berlin was utterly devastated at the end, and the smell of corpses was all pervasive, emanating from the rubble. These refugees arrived in mostly the American zone because all feared being caught on the USSR side, but the farm land was held by the Soviets. The Allied Psychological Warfare Division told the Germans how they should react when Allied troops marched into their towns. They told businessmen and other white collar workers that they needed to plant crops while they could, because no food/help was coming for them. Consequently, the real amount of calories each German in Berlin and other cities was 800 calories a day, about what the inmates of Buchenwald received from the Nazis during the war.

I will explain these details in the paper, but I am more interested in other questions this time around. Western democracies, especially the USA, exist by the rule of law. We pride ourselves on the benefits of this system and call it the best on Earth. Yet, FDR in 1944 decided with the help of Henry Morganthau at Treasury, to reduce a technological, educated German populace to serfdom, working in the fields. The idea was that there was something fundamentally wrong with German culture/civilization that led the world into two World Wars. Yet, Germany was too important of a nation to reduce to nothing. It would cripple all of Europe to do this, yet the USSR and France feared any resurgence of a unified Germany. Truman, Eisenhower, MG Lucius Clay decided that for the good of Europe, Germany must be restored and yet forcibly re-educated/de-nazified. The West used dictatorial powers to make West Germany become a democracy.

The other major reason, which may have been the most powerful reason, is the fear of communism. If the USA did not come up with the Marshall Plan to restore Germany/Europe, then in their desperation, Europeans would have been susceptible to the siren song of communism. This applied to Western Germany in a big way, and so the Germans needed to become our allies after the Berlin airlift and the Marshall plan, and it seems to have worked.

Was it moral to use undemocratic methods to coerce a people to become a democracy? I learned from another historian tonight when she discussed her book about CIA assassinations regarding the questions of morality, or were the actions necessary? Anyway, if you've gotten this far, thanks for reading.
 
Last edited:

Elmgrovegnome

Legend
Joined
Jan 23, 2013
Messages
22,770
I don't have a problem with how Germans were treated after the war. I also understand the reasoning for it. Germany was the cause of so much death and they caused a war twice in 20 years. They weren't coming to anyone's aid. Their ruthless expansion in an attempt to confiscate resources was a horrible act when you consider how ruthless they were to their enemies. Maybe there were some Germans that disagreed with Hitler and co. , but when you see the speeches and parades, it looks like most of them were there to pick up every delicious bit of perceived German superiority.
 

Memento

Your (Somewhat) Friendly Neighborhood Authoress.
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
18,325
Name
Jemma
Basically what I get from this? Almost everyone was a colossal piece of shit to each other. Yes, I saw a documentary about some radical Jewish people who were plotting to murder millions of Germans in a plot that was thankfully foiled. And yes, there were many atrocities committed by both Axis and Allies.

But this history reminds me of this: in order to stop repeating it, we have to simply not be pieces of shit to each other. I know that it's extremely difficult to ask entire countries to do that...but we as ourselves can start here and now. Just one simple act of kindness can help a person more than you think is possible.

So, yeah, that's what I get out of it.
 

Memento

Your (Somewhat) Friendly Neighborhood Authoress.
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
18,325
Name
Jemma
I don't have a problem with how Germans were treated after the war. I also understand the reasoning for it. Germany was the cause of so much death and they caused a war twice in 20 years. They weren't coming to anyone's aid. Their ruthless expansion in an attempt to confiscate resources was a horrible act when you consider how ruthless they were to their enemies. Maybe there were some Germans that disagreed with Hitler and co. , but when you see the speeches and parades, it looks like most of them were there to pick up every delicious bit of perceived German superiority.

Operation Valkyrie and Oskar Schindler confirm that, and there's other confirmations in history where Germans risked their lives to save the vulnerable who were scheduled for death (Jewish people mostly, although I'm certain there were others). Even some of the concentration camp personnel tried their hardest to spare children, according to Elie Wiesel's account.

So, yeah, I have a problem with painting the Germans with the same brush as Hitler and his Nazi government, and I do have a problem with how the Allies (mostly Soviets) committed various atrocities against innocent German people.

In addition, the way Hitler came to power was because of how much the opposing forces destroyed the German economy after the first World War. One million German marks were the equivalent of less than five U.S. dollars. Germans were starving, cold, and suffering for what a long-since-deposed government did. They were literally burning their worthless money to stay warm. They were looking for some kind of scapegoat, and Hitler gave them one and appealed to the masses.

This is not to defend the Nazis, whom were indefensible; it's merely to show a reason why so many Germans flocked to Hitler and the promise of a better life. And what happened almost immediately after the war? Germany and Italy apologized for the atrocities committed against humanity.

Japan, you can probably blame because they committed so many atrocities, and their governments throughout the years have never apologized - not a single fucking time. They brought their scientists and "doctors" (and I use the term "doctors" in the very loosest sense of the word, as they completely betrayed their Hippocratic vow) who committed so many horrible medical experiments and were allowed to slink away without so much as a slap on the wrist. They went back to their old jobs with the blood of thousands - if not millions - on their hands.

And yes, the bombs needed to be dropped in order to save American lives because it would've cost so, so many lives to take Tokyo. It took the Emperor (who was mainly ceremonial at the point of Japan's conquest of the Pacific; Hideki Tojo and others were the real driving force) pleading for Japan to surrender to get the people to stand down.

Sorry for the long, rambling post.
 

ozarkram

Duke of Earl
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jun 21, 2014
Messages
1,448
My Grandfather was regular army when ww2 broke out. Those guys endured four or more years of pure hell and so many never returned. I don't believe we can judge them or even have the right to judge them. Did bad things happen yes I am sure they did. By the end of the war I am sure death and dying was just another day and anger well plenty of anger. They were men and women from all walks of life who stepped up and answered the call. No I don't believe we now have the right to judge them.
 

Merlin

Damn the torpedoes
Rams On Demand Sponsor
ROD Credit | 2023 TOP Member
Joined
May 8, 2014
Messages
39,669
Germany was a democracy before Hitler. He came to power through election.
 

Loyal

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jul 27, 2010
Messages
30,543
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8
Actually, I have studied this for years. FDR and Henry Morganthau had this very plan to reduce the Germans to serfdom and it's not disputed. I have examined original sources which I can send to you if you like. It was Secretary of State Henry Stimson and Military Governor General Clay who saw the Germans struggling and trying under pitiful conditions and who worked within JCS 1067/Morganthau Plan to aid the common Germans
I am not a presentist, meaning that I don't judge from today's perspective or using today's situational ethics. I have original source documents gathered from the Eisenhower Presidential Library which represents the both views from within the FDR/Truman administration. Let me see if I can post them..
 

Loyal

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jul 27, 2010
Messages
30,543
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
Dang it. I have no idea how to post PDF's to a post without manually re-typing. I wanted to post a memo from the office of the Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force: Psychological Warfare Division (dated 24 April 1945).
"SUBJECT: Machine Gunning of German farmers by Allied planes.
TO: Brigadier Gen. R.A. McClure
1. From several intelligence sources, including most recently a report from our people in Switzerland, German farmers who have complied with the Supreme Commode's [General Eisenhower] instructions to carry on spring planting, are bitterly complaining of being machine gunned by planes while planting.

2. I fully appreciate the difficulty, if not the impossibility of controlling the enthusiasm of Allied airmen on strafing expeditions over Germany, particularly in view of their current justified rage against everything German. However, it occurred to me that you might have he opportunity, with the Air Chief Marshall or top Allied air character, to inform them of the seriousness of this situation, - which not only seriously undermines the moral authority of the Supreme Commode's instructions to German farmers, but also seriously interferes with the most critical German food situation
...
C.D. Jackson"

This is at one level when it was believed that there would be a unified military government at war's end. The USSR would take most of the farm land. This memo is just many that shows the antipathy for common Germans, and there is so much more.

btw...I am not against the conquering of Germany. I personally think our boys were hero's, but that doesn't mean they were perfect.
@flv Critical analysis is a good thing.
 

Loyal

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jul 27, 2010
Messages
30,543
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
Memo from the President for the Secretary of State, 9/15/1944. Box 35. Post-Surrender Program for Germany. Smith, Walter Bedell: Collection of World War II Documents. Dwight D. Eisenhower Presidential Library

This is even better Franklin D. Roosevelt sent this memo to Secretary of State Henry Simson:

"This programme for eliminating the war-making industries in the Ruhr and in the Saar is looking forward to converting Germany into a country primarily agricultural and pastoral in it's character.

The Prime Minister [Churchill] and the President were in agreement upon this programme.

I think I have also worked out the locations of the occupying forces.

I am going to leave here Saturday evening and go to Hyde Park where I will be joined Monday morning by the Prime Minister and his wife for a couple of days."
----------------------------------------------
The Ruhr and the Saar were the heart of German industry before WW2.

@flv
 

Loyal

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jul 27, 2010
Messages
30,543
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12
I've never done that. Which icon do I select?
 

Loyal

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jul 27, 2010
Messages
30,543
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
Come back to this thread later, because I have work to do that can't wait. cheers!
 

Elmgrovegnome

Legend
Joined
Jan 23, 2013
Messages
22,770
Operation Valkyrie and Oskar Schindler confirm that, and there's other confirmations in history where Germans risked their lives to save the vulnerable who were scheduled for death (Jewish people mostly, although I'm certain there were others). Even some of the concentration camp personnel tried their hardest to spare children, according to Elie Wiesel's account.

So, yeah, I have a problem with painting the Germans with the same brush as Hitler and his Nazi government, and I do have a problem with how the Allies (mostly Soviets) committed various atrocities against innocent German people.

In addition, the way Hitler came to power was because of how much the opposing forces destroyed the German economy after the first World War. One million German marks were the equivalent of less than five U.S. dollars. Germans were starving, cold, and suffering for what a long-since-deposed government did. They were literally burning their worthless money to stay warm. They were looking for some kind of scapegoat, and Hitler gave them one and appealed to the masses.

This is not to defend the Nazis, whom were indefensible; it's merely to show a reason why so many Germans flocked to Hitler and the promise of a better life. And what happened almost immediately after the war? Germany and Italy apologized for the atrocities committed against humanity.

Japan, you can probably blame because they committed so many atrocities, and their governments throughout the years have never apologized - not a single fucking time. They brought their scientists and "doctors" (and I use the term "doctors" in the very loosest sense of the word, as they completely betrayed their Hippocratic vow) who committed so many horrible medical experiments and were allowed to slink away without so much as a slap on the wrist. They went back to their old jobs with the blood of thousands - if not millions - on their hands.

And yes, the bombs needed to be dropped in order to save American lives because it would've cost so, so many lives to take Tokyo. It took the Emperor (who was mainly ceremonial at the point of Japan's conquest of the Pacific; Hideki Tojo and others were the real driving force) pleading for Japan to surrender to get the people to stand down.

Sorry for the long, rambling post.


There is no way to sift through them all. Sure some tried to help but the vast majority of Germans were pro Hitler. They caused so many deaths with there camps, and also with their war. Poland, Great Britain, France, and many more suffered because of Hitler lead Germany. If they asked which German citizens helped fight against it they would all say they did.
 

Loyal

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jul 27, 2010
Messages
30,543
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #19
Those farmers were told By Eisenhower to grow food, as the Nazi regime was collapsing. I have 50(or so) original documents. Look up the Morganthau Plan and compare it to JCS 1067, which was adopted in the Post War period by Truman. I showed a couple of memos which accurately showed the state of mind of the Allies toward Germany before the end, and it continued. Read JCS 1067.

It was all about punishment and making the Germans suffer.
 

badnews

Use Your Illusion
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
5,364
Name
Dave
Germany was solely responsible for 2 world wars in 25 years.

That there is a soverign modern nation still called Germany today is a tribute to just how far civilization has come in terms of post-war consequences.

Absolutely there is a lot of finger pointing that can be done at the allies and war time atrocities are a constant fact of war. But there is a huge difference between atrocities and a policy of genocide.

Jmho

I get what you are saying but I don't feel there is much to criticize imo.