PFF: Top 25 CBs of 2016 - Prepare to be surprised

[jrry32]

About a month ago (before our defense fell apart), PFF came out with their top 25 CBs of 2016 (to that point). There was one Rams CB on it. Prepare to be surprised:
https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-top-25-nfl-cornerbacks-this-season/

21. Lamarcus Joyner, Los Angeles Rams, 82.1
The first CB to play primarily in the slot to make the list, Lamarcus Joyner has been excellent for the Rams when on the field this season. After his Hard Knocks drama, Joyner’s season has seen him allow just one touchdown catch, and he has been beaten for only 8.5 yards per reception. Joyner doesn’t have an interception on his stat sheet, but he has broken up four passes and hasn’t been beaten for a catch longer than 29 yards all year.

Personally, I don't put a ton of stock in PFF's grades. I think Gregg Williams has used Joyner perfectly this year. Joyner plays a hybrid slot CB/in the box SS type role in our scheme. It keeps Joyner from having his back to the QB often, which is his big weakness imo.

It's nice to see positive press for Joyner. My opinion still is that his best position in the NFL is at FS. I'd love to get Captain Munnerlyn this off-season at SLCB to replace Joyner, move Joyner to FS, and move Alexander to SS to replace T.J. Then, we can use the money we don't have to use extending T.J. on the offense. But that's just my opinion.

My preference for this setup is because Joyner played FS in college and looked great there. He showed off range as a center-fielder and hit very hard. We all know he can tackle. We all know he'll hit. We all know he can come downhill and stop the run. The biggest advantage of him at FS is it keeps him from having his back to the QB often. Instead, he's usually playing face-to-face with the QB and reading the QB and pass routes in front of him. I think that makes great use of his stellar instincts and good range.

 

[ramfan46]

About a month ago (before our defense fell apart), PFF came out with their top 25 CBs of 2016 (to that point). There was one Rams CB on it. Prepare to be surprised:
https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-top-25-nfl-cornerbacks-this-season/


Personally, I don't put a ton of stock in PFF's grades. I think Gregg Williams has used Joyner perfectly this year. Joyner plays a hybrid slot CB/in the box SS type role in our scheme. It keeps Joyner from having his back to the QB often, which is his big weakness imo.

It's nice to see positive press for Joyner. My opinion still is that his best position in the NFL is at FS. I'd love to get Captain Munnerlyn this off-season at SLCB to replace Joyner, move Joyner to FS, and move Alexander to SS to replace T.J. Then, we can use the money we don't have to use extending T.J. on the offense. But that's just my opinion.

My preference for this setup is because Joyner played FS in college and looked great there. He showed off range as a center-fielder and hit very hard. We all know he can tackle. We all know he'll hit. We all know he can come downhill and stop the run. The biggest advantage of him at FS is it keeps him from having his back to the QB often. Instead, he's usually playing face-to-face with the QB and reading the QB and pass routes in front of him. I think that makes great use of his stellar instincts and good range.

I appreciate reading your analysis on each and every player. Joyner just hasn't impressed me with his overall football IQ at the pro level. You nailed it, he is not good at all with his back to the QB running with a WR down field. He just doesn't have that kind of awareness it appears. He hits like a gawd damn freight train for his size, but he doesn't have an INT in his pro career yet! He's dropped 2 sure INT's off of memory. I want more ball skills for the FS personally, but I totally see that you are trying to put together a realistic scenario that overall helps the team.
I'd let TJ walk, cut Saffold and go HARD at Eric Berry.

Props to Joyner for playing through the broken toe and being a contributor. He's outplayed Gaines by a mile this year, he just can't hang outside unfortunately.

 

[jrry32]

I appreciate reading your analysis on each and every player. Joyner just hasn't impressed me with his overall football IQ at the pro level. You nailed it, he is not good at all with his back to the QB running with a WR down field. He just doesn't have that kind of awareness it appears. He hits like a gawd damn freight train for his size, but he doesn't have an INT in his pro career yet! He's dropped 2 sure INT's off of memory. I want more ball skills for the FS personally, but I totally see that you are trying to put together a realistic scenario that overall helps the team.
I'd let TJ walk, cut Saffold and go HARD at Eric Berry.

Props to Joyner for playing through the broken toe and being a contributor. He's outplayed Gaines by a mile this year, he just can't hang outside unfortunately.

I don't think Joyner's football IQ is an issue. We ask a lot of him. He's an intelligent player. The issue for me is that he just doesn't have the same level of quickness that great slot WRs have, so he gets grabby. And he's not good with his back to the ball, so he can't play outside. I think he makes the most sense at FS. Yes, he's not great at catching the football, but that changes a bit at FS. FS picks are generally inaccurately thrown passes that hit the FS in the chest or deep balls. These are easier passes to intercept than the balls you get as a slot CB. Those passes are typically coming in hot and don't give you much time to react. Joyner did pick off 4 passes at FSU in 2011 when he was playing FS.

 

[TheDYVKX]

I think he's a great slot corner because it lets us run nickel heavily and gives us a coverage advantage when they aren't. You won't find many 5'8" slot CBs able to basically play LB and play the run like he can, so we're not at too much of a mismatch in the run game with his ability to sift through traffic and make the play. Then he can cover pretty well on top of it. Sure sometimes he can get grabby, but he does better than a lot of CBs because of his recognition. Also allows him to be near the LOS often and blitz, something he excels at. Some looks he actually goes deep in off coverage and swaps with Alexander. When you have a player this versatile, it's nice to let him play at a position like that so he can do everything.

I do think he's better when things are in front of him though and he'd be an ideal FS who can come down and play the slot a la Tyrann Mathieu. But it'd take a damn good replacement for me to consider moving him.

 

[LumberTubs]

As a third "linebacker" he's been excellent. He's made some great plays in the backfield.

 

[Picked4td]

Was a fan of him as a prospect, and a fan of the pick, under the assumption he was going to play FS. Hes impressed me as slot CB (imo one of the few constantly good players this season), but I still think his best potential is at FS and Id be really surprised if he doesnt get moved to FS with a new staff. Either way though, I think he's a guy that needs to be locked up at some point and has a bright future

 

[BonifayRam]

I consider LJ a very good player who can play any positions. LJ has been lining up much of the time in the SSLB'er positions or area. Yes LJ has been our starter in the Nickle & has been pressed into outside corner position when injuries have depleted our numbers. I agree with most of @jrry32 post stated too. LJ played all the DB positions for FSU. The best position in the NFL for LJ would be the free or deep safety position. If LJ was another 2 inches taller & had another 10 pounds of muscle on him he would be an excellent strong safety. LJ if asked would play NT without blinking. You have to love his attitude !

Whomever is the Rams new DC will be is sure not use strong safety Mo Alexander in the deep safety position in 2017 after reviewing the film of his play in 2016 vs his much better performance in 2015 @ strong safety.....thus we will see a another Rams DB (like Brian Randolph or Cody Davis) or a new rookie or newly signed FS in this deep secondary post. I would look for LJ to move into competition in both safety posts in his final contract year with the Rams. LJ could also be the back up Nickle to CB EJ Gaines who has turned into a medical wreak heap.

Rams will have four DB's playing in their final contract years in 2017 season....EJ Gaines, Lamarcus Joyner, Mo Alexander & Cody Davis. All have been starters at one time or another this season. Could the members here live with a 3 player competition @ FS in 2017 between Cody Davis, Brian Randolph & LJ?

The fact that the 14 million paid Ram corner did not make the list is not a surprise to me at all. Trumaine Johnson has not played well nor has he made any plays period. One INT thus far is not what Fisher & Demoff imagined when they tagged him. As the season wears on I become fully aware that Tru's present market value is way over priced & should be avoided at all costs in the future.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/los-angeles-rams/trumaine-johnson-9875/market-value/

If I going to spend big for a DB I would prefer to look hard @ ....
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/eric-berry-6514/market-value/

 

[Merlin]

I am an enormous fan of Lamarcus Joyner and never really have felt that he's a liability. His problem is he loves football to the point where he'll play with a leg dangling, and sometimes that can hurt the team. But I love the guy. If we had more like him, we would have to endure more Jeff Fisher.

IMO his future is at the slot CB position, and he will be a bounceback player next year with a huge season. IF he can stay healthy and if they put him in a more stable scheme where he's got consistent help over the top he will give them everything they thought they were getting when they took him round 2. Joyner's a key piece for a defense to my eye at least.

 

[Jacobarch]

a 3 player competition @ FS in 2017 between Cody Davis, Brian Randolph & LJ?

The fact that the 14 million paid Ram corner did not make the list is not a surprise to me at all. Trumaine Johnson has not played well nor has he made any plays period. One INT thus far is not what Fisher & Demoff imagined when they tagged him. As the season wears on I become fully aware that Tru's present market value is way over priced & should be avoided at all costs in the future.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/los-angeles-rams/trumaine-johnson-9875/market-value/

If I going to spend big for a DB I would prefer to look hard @ ....
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/eric-berry-6514/market-value/

I've been saying this since they drafted him. Let him play FS it's where he excelled.

 

[Ellard80]

Joyner is okay... but one of the type of players we need to part ways with.

Too many mistakes, fatally undisciplined, plays hard but not smart.

Sorry he is symptomatic of the Fisher theory... and it doesn't work.

 

[TheDYVKX]

Whomever is the Rams new DC will be is sure not use strong safety Mo Alexander in the deep safety position in 2017 after reviewing the film of his play in 2016 vs his much better performance in 2015 @ strong safety

I must be the only one who's thought he's been WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than he was last year. Last year he was atrocious. This year he's been pretty damn good to me, and I like him in the FS position going forward.

Maybe he'd be a better SS now that he's made a breakthrough, but last year's film was not good at all in my opinion.

 

[Memento]

I'm a huge fan of Joyner, and I think that he would excel in the free safety spot.

 

[BonifayRam]

I must be the only one who's thought he's been WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than he was last year. Last year he was atrocious. This year he's been pretty damn good to me, and I like him in the FS position going forward.

Maybe he'd be a better SS now that he's made a breakthrough, but last year's film was not good at all in my opinion.

I guess the best way I could reflect how I look at Mo' season @ starting FS is this way...

Mo 25 yrs old after 14 games @ FS has 45 tackles 1 sack zero forced fumbles & 1 INT. Our FS last season who has played the same amount of games & started the same amount as Mo playing for the Eagles ...Rod McLeod 26 yrs old has 76 tackles 1sack 1 forced fumbles & 3 INT's. That's a big difference. Rod's season last yr. for the Rams was even better than this season with the Eagles. I would have to say that Mo's performance @ FS is the worse since Fisher/Snead régime. I not sure if Mo ever show'd up on any deep pass play this season to help out our corners.

In 2015 when Mo started the last five games for strong safety McDonald Mo had 39 tackles (6 less than this season) in a very short period of time with 2 sacks. If I were making the decision on where Mo will start it's going to be up near the LOS in the strong safety post.

 

[TheDYVKX]

I guess the best way I could reflect how I look at Mo' season @ starting FS is this way...

Mo 25 yrs old after 14 games @ FS has 45 tackles 1 sack zero forced fumbles & 1 INT. Our FS last season who has played the same amount of games & started the same amount as Mo playing for the Eagles ...Rod McLeod 26 yrs old has 76 tackles 1sack 1 forced fumbles & 3 INT's. That's a big difference. Rod's season last yr. for the Rams was even better than this season with the Eagles. I would have to say that Mo's performance @ FS is the worse since Fisher/Snead régime. I not sure if Mo ever show'd up on any deep pass play this season to help out our corners.

In 2015 when Mo started the last five games for strong safety McDonald Mo had 39 tackles (6 less than this season) in a very short period of time with 2 sacks. If I were making the decision on where Mo will start it's going to be up near the LOS in the strong safety post.

Yeah I don't take stats into account at all when I'm looking at safety play, which is why I disagree. Fair enough.

 

[PressureD41]

As much as I would love me some Eric Berry, I think cap wise and play wise Alexander is playing well enough. The main concern of adding Berry is his contract when we need to focus on Donald & Tree. Now I "might be willing to walk away from Quinn" then McDonald to be honest.

 

[jrry32]

I must be the only one who's thought he's been WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than he was last year. Last year he was atrocious. This year he's been pretty damn good to me, and I like him in the FS position going forward.

Maybe he'd be a better SS now that he's made a breakthrough, but last year's film was not good at all in my opinion.

He's way better than last year. And aside from a few hiccups (let's be real, McLeod made those mistakes too when he was young), he's played well at FS.

My problem is that the kid is a natural SS. Him playing well at FS tells us he could actually be a really good SS. Joyner is more of a natural FS than CB. I think the entire defensive back-field benefits from Alexander at SS and Joyner at FS. Plus, our wallet benefits from it too.

 

[TheDYVKX]

He's way better than last year. And aside from a few hiccups (let's be real, McLeod made those mistakes too when he was young), he's played well at FS.

My problem is that the kid is a natural SS. Him playing well at FS tells us he could actually be a really good SS. Joyner is more of a natural FS than CB. I think the entire defensive back-field benefits from Alexander at SS and Joyner at FS. Plus, our wallet benefits from it too.

Yeah, I don't disagree. The nice thing about both of those guys is that they're versatile, so you're not locked into one scheme or one way of doing things. If Alexander needs to be deep, he can. If Joyner needs to be in the box, he can. So you would have flexibility there, unlike with McDonald who's much more of a liability on the back end. Makes it much easier to adapt to any defensive scheme we bring in and gives us more options.

Both of them are in contract years next season though, so if they play well we could be shelling out a lot of money.

 

[LACHAMP46]

LeMarcus Joyner....Another pick I never understood. I've seen the comparisons to honeybadger....and I've watched a lot of LSU football...and I never thought Joyner played as impressively as honeybadger in college. In the pros, the difference is even greater. As a former defensive back I can appreciate a great tackling player in the secondary. Joyner is pretty good. But his lack of ball skills at a key position is the main reason our 3rd down defense has struggled. Hell, all of our corners have serious limitations. The only way this defense can improve is to upgrade the talent (as well as a scheme change FROM the cushion of death)....And the last thing we need to do is move a weak player, to an even more important position (FS). And I don't think the safety play has been as bad as the corners.

Lastly....I seriously wonder who the hell is watching the games for PFF?

 

[jrry32]

And the last thing we need to do is move a weak player, to an even more important position (FS).

Except Joyner isn't a weak player and is actually a very good FS. It fits his skill-set incredibly. His ball-skills with his back to the QB are poor. His ball-skills with his face to the QB are actually quite good. And the kid has range.

 

[LACHAMP46]

Except Joyner isn't a weak player and is actually a very good FS. It fits his skill-set incredibly. His ball-skills with his back to the QB are poor. His ball-skills with his face to the QB are actually quite good. And the kid has range.

Because I respect your opinion jrry, I really wanna see Joyner at FS in 2017....right now, I see an overly grabby, kinda slow corner, that can tackle. If he was bigger, I'd move him to Barron's spot.

I'm sure that pff grade was b4 the games vs NO and Atl....