OldSchool mock #3

[OldSchool]

Probably the last one before free agency hits. At this point in time as we all know this is guess work, finding people you like and trying to put a round piece in a square hole.

Rams own Free Agency:

I'm cutting Austin and saving $3 million no explanation needed.

I'm keeping Quinn still.

I don't think we find a suitor for Barron so I'm cutting him. Reading through his contract details I'm not sure it saves as much money as some people hope or are claiming. This saves us $7 million.

I'm tendering Longacre, Lucas, Hill, Neary, Brown and Fickens.

I'm resigning LaMarcus Joyner he's likely going to take in the area of $10 million and I'll happily do that deal.

Resigning NRC to man our slot CB position.

Extending AD, went over this in the previous mock I think it's going to take north of $20 million a year. For this all I'm going to add is it's a 6 year deal with $70 guaranteed signing bonus so we take a $10 million cap hit this year.

Outside free agents:

Signing DT DaQuan Jones from the Titans. Ended the year with a torn bicep missing the last 4 games but was very productive this year and is great against the run. The 26 year old will be a nice addition in between Brockers and AD.

Seems I'm raiding the Titans free agents because I'm signing Avery Williamson at ILB. Good against the run but has room to improve in pass coverage. He and Jones help shore up our run defense.

At corner I looked around a bit. I had Breeland the last mock or two. I thought about Colvin but I think he's good in the slot and unknown on the outside, not much experience there and the results are mixed. Amukamara is a vet that could come in and I had Talib in the last mock who's still a possibility. For this one though I'm going to sign Malcolm Butler. It's going to take around $12-13 a year maybe more but it's hard to tell at this point.

Rough calculations puts me at about $7 million in cap space after free agency.

Draft:

Starting off with a trade. We trade down with the Giants for their 2nd (34) and 3rd (66) we give them #23 and our 4th (120)

Round 2(34) Mike Hughes CB UCF- I've looked at about 20 mocks by random people and about 1/3 of the time he goes in the first round (sometimes to us) and the rest he goes early 2nd. This like with all picks could change.

Round 3(66) Tyrell Crosby T Oregon - I know some aren't going to like taking an OT this high but I see a guy who will be Whitworth's successor and if needed could start for either he or Havenstein in case of injury this coming year.

Round 3(87) Uchenna Nwosu OLB USC - In this scenario he comes in and competes with Ebukam opposite of Quinn and provides good depth with Matt Longacre.

Round 5(151) Scott Quesenberry C UCLA - I didn't resign Sullivan in this mock so I'm having a 4 man competition with Blythe, Neary, Eldrenkamp and Quesenberry. Blythe looked good there and at Guard and Neary did good week 17 starting there against the Whiners. Eldrenkamp was a personal choice of Kromers so he has faith there and I'm adding another body that's capable of playing both Guard and Center as we know Kromer likes.

Round 6(197) Kameron Kelly S San Diego St - Big FS with the ability to play the center field position. Could go higher than this but he can come in as depth behind Joyner and contribute on special teams, which is needed because I didn't have us signing Davis.

Round 6(198) J.T. Thomas CB Oklahoma - Double dipping at CB for some depth. Thomas has some good ball skills and size but has had minor injuries and consistency problems which is why he drops here. Somebody for Pleasant to work with.

Round 6(200) Greg Gilmore NT LSU - I was looking at ILB here but didn't see anybody I liked that would be here this late. Gilmore is a big guy with room to grow. A productive senior year and with us signing Ellis he will be rotational depth as he adds more strength to play the NT.

There are several UDFA priorities I like but I'll refrain until we get closer cause some could be seen as 6th or 7th round picks at this point.

Depth Chart

QB: Goff, Mannion, Allen
RB: Gurley, Brown, Davis
WR: Wood, Kupp, Cooper, Reynolds, Thomas, Brown
TE: Higbee, Everett, Hemingway
LT: Whitworth, Crosby
RG: Saffold, Neary
C: Blythe, Quesenberry
LG: Brown, Eldrenkamp
RT: Havenstein, Lucas

DE: Donald, Fox
NT: Jones, Gilmore
DE: Brockers, Westbrook, Smart
OLB: Quinn, Longacre
ILB: Williamson, Hager
ILB: Ogletree, Littleton
OLB: Ebukam, Nwosu, Price
CB: Butler, Webster, Hughes, NRC, Hill, Thomas, Peterson
FS: Joyner, Kelly
SS: Johnson, Christian, I Johnson

Hughes right now is who I'm looking at for our first pick whether we trade down or stay at 23. I'd love a NT like Payne to fall to us but I just don't see that happening. I let Watkins walk because he will likely get paid more than I personally want him to get and it's time for Reynolds to step up and produce. I thought about signing a vet like Brown or Richardson to push him just didn't devote the free agency money to do it.

Well what do you think?

 

[XXXIVwin]

Nice work.

Personally, my main concern for the Rams in 2018 is at CB.

Under this scenario, our top 3 CB’s are a guy who was benched for the Super Bowl, a rookie from UCF, and a guy recovering from Achilles surgery.

 

[Prime Time]

http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads/draft-news-and-mocks.53473/

 

[OldSchool]

http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads/draft-news-and-mocks.53473/

I knew that

 

[Riverumbbq]

Yeah, ... with all the talk about cutting Austin, Barron & Quinn, I could see Quinn as the only one between them to survive the purge. He may even survive the final two years of his contract if the Rams fix the interior rush defense and find a lower price guy to compete with Ebukam on the left side. A proper NT along with a better run defending ILB will cure a lot of problems. It's not just Quinn that the Rams will be concerned over, but Matt Longacre's healthy return could also be jeopardized if his back isn't 100% by the OTA's.

Gotta say, I like the DaQuan Jones at NT pick if he passes his physical, could make for a very nice addition, and Avery Williamson remaining behind Jones with the Rams makes for another nice tandem in the front 7. Malcolm Butler makes the Hat Trick for a very successful and defensive minded free agency. All excellent picks imo.
Not sure Hughes survives to our 2'nd round pick, but if he does, that's a slam dunk.
Other than hoping Watkins & Sullivan return as our starting WR & Center, and wondering what you have seen in Fred Brown to have penciled him in as our 6'th WR, I really like this mock and won't mind if it goes down this way at all. Nice job. jmo.

 

[jrry32]

I like it. Jones is a very creative signing. I hadn't realized he's a FA. Great idea!

 

[Loyal]

Probably the last one before free agency hits. At this point in time as we all know this is guess work, finding people you like and trying to put a round piece in a square hole.

Rams own Free Agency:

I'm cutting Austin and saving $3 million no explanation needed.

I'm keeping Quinn still.

I don't think we find a suitor for Barron so I'm cutting him. Reading through his contract details I'm not sure it saves as much money as some people hope or are claiming. This saves us $7 million.

I'm tendering Longacre, Lucas, Hill, Neary, Brown and Fickens.

I'm resigning LaMarcus Joyner he's likely going to take in the area of $10 million and I'll happily do that deal.

Resigning NRC to man our slot CB position.

Extending AD, went over this in the previous mock I think it's going to take north of $20 million a year. For this all I'm going to add is it's a 6 year deal with $70 guaranteed signing bonus so we take a $10 million cap hit this year.

Outside free agents:

Signing DT DaQuan Jones from the Titans. Ended the year with a torn bicep missing the last 4 games but was very productive this year and is great against the run. The 26 year old will be a nice addition in between Brockers and AD.

Seems I'm raiding the Titans free agents because I'm signing Avery Williamson at ILB. Good against the run but has room to improve in pass coverage. He and Jones help shore up our run defense.

At corner I looked around a bit. I had Breeland the last mock or two. I thought about Colvin but I think he's good in the slot and unknown on the outside, not much experience there and the results are mixed. Amukamara is a vet that could come in and I had Talib in the last mock who's still a possibility. For this one though I'm going to sign Malcolm Butler. It's going to take around $12-13 a year maybe more but it's hard to tell at this point.

Rough calculations puts me at about $7 million in cap space after free agency.

Draft:

Starting off with a trade. We trade down with the Giants for their 2nd (34) and 3rd (66) we give them #23 and our 4th (120)

Round 2(34) Mike Hughes CB UCF- I've looked at about 20 mocks by random people and about 1/3 of the time he goes in the first round (sometimes to us) and the rest he goes early 2nd. This like with all picks could change.

Round 3(66) Tyrell Crosby T Oregon - I know some aren't going to like taking an OT this high but I see a guy who will be Whitworth's successor and if needed could start for either he or Havenstein in case of injury this coming year.

Round 3(87) Uchenna Nwosu OLB USC - In this scenario he comes in and competes with Ebukam opposite of Quinn and provides good depth with Matt Longacre.

Round 5(151) Scott Quesenberry C UCLA - I didn't resign Sullivan in this mock so I'm having a 4 man competition with Blythe, Neary, Eldrenkamp and Quesenberry. Blythe looked good there and at Guard and Neary did good week 17 starting there against the Whiners. Eldrenkamp was a personal choice of Kromers so he has faith there and I'm adding another body that's capable of playing both Guard and Center as we know Kromer likes.

Round 6(197) Kameron Kelly S San Diego St - Big FS with the ability to play the center field position. Could go higher than this but he can come in as depth behind Joyner and contribute on special teams, which is needed because I didn't have us signing Davis.

Round 6(198) J.T. Thomas CB Oklahoma - Double dipping at CB for some depth. Thomas has some good ball skills and size but has had minor injuries and consistency problems which is why he drops here. Somebody for Pleasant to work with.

Round 6(200) Greg Gilmore NT LSU - I was looking at ILB here but didn't see anybody I liked that would be here this late. Gilmore is a big guy with room to grow. A productive senior year and with us signing Ellis he will be rotational depth as he adds more strength to play the NT.

There are several UDFA priorities I like but I'll refrain until we get closer cause some could be seen as 6th or 7th round picks at this point.

Depth Chart

QB: Goff, Mannion, Allen
RB: Gurley, Brown, Davis
WR: Wood, Kupp, Cooper, Reynolds, Thomas, Brown
TE: Higbee, Everett, Hemingway
LT: Whitworth, Crosby
RG: Saffold, Neary
C: Blythe, Quesenberry
LG: Brown, Eldrenkamp
RT: Havenstein, Lucas

DE: Donald, Fox
NT: Jones, Gilmore
DE: Brockers, Westbrook, Smart
OLB: Quinn, Longacre
ILB: Williamson, Hager
ILB: Ogletree, Littleton
OLB: Ebukam, Nwosu, Price
CB: Butler, Webster, Hughes, NRC, Hill, Thomas, Peterson
FS: Joyner, Kelly
SS: Johnson, Christian, I Johnson

Hughes right now is who I'm looking at for our first pick whether we trade down or stay at 23. I'd love a NT like Payne to fall to us but I just don't see that happening. I let Watkins walk because he will likely get paid more than I personally want him to get and it's time for Reynolds to step up and produce. I thought about signing a vet like Brown or Richardson to push him just didn't devote the free agency money to do it.

Well what do you think?

You tell em' Old School!

 

[den-the-coach]

Boy oh Boy @OldSchool very intriguing and I like what you did at CB, some concern at Center as for some reason, am I the only one that was not impressed with Aaron Neary? I felt he got pushed around pretty good and did not showcase any strength although Blythe played well and how can you not like a center with the surname of Quesenberry? Just looks right having that name on the back at Center.

I love the Crosby pick, Rams need depth at Tackle and the trade with the Giants is a very realistic draft deal IMHO. Overall not having Sullivan would have me concerned because of his size compared to Blythe although they are listed close, Blythe just looks much smaller IMHO and you could be right on Eldrenkamp, but the Rams did not bring him back to much later in the season, so I don't know truly how much they liked him overall.

 

[So Ram]

Probably the last one before free agency hits. At this point in time as we all know this is guess work, finding people you like and trying to put a round piece in a square hole.

Rams own Free Agency:

I'm cutting Austin and saving $3 million no explanation needed.

I'm keeping Quinn still.

I don't think we find a suitor for Barron so I'm cutting him. Reading through his contract details I'm not sure it saves as much money as some people hope or are claiming. This saves us $7 million.

I'm tendering Longacre, Lucas, Hill, Neary, Brown and Fickens.

I'm resigning LaMarcus Joyner he's likely going to take in the area of $10 million and I'll happily do that deal.

Resigning NRC to man our slot CB position.

Extending AD, went over this in the previous mock I think it's going to take north of $20 million a year. For this all I'm going to add is it's a 6 year deal with $70 guaranteed signing bonus so we take a $10 million cap hit this year.

Outside free agents:

Signing DT DaQuan Jones from the Titans. Ended the year with a torn bicep missing the last 4 games but was very productive this year and is great against the run. The 26 year old will be a nice addition in between Brockers and AD.

Seems I'm raiding the Titans free agents because I'm signing Avery Williamson at ILB. Good against the run but has room to improve in pass coverage. He and Jones help shore up our run defense.

At corner I looked around a bit. I had Breeland the last mock or two. I thought about Colvin but I think he's good in the slot and unknown on the outside, not much experience there and the results are mixed. Amukamara is a vet that could come in and I had Talib in the last mock who's still a possibility. For this one though I'm going to sign Malcolm Butler. It's going to take around $12-13 a year maybe more but it's hard to tell at this point.

Rough calculations puts me at about $7 million in cap space after free agency.

Draft:

Starting off with a trade. We trade down with the Giants for their 2nd (34) and 3rd (66) we give them #23 and our 4th (120)

Round 2(34) Mike Hughes CB UCF- I've looked at about 20 mocks by random people and about 1/3 of the time he goes in the first round (sometimes to us) and the rest he goes early 2nd. This like with all picks could change.

Round 3(66) Tyrell Crosby T Oregon - I know some aren't going to like taking an OT this high but I see a guy who will be Whitworth's successor and if needed could start for either he or Havenstein in case of injury this coming year.

Round 3(87) Uchenna Nwosu OLB USC - In this scenario he comes in and competes with Ebukam opposite of Quinn and provides good depth with Matt Longacre.

Round 5(151) Scott Quesenberry C UCLA - I didn't resign Sullivan in this mock so I'm having a 4 man competition with Blythe, Neary, Eldrenkamp and Quesenberry. Blythe looked good there and at Guard and Neary did good week 17 starting there against the Whiners. Eldrenkamp was a personal choice of Kromers so he has faith there and I'm adding another body that's capable of playing both Guard and Center as we know Kromer likes.

Round 6(197) Kameron Kelly S San Diego St - Big FS with the ability to play the center field position. Could go higher than this but he can come in as depth behind Joyner and contribute on special teams, which is needed because I didn't have us signing Davis.

Round 6(198) J.T. Thomas CB Oklahoma - Double dipping at CB for some depth. Thomas has some good ball skills and size but has had minor injuries and consistency problems which is why he drops here. Somebody for Pleasant to work with.

Round 6(200) Greg Gilmore NT LSU - I was looking at ILB here but didn't see anybody I liked that would be here this late. Gilmore is a big guy with room to grow. A productive senior year and with us signing Ellis he will be rotational depth as he adds more strength to play the NT.

There are several UDFA priorities I like but I'll refrain until we get closer cause some could be seen as 6th or 7th round picks at this point.

Depth Chart

QB: Goff, Mannion, Allen
RB: Gurley, Brown, Davis
WR: Wood, Kupp, Cooper, Reynolds, Thomas, Brown
TE: Higbee, Everett, Hemingway
LT: Whitworth, Crosby
RG: Saffold, Neary
C: Blythe, Quesenberry
LG: Brown, Eldrenkamp
RT: Havenstein, Lucas

DE: Donald, Fox
NT: Jones, Gilmore
DE: Brockers, Westbrook, Smart
OLB: Quinn, Longacre
ILB: Williamson, Hager
ILB: Ogletree, Littleton
OLB: Ebukam, Nwosu, Price
CB: Butler, Webster, Hughes, NRC, Hill, Thomas, Peterson
FS: Joyner, Kelly
SS: Johnson, Christian, I Johnson

Hughes right now is who I'm looking at for our first pick whether we trade down or stay at 23. I'd love a NT like Payne to fall to us but I just don't see that happening. I let Watkins walk because he will likely get paid more than I personally want him to get and it's time for Reynolds to step up and produce. I thought about signing a vet like Brown or Richardson to push him just didn't devote the free agency money to do it.

Well what do you think?

You have some interesting ideas , but repeat yourself to much with Lb & DT. I think you sign a FA or draft the position.

At CB if Tru walks then of course your doing both.

If Sammy is not resigned McVay definitely will go WR , especially if Tavon Austin is cut.

 

[Merlin]

Really like your draft, first off. Hughes is going to be exceptional and he's not the only option in round one at CB who you can say that about but he is my favorite of the four (I assume Jackson of Iowa to not get anywhere near 23 otherwise he's my pick period). I think Hughes will start day one and be a high end performer for some lucky team.

The FA, meh, but I can get behind it. I think the end result of your offseason is a serious dip in offensive potency, however the defense would be greatly improved which is critical. I can get behind it overall but IMO it would be better if they could get just Watkins wrapped up on top of that.

 

[OldSchool]

Really like your draft, first off. Hughes is going to be exceptional and he's not the only option in round one at CB who you can say that about but he is my favorite of the four (I assume Jackson of Iowa to not get anywhere near 23 otherwise he's my pick period). I think Hughes will start day one and be a high end performer for some lucky team.

The FA, meh, but I can get behind it. I think the end result of your offseason is a serious dip in offensive potency, however the defense would be greatly improved which is critical. I can get behind it overall but IMO it would be better if they could get just Watkins wrapped up on top of that.

Just curious but is the offense dip just due to no Watkins? If so and you want him back how much does he cost and how do you clear the cap space for him?

 

[Merlin]

Just curious but is the offense dip just due to no Watkins? If so and you want him back how much does he cost and how do you clear the cap space for him?

Yes, losing him will adversely affect this offense. They might be able to get some of that back by adding a TE in FA, but either way if Watkins rolls out I expect a dip.

As to clearing space for him, that's a deep conversation that requires examples of who is paid what and how the cap hits are structured. Too many moving parts for meaningful conversation tbh, probably comes down to whether they want to make room for him.

If I had to estimate his value, I'd go with a similar deal to what Jeffery got in total and duration.

 

[Riverumbbq]

Just curious but is the offense dip just due to no Watkins? If so and you want him back how much does he cost and how do you clear the cap space for him?

This is why no fan will come up with the perfect mock, in order to gain somewhere you will be forced to lose somewhere else, we have too many potential free agents of good quality men who will want to be paid, and there may never be a consensus over who goes and who stays. If you are strictly looking at money, you may have to consider losing Quinn or Butler in order to keep Watkins. Since you are already drafting Hughes (lotta luck needed here for him being around when we pick in the 2'nd), perhaps lower your standards in free agency a bit at CB with a TJ Carrie to compete with Webster for that #2 role. Or lose Quinn and go after Aaron Lynch in free agency. Hell, i'd do both just to keep Watkins & Sullivan as starting WR & Center if that's what it takes. Doing this retains last seasons excellent offense and still improves your defense imo. The only part of the draft you might need to change is your 5'th rounder.

 

[OldSchool]

This is why no fan will come up with the perfect mock, in order to gain somewhere you will be forced to lose somewhere else, we have too many potential free agents of good quality men who will want to be paid, and there may never be a consensus over who goes and who stays. If you are strictly looking at money, you may have to consider losing Quinn or Butler in order to keep Watkins. Since you are already drafting Hughes (lotta luck needed here for him being around when we pick in the 2'nd), perhaps lower your standards in free agency a bit at CB with a TJ Carrie to compete with Webster for that #2 role. Or lose Quinn and go after Aaron Lynch in free agency. Hell, i'd do both just to keep Watkins & Sullivan as starting WR & Center if that's what it takes. Doing this retains last seasons excellent offense and still improves your defense imo. The only part of the draft you might need to change is your 5'th rounder.

Yeah it seems this year is no different from every other year. People think they can have their cake and eat it too. The common theme is the Rams will resign all their free agents and be able to sign a couple high impact free agents away from other teams while staying under the cap and making what they feel are the perfect draft picks. Eventually reality will hit and people will be disappointed. Hopefully regardless of what people feel about our off season the Rams will build on 2017's winning season.

As for your suggestions to keep Watkins and Sullivan that weakens our defense IMO not strengthen it. Lynch is not as good as Quinn and Carrie is not as good as either TruJo or Webster. We'd have to settle for upgrading our run defense and downgrading our pass defense. Just my opinion, but as I said I don't think there's a perfect answer. We throw out ideas and hope for the best. It is curious though, people around here were very excited for Josh Reynolds going into the season and now seem to think he'd be a huge downgrade from Watkins that would hurt our offense. Yet a lot of these same people during the season were critical of Watkins for not being better.

I love the time leading up to the draft.

 

[Riverumbbq]

It is curious though, people around here were very excited for Josh Reynolds going into the season and now seem to think he'd be a huge downgrade from Watkins that would hurt our offense. Yet a lot of these same people during the season were critical of Watkins for not being better.

Well, i'm happy to say I wasn't one of them. In fact, my preference was if we were to lose Watkins to trade how we would have used his money towards improving the OL with Andrew Norwell. This would catapult Reynolds into the top WR spot for at least the 2018 season. Replacing our worst OL pass protector (Brown) with one of the best in the league will more than make up for the loss of Watkins imo. We still have quality targets everywhere. Norwell also grades out as far superior in a run blocker role, so both Goff and Gurley gain overall. Thing is, this only settles a potential offensive problem and does nothing for our defense.
Using your Titans free agent NT & ILB, the defense is already better, especially in defending against the rush which was a rather large problem. I do see Carrie as an improvement over Webster, and with Hughes already on-board, once he develops some chemistry & confidence, this backfield with Joyner & Robey-Coleman returning is a net positive. Losing Quinn may affect our edge rushing to a degree, but again, a big improvement in rush defense. With Longacre & Lynch at ROLB, I'm pretty sure we would be just fine for a season. With Jones at NT, Brockers and Donald are even more effective, so while we may not have filled every position with the perfect answer, we're still a better, deeper defense. The money saved in free agency may even allow us to add a TE like Eifert if we can get him on a 1 year 'prove-it' contract. I'd feel quite positive about the upcoming season with a line-up like that. jmo.

 

[OldSchool]

The money saved in free agency may even allow us to add a TE like Eifert if we can get him on a 1 year 'prove-it' contract. I'd feel quite positive about the upcoming season with a line-up like that.

Personally not adding a TE at all this off season I'm letting the young guys grow a bit before we turn them into backups or get rid of them. Especially Eifert, and I know you said like him, he's played 39 of 80 games in his 5 year career.

 

[Merlin]

Yeah it seems this year is no different from every other year. People think they can have their cake and eat it too. The common theme is the Rams will resign all their free agents and be able to sign a couple high impact free agents away from other teams while staying under the cap and making what they feel are the perfect draft picks. Eventually reality will hit and people will be disappointed.

You and I are in agreement here OS. Been saying and saying that the Rams need to make hard decisions and many of the guys who will represent those hard decisions are the ones fans say "well why not just bring back XXX as he won't be that expensive." Well the answer is they need to clear cap by letting JAGs go, and signing difference makers to this roster long term.

A few million here and there add up quickly. Barwin, Sully, Tavon, I mean you look at cap hits for retention of those guys and next thing you know the money isn't there for the moves you want to make for the difference makers. Who are the difference makers in this group? Joyner on defense, Watkins on offense. All the others are expendable. That doesn't mean the Rams won't bring any of them back of course. NRC for example, if you let him walk then you have another hole to fill, so that's part of the equation, but overall the plan has to be to retain or bring in difference makers with your capital as much as possible.

 

[Riverumbbq]

I liked your mock before, now with the Peters trade I like it even better, although your # 87 pick and one of the 5'th or 6'th round picks are probably no more.

 

[OldSchool]

I liked your mock before, now with the Peters trade I like it even better, although your # 87 pick and one of the 5'th or 6'th round picks are probably no more.

My dream scenario now is for Payne to fall. With peters, add in signing our own guys back in Joyner and NRC add Payne for the run defense with Peters at CB and my goodness that's a deadly D.

 

[nighttrain]

You and I are in agreement here OS. Been saying and saying that the Rams need to make hard decisions and many of the guys who will represent those hard decisions are the ones fans say "well why not just bring back XXX as he won't be that expensive." Well the answer is they need to clear cap by letting JAGs go, and signing difference makers to this roster long term.

A few million here and there add up quickly. Barwin, Sully, Tavon, I mean you look at cap hits for retention of those guys and next thing you know the money isn't there for the moves you want to make for the difference makers. Who are the difference makers in this group? Joyner on defense, Watkins on offense. All the others are expendable. That doesn't mean the Rams won't bring any of them back of course. NRC for example, if you let him walk then you have another hole to fill, so that's part of the equation, but overall the plan has to be to retain or bring in difference makers with your capital as much as possible.

like to keep Sully but if Snead/McVay think otherwise all good
train