MMQB - Oopsed when I merged. This is Den's Dysfunction thread.

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den-the-coach

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Rams Junior High: Inside a Dysfunctional Front Office

Jeff Fisher’s recent comments revealed a giant riff between coaches and personnel, with both sides bickering about who’s to blame for the team’s failings. Plus more on Matt Stafford, Gronk and who to watch in Week 14

by Albert Breer
The Rams’ struggles haven’t been limited to the field in their first season back in L.A.

The Rams media session Tuesday didn’t play like a normal press conference inside the team’s temporary headquarters in Thousand Oaks, Calif. It was more like an assembly at what some in the building have come to know as “Rams Junior High.”

Coach Jeff Fisher was the speaker. General manager Les Snead’s new contract was the topic.

“I’m so busy here, I was honestly unaware he was extended. I’m being honest with you, we’re just working here,” Fisher said. “I look at this as being my responsibility, the win-loss record. We need to do a better job from a personnel standpoint. We’ve had some unfortunate things take place with some high picks in Stedman Bailey and Tre Mason and those kinds of things you don’t anticipate.

“But we’re moving forward.”

The comments went over like neutron bomb elsewhere in the ranks of the Rams. And it revealed a problem that’s existed since well before the team arrived on the West Coast.

In this week’s Game Plan, we’ll look at Carson Wentz’s recent struggles, the Patriots without Rob Gronkowski, the Giants’ free-agent class facing a major measuring-stick opportunity, a couple of Heisman finalists and the growth of burgeoning MVP candidate Matthew Stafford.

The Rams have not had a winning season since Fisher and Snead joined the franchise in 2012.

But we start in Los Angeles, with a deeper look into a problem that will be difficult for the Rams to fix going forward. And to be clear: What Fisher said Tuesday about the state of the team’s roster didn’t create a problem, so much as it revealed one that’s existed for quite some time.

The struggling 4-8 Rams host Atlanta on Sunday, then head to Seattle before closing the season with San Francisco and Arizona at home. If the Rams split those four, they’ll match the 2014 low-water mark for Fisher’s five years at the helm. If things don’t get better over the next month, there’s no assurance the club will go forward with any of the current power brokers on the football side.

And when I say “get better,” that means more than just beating the Niners or Falcons. It also means seeing the middle-school lunchroom sniping—the kind that earned the building the “Junior High” nickname—fixed to a reasonable degree.

Fisher’s take about the talent on the roster provides a window into the issue dividing the Rams front office. You can infer that a certain amount of water must flow under a team’s bridge before a high-ranking executive, like Fisher, publicly pees in the company pool.

“It pissed me off because I knew it was meant as a shot,” said one Rams source. “You see it under that umbrella—‘We need to do a better job in personnel.’ OK, but you want everyone to think that you have full control. You can’t have it both ways, and it can’t always be the talent. Look at the roster, 2012 to now. In ’12, Jeff did a masterful job with what he was given. But we’ve gotten more talent, and we’ve gotten worse.”

Fisher and Snead arrived as part of an arranged 2012 marriage after the Rams axed coach Steve Spagnuolo and GM Billy Devaney, and the team outdistanced the Dolphins for the coveted ex-Titans coach. Part of Fisher’s motivation for picking St. Louis was having larger say in personnel decisions, and the organization was structured to reflect that with a partnership between the coach and GM under COO Kevin Demoff.

There are differing accounts of when things soured. Efforts to get comments from both Fisher and Snead were unsuccessful on Wednesday. But the problems have been an open secret in league circles for some time.

Now, this isn’t exactly unusual. San Francisco had issues with Jim Harbaugh and Trent Baalke, which proved irreconcilable. The Colts had their own problems with Chuck Pagano and Ryan Grigson, and those two found a way to make peace and move forward when it seemed impossible. Way back, Giants GM George Young and coach Bill Parcells hated each other all the way to two Super Bowls.

That said, the relationship between Fisher and Snead has been consistently described to me as “toxic.” And it’s been that way for a while.

“It’s always good to have healthy tension between the coach and GM, but that shouldn’t hurt the team or cause finger-pointing,” said another club source. “Over five years, (Tuesday) was the first time you saw public comments. That should never happen. … The organization has given them a long leash. And given that they’ve had time, they have to win, and they have to be able to work together.”

From the coaching side, the only surprise in Fisher’s comments were that they were made publicly. Internally, while acknowledging there’s a talented young core in place (Robert Quinn, Aaron Donald, Todd Gurley, Alec Ogletree, Trumaine Johnson), complaints about the depth of the roster and a failure to strike with draft picks outside the first round haven’t exactly been rare.

As for the personnel side, their retort is swift. After jettisoning Brian Schottenheimer after the 2014 season, Fisher has chosen two first-time offensive coordinators who proved to be in over their heads, and offensive line development has been sparse behind line coach Paul Boudreau. The personnel side will acknowledge the team needs more help there, and at corner and receiver, but point out that losing players like cornerback Janoris Jenkins wasn’t their call.

They’ll also question how hard the team is pushed, with a lack of in-season padded practices being an example of the perceived problem.

Then it starts to get personal. One example: Perception held that Fisher’s guy in scouting for his first four years was Rich Snead (no relation to Les), who was seen as abrasive with scouts and an operative of the coach’s. He left the Rams last winter, amid some feeling that he was a divisive force in the organization.

To his credit, the GM has remained above board through this mess, at least publicly, and in the aftermath of Fisher’s comments. But clearly, there’s blame to go around when a team goes 31-44-1 in five years, without so much as a .500 season along the way.

Can that be fixed by New Year’s Day? It’s become increasingly clear that it better be.
 

den-the-coach

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I feel Snead has conducted himself professionally, but I believe you have to part ways with both. Somebody has to take the blame for the Greg Robinson pick, however, I don't put the blame on Snead...Robinson was the perfect storm, he was a LT, which the Rams needed, Offensive Line Coach Paul Boudreau apparently pounded the table for Robinson and the fact that Robinson attended Auburn where Snead was an alum and Fisher's son Trent playing for the Tigers also factored into the equitation.

In the end you either Fish or cut bait and it's time to cut bait IMHO!
 

JerseyRam1

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Demoff has to take back control and bring in the best candidates to run the Rams. 5 years of Snisher and the organization is losing and imploding. From a draft perspective, there seems to have been a pattern of laziness in the way the Rams have drafted. Think Austin/Bailey, Robinson/Mason. Also, two years ago grabbing almost all OL, then last year all offense...all need based picks and not necessarily best available players.
 

Psycho_X

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I've kind of let myself ignore most NFL news this week after this past game so guess I missed whatever it is that happened on Tuesday. Fisher openly complained about the Rams draft picks and personnel decisions? It always seemed like he was spearheading the drafts and picks himself.

It does seem like Fisher and Snead haven't exactly been buddy, buddy lately. But I tried not to look into it because who knows what is going on behind closed doors. But negative press is never a good thing and the Rams seem to be multiplying theirs by the day.

Edit: I typed this up for another thread that had less of the article than what is posted here so I see the comments now. It was suggested that Goff was nudged if not pushed onto Fisher as well. When I heard that rumor I thought that this was the beginning of the end for someone eventually. Fisher went through that song and dance once already with Vince Young and it didn't end well publicly. Can't help but think the same is happening again and Fisher is starting to show it as his losses mount.
 
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snackdaddy

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I always thought Fisher and Snead had a good relationship. Almost sounds like Fisher is blaming Snead for the player personnel. Which is strange because I always thought Fisher had final say. Whether this article is just sensationalism or not I don't know. But Fisher's comments lately are sounding like a guy who knows his job is in jeopardy. If ain't toxic yet it will be next season. I believe its time for Fisher to go. Thank him for the work he did and even move him somewhere else in the organization if you think he has value.
 

RaminExile

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Interesting stuff. I haven't lost faith in Snead. Part of that is not actually knowing how much of an input he has but I think he's identified talented athletes with high ceilings for the most part. Those guys are gambles. They don't always come off. Sometimes they do. Every organization has its share of busts and they are right in saying they had misfortune with Bailey and Mason. The terrible reach picks have been in the second round with Pead and Brian Quick.

That said, Snead is a young GM and sometimes you have to let guys learn on the job - otherwise they keep learning and go somewhere else when they're the real deal and you miss out on their long term talent. I'd like to see what he could do with 4 years with another coach. Lets see how that would pan out. Who else are we going to bring in as a GM and do a better job of pinsticking?
 

LumberTubs

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This is the kind of crap that you start hearing about any sports team when things are going badly.

Hate that it's happening to my Rams now but not surprised.
 

blackbart

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Sounds like a bunch of nothing to see here except a guy trying to sell something he made sound worse than it is. Who is this mysterious source. The quote from Fisher isn't anything to get butt hurt over but it is the truth. They have wasted some picks that haven't panned out, they have hit on some others that's the way it works, no one is ever going to get great talent or hidden gems with every pick. They haven't been able to draw top FAs, could be any number of reasons. Bad record, rebuilding, moving to LA blah blah blah.

No practicing in pads, I hate that idea. You play like you practice.

Not running the scouts and draft team better that's on Snead.

Getting called a junior high, no wonder the "source" is un-named.
 

MadGoat

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I always thought Fisher and Snead had a good relationship. Almost sounds like Fisher is blaming Snead for the player personnel. Which is strange because I always thought Fisher had final say. Whether this article is just sensationalism or not I don't know. But Fisher's comments lately are sounding like a guy who knows his job is in jeopardy. If ain't toxic yet it will be next season. I believe its time for Fisher to go. Thank him for the work he did and even move him somewhere else in the organization if you think he has value.

I'm pretty sure Fisher has the final say on personnel. I'm sure he defers to Snead on a lot of decisions though, and he surely relies on the scouting and reports from the personnel side to make any decisions. That would explain how Fisher could be down on the Rams roster while still having final say. Unfortunately for him, when you have as much control as Fisher does, you will take the fall.

We'll never know who was pounding the table for what players, who pushed for Tavon signing a top 15 WR contract, or who spearheaded the Nick Foles deal. I'm pretty sure that Fisher is gone now. The Rams are going to need a new GM, and 90% of the time that means the new GM will want to bring in a new coach to run things. If Snead was being overruled with bad decisions from Fisher, I could see a scenario where he is handed the reins going forward and is allowed to pick a coach, but I don't think that is likely.
 

FRO

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To me the only solution is to clean house and rebuild the front office. Current group has failed. The team has good young attractive pieces to attract a good coach/GM.
 

thirteen28

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Fisher’s take about the talent on the roster provides a window into the issue dividing the Rams front office. You can infer that a certain amount of water must flow under a team’s bridge before a high-ranking executive, like Fisher, publicly pees in the company pool.

“It pissed me off because I knew it was meant as a shot,” said one Rams source. “You see it under that umbrella—‘We need to do a better job in personnel.’ OK, but you want everyone to think that you have full control. You can’t have it both ways, and it can’t always be the talent. Look at the roster, 2012 to now. In ’12, Jeff did a masterful job with what he was given. But we’ve gotten more talent, and we’ve gotten worse.”

Yep. Fisher trying to throw "personnel" (i.e. Snead) under the bus after insisting that he would have the final say on personnel is just another example of the excuse making that has become all to frequent lately. He got his guys, they just haven't been coached well on the offensive side of the ball. That's on him and the lousy coordinators he's hired.

From the coaching side, the only surprise in Fisher’s comments were that they were made publicly. Internally, while acknowledging there’s a talented young core in place (Robert Quinn, Aaron Donald, Todd Gurley, Alec Ogletree, Trumaine Johnson), complaints about the depth of the roster and a failure to strike with draft picks outside the first round haven’t exactly been rare.

My jaw dropped when I read this comment. Not finding good picks outside of the first round? We just franchised a corner this offseason who was a third rounder. The guy who starts opposite of him was a 6th rounder (and yes, I know he's struggled some this year, but he was great as a rookie and he's coming back from an injury that takes a while to fully get over). A 6th round linebacker taken this year was doing a good job before he went down to injury. Both starting safeties were taken in the 3rd round or later. No, this one doesn't fly.

Edit: I typed this up for another thread that had less of the article than what is posted here so I see the comments now. It was suggested that Goff was nudged if not pushed onto Fisher as well. When I heard that rumor I thought that this was the beginning of the end for someone eventually. Fisher went through that song and dance once already with Vince Young and it didn't end well publicly. Can't help but think the same is happening again and Fisher is starting to show it as his losses mount.

I keep hearing that, but Michael Silver (who is generally pretty reliable) insists that Goff was Fisher's guy from day 1. On the other hand, the way he slow walked Goff's development and stuck with Keenum way after it was painfully apparent that he was hurting the team (while knowing that he lacked Goff's upside) makes me wonder if there isn't something to it.

That said, Snead is a young GM and sometimes you have to let guys learn on the job - otherwise they keep learning and go somewhere else when they're the real deal and you miss out on their long term talent. I'd like to see what he could do with 4 years with another coach. Lets see how that would pan out. Who else are we going to bring in as a GM and do a better job of pinsticking?

Agreed. Give him good coaches to work with, ones who can coach the talent they get and who can specify what they want, and he can probably find the right players.
 

DCH

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Fisher seems to be all about the optics - what do people think about him? What's his reputation?
He wants the players to think he's a great guy who is their buddy.
He wants the fans to think he's a down-to-earth coach who players would run through a wall for.
He wants people to think he's the leader of the team, with all decisions running through him.
He wants people to think that bad decisions ran through someone else.

Matt Patricia, people. You need a Matt Patricia in your lives. The Jeff Fisher Day Spa for Athletes Who Can't Handle Someone Who Talked Negatively About Them On The Sidelines needs to close if the Rams are to become a contender.
 

thirteen28

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If Snead was being overruled with bad decisions from Fisher, I could see a scenario where he is handed the reins going forward and is allowed to pick a coach, but I don't think that is likely.

I think another thing I would consider with Snead is this: Keep him, but change his job title to something like "Director of Scouting" or something along those lines. This might be the way to go if they bring in a heavyweight like Shanahan, Grudern, or someone else who will obviously have final say over personnel. If Snead is retained, but they bring in a first-timer, then maybe keep the GM title ... but Demoff/Kroenke* need to make the delineation of responsibilities clear.

* - Since we call Snead/Fisher "Snisher", can we call Demoff/Koenke "Doenke"?

Matt Patricia, people. You need a Matt Patricia in your lives. The Jeff Fisher Day Spa for Athletes Who Can't Handle Someone Who Talked Negatively About Them On The Sidelines needs to close if the Rams are to become a contender.

If he gets hired, you need to contact his agent to get your finders fee ;)

And please, please, tell him to bring the EP offense!
 

LACHAMP46

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Somebody has to take the blame for the Greg Robinson pick, however, I don't put the blame on Snead...Robinson was the perfect storm, he was a LT, which the Rams needed, Offensive Line Coach Paul Boudreau apparently pounded the table for Robinson and the fact that Robinson attended Auburn where Snead was an alum and Fisher's son Trent playing for the Tigers also factored into the equitation.
There were some very good tackles in that draft....My favorite was Jake Lewan....He had an outstanding combine. He played with the ferocity & instincts of a future All-Pro...When I heard him speak during an interview after his first season, I couldn't understand why this dude wasn't our 1st pick...We could have EASILY traded back and grabbed him, or just grabbed him outright...Who ever made this call blew it...and should be held accountable. And I gotta go Les and his scouts...A little blame must go to Boudreau as well...While Greg is limited and "raw"...he should have been better than what he is...ESPECIALLY as a run blocker. All coach boo there..

Fisher openly complained about the Rams draft picks and personnel decisions?
Hmmmmm....So now Keyshawn doesn't sound so crazy, huh?

Almost sounds like Fisher is blaming Snead for the player personnel. Which is strange because I always thought Fisher had final say.
Like above...I told you Fish didn't like the pick, why, cause a USC alumnus said so...It's like some serious investment group...they know what's going on in that circle. There is NO way a guy like Fish is cool with giving up that many picks for ONE player..That has Les Snead all over it...

They have wasted some picks that haven't panned out, they have hit on some others that's the way it works, no one is ever going to get great talent or hidden gems with every pick.
2nd & 3rd round picks can't be wasted in 2016....Hell, 4th and 5th rounders shouldn't either. But if you're missing on 2nd rounders...something is wrong. You're missing on some 1st rounders too??? Oh I'm ready to fire you from the couch....Too much info is out there to miss on any top 100 player...Teams that miss on 2nd & 3rd rounders...those are teams that are never in the playoffs. Teams that are missing on 1st round picks...are firing coaches.
I keep hearing that, but Michael Silver (who is generally pretty reliable) insists that Goff was Fisher's guy from day 1. On the other hand, the way he slow walked Goff's development and stuck with Keenum way after it was painfully apparent that he was hurting the team (while knowing that he lacked Goff's upside) makes me wonder if there isn't something to it.
Finally got your handle name...13-28...nice song....Keyshawn said it weeks ago...Truth at last.
 

Prime Time

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"complaints about the depth of the roster" - this is on Snead

"They’ll also question how hard the team is pushed" - this is on Fisher

From a draft perspective, there seems to have been a pattern of laziness in the way the Rams have drafted. Think Austin/Bailey, Robinson/Mason.

Austin was an over-reach. He probably would have been there in the second round. Plus he hasn't been used properly.

Bailey was shot in the head. Not anyone's fault obviously. He was a good pick. Chalk that up to bad luck

Robinson was a pick made on potential alone, a fatal flaw repeated often by the Rams front office.

Mason had a mental breakdown. Chalk that up to bad luck as well.

he's identified talented athletes with high ceilings for the most part. Those guys are gambles. They don't always come off. Sometimes they do.

See that's the problem. You draft players in the early rounds that are physically and mentally able to start. From the fourth round on you can draft some players on potential alone. I'm guessing they get wowed by players physical attributes and what might be, instead of what they are at the moment they pick them.

And then there's the matter of drafting players with a history of injuries during their college days. Sam Bradford is just one example.

"they would have had a shot at Asshole Face"

No thanks. Always thought he was a jerk and that proved to be true during the last time we played the Saints. Plus there's no way he could co-exist with Gregg Williams.