Bradford vs. Flacco: What Is An Elite QB?

[News Bot]

Troy Vandenbark
<a class="postlink" href="http://ramblinfan.com/2013/02/02/st-louis-rams-sam-bradford-vs-baltimore-ravens-joe-flacco-what-is-an-elite-qb/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://ramblinfan.com/2013/02/02/st-lou ... -elite-qb/</a>

St. Louis Rams quarterback Sam Bradford has been a polarizing figure among Rams fans since he was drafted with the first overall pick in the 2010 draft. Some fans wanted the Rams to go with the dominant defense lineman out of Nebraska instead of the former Heisman Trophy winning QB from Oklahoma with a questionable shoulder. The Rams went with Bradford largely because this is a QB driven league and you don’t win consistently without a franchise QB. Expectations are high for a former Heisman trophy winning QB selected first in the draft, and they may change ones perspective of that players performance.

Joe Flacco on the other hand was the 18th overall choice of the 2008 draft out of the University of Delaware, who surprised many by getting the starting gig as a rookie and leading the Baltimore Ravens to the playoffs. During Bradford’s rookie season he won the Offensive Rookie of the Year award as he took a 1-15 team and turned it into a 7-9 team that narrowly missed the playoffs. Joe Flacco led the Ravens to the AFC Championship game as a rookie. Since then Flacco has lead the Ravens to the playoffs every season and of course has them playing in the Super Bowl this weekend. There has been a lot of conversation among the NFL talking heads about whether or not Flacco is an elite QB. Many of these same NFL experts have openly questioned whether Sam Bradford is the answer for the St. Louis Rams.

I personally believe that Sam Bradford has done more with less during his time in St. Louis than any reasonable person could have expected, the team he lead to 7 wins during his rookie year was seriously short on talent and quality coaching. I do believe we need to see more from Sam to validate that lofty draft status and guaranteed money, but considering how the Rams franchise had been managed over the 4 or 5 years before Sam arrived and the talent on the roster it is fair to cut him a little slack isn’t it? So onto the real Joe Flacco vs. Sam Bradford comparison. I was checking out the preview for the Superbowl on the ESPN page and couldn’t help but notice how familiar Flacco’s 2012 regular season statistics looked, so I quickly jumped to the statistics page so I could compare Flacco and Bradford’s numbers but before we cover the numbers lets consider each players supporting cast, we will look at each teams top 3 wide receivers, top tight end and running backs.

The surprising thing here is that Lance Kendricks is listed on the Rams depth chart as the Fullback, but they did use him as a fullback nearly as often as he lined up on the end of the line. Unless you are a really delusional fan you would pretty much have to give the Ravens supporting cast the advantage at every position. The closest competitions would be Jones vs. Givens and Rice vs. Jackson, and as promising as I think Givens is Jones is just more polished at this point. If I were to compare Jackson and Rice in their primes I would lean towards SJ39 of course, but Jackson isn’t in his prime anymore while Rice is right smack in the middle of his. Vonta Leach is arguably the best Fullback in the NFL, while Boldin is a very physical receiver with excellent hands, and every Rams fan knows Torry Smith is the most dangerous deep threat in the NFL. So naturally you would expect Joe Flacco to have numbers well above Bradford’s based on the supporting cast, as well as the general perception among the media and of course that the Ravens are in the Superbowl.

I am not trying to imply that Sam Bradford is better than Joe Flacco or that Flacco is over rated in any way. I think that what Flacco has managed to do coming out of Delaware has been very impressive. Instead I am trying to point out how much expectations can cloud ones judgement when it comes to athletes. Of course winning also helps to shape the medias perspective of you, but I don’t subscribe to the idea that QBs are the primary reason you win or lose a football game, football is the ultimate team sport and winning on a consistent basis requires a good team. Yes good quarterbacks can help to compensate for deficiencies, but I believe Bradford has done that during his tenure with the Rams. Here is to hoping that Sam Bradford and the Rams turn a corner next season, and we wont have any more Rams fans or members of the media throwing around the term bust.

Thank you for reading and as always Go Rams!!!

 

[CGI_Ram]

That's a well written piece.



The weapons are not comparable, but Sam's stats hang right with Joe.

 

[ramsince62]

Shall we compare number of wins and salaries? Guess not, but so far I'd have to say "Bang for the Buck" goes squarely to the Ravens.

One thing seems certain, this coming season will likely tell us a heck of a lot about Sam for a host of reasons.

 

[CGI_Ram]

Shall we compare number of wins and salaries? Guess not, but so far I'd have to say "Bang for the Buck" goes squarely to the Ravens.

One thing seems certain, this coming season will likely tell us a heck of a lot about Sam for a host of reasons.

I hear ya, 62. But, the salary argument is tiring. Flacco signed a pick #18 contract. Bradford a pick #1. Of course the salary bang-for-the-buck favors Flacco. Complaining about the salary is sort of like being upset Christmas is on a Wednesday this year.

It should also be said that Flacco joined a team picking #18. That alone suggests he should be in a better position to win.

I am in agreement we expect big things from Sam in the year(s) ahead, but I'm also a realist that one man alone can't produce wins.

Cheers.

 

[-X-]

Shall we compare number of wins and salaries? Guess not, but so far I'd have to say "Bang for the Buck" goes squarely to the Ravens.

One thing seems certain, this coming season will likely tell us a heck of a lot about Sam for a host of reasons.

Well, since salaries aren't a NFL stat, I wouldn't compare them either. It's unfortunate that he went and got himself drafted #1 overall, but I really fail to see how that should be held against him. Nothing against you personally, 62. It's just a little tiring to see that over and over again when it factors 0% into his abilities. And you can count Flacco as one of those QBs who gets a 7 figure salary this year, because he's going to get retained and re-signed. And not to a paltry number either. Same with every QB who plays at a high level and makes it to the end of his first contract. It's the way it works with the highest paid position in the league.

This year will tell us a lot. I agree. I'm grateful that Fisher recognized that building your team AROUND Bradford is a more viable option than drafting Bradford and then trying to build around him after the fact. Not to blame Devaney or anything, but it is what it is. And it certainly wasn't from a lack of trying.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4C1ULpex3s[/youtube]

More stability = better production. I think we'll see that this year for sure. If not, then it too ... is what it is.

 

[jap]

Sam clearly has areas where he can still grow. However, the difference between Sam and all other young QB's in this league from Matt Ryan and later has always been the supporting cast. It has been tiring for me from Sam I Am's first season to see fans ignorantly dissecting his game and ignoring the obvious. Give him a solid OL and receivers with hands who can separate; give him a year to grow with those weapons in the same offensive scheme, and then lets talk about the best QB in the Wild, Wild West.

Even though the arm strength was there from 2010, Sam the Ram had trouble early with his accuracy throwing deep. Why? Because he had no consistent deep threat (i.e., good hands, good route running, decent speed) until Chris Givens arrived this past season. (DX doesn't count since his hands were as inconsistent as his health.) Lance Kendricks finally demonstrated he could be a deep threat late last season. Brian Quick has decent speed for his considerable size and should greatly mutate in his effectiveness between 2012 and 2013. It would be helpful for Sam to have a true #1 wideout like every other wannabe elite QB. However, our QB has been doing without a true #1 for three years. (Although Brandon Lloyd had some success, I don't think he's tough enough to qualify as a true #1.)

Give the man some weapons. Get him a FA/rookie TE who can catch. Dig up a #1 WR from FA or be prepared to quickly develop a bright rookie WR who's ready to contribute early next season. Get a polished Brian Quick on the field. With receivers with consistent hands at both flanker & split end, at TE, FB (I'm using Kendrick here), a RB, and behind a solid pass blocking OL and an aggressive offensive scheme, who knows how far this bright young kid with all the throws will soar?

 

[ramsince62]

Shall we compare number of wins and salaries? Guess not, but so far I'd have to say "Bang for the Buck" goes squarely to the Ravens.

One thing seems certain, this coming season will likely tell us a heck of a lot about Sam for a host of reasons.

Well, since salaries aren't a NFL stat, I wouldn't compare them either. It's unfortunate that he went and got himself drafted #1 overall, but I really fail to see how that should be held against him. Nothing against you personally, 62. It's just a little tiring to see that over and over again when it factors 0% into his abilities. And you can count Flacco as one of those QBs who gets a 7 figure salary this year, because he's going to get retained and re-signed. And not to a paltry number either. Same with every QB who plays at a high level and makes it to the end of his first contract. It's the way it works with the highest paid position in the league.

This year will tell us a lot. I agree. I'm grateful that Fisher recognized that building your team AROUND Bradford is a more viable option than drafting Bradford and then trying to build around him after the fact. Not to blame Devaney or anything, but it is what it is. And it certainly wasn't from a lack of trying.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4C1ULpex3s[/youtube]

More stability = better production. I think we'll see that this year for sure. If not, then it too ... is what it is.

My comments re: salaries weren't intended to be judgmental or imply an "official" statistic or measurement. I mentioned it because of the coming seasons salary cap issues. His outsized salary is a double edged sword which I assume will create difficult personnel decisions. My only point is that Bradford's big salary impacts not just his perceived "return on investment" year over year, but its effects (limitations) upon future acquisitions & retention's.

Like you, I'm anxious to see how Bradford fares this coming season with a seasoned supporting cast one year older and more experienced (with or without a so called #1 receiver) which is also becoming old. It's a bit disconcerting sometimes how rapidly some folks come to Bradford's defense at the slightest hint of criticism. I'm as hopeful as anyone on here that Bradford breaks out this season. But just as some are "tired" of salary quips, so to will excuses regarding a supporting cast become if applied
forward. This will be Sam's 4th season, we're all familiar with the circumstances surrounding the first two, all I'm suggesting is that it's time now for Bradford to begin earning that huge salary the Rams "invested" in him.

 

[-X-]

My comments re: salaries weren't intended to be judgmental or imply an "official" statistic or measurement. I mentioned it because of the coming seasons salary cap issues. His outsized salary is a double edged sword which I assume will create difficult personnel decisions. My only point is that Bradford's big salary impacts not just his perceived "return on investment" year over year, but its effects (limitations) upon future acquisitions & retention's.

Like you, I'm anxious to see how Bradford fares this coming season with a seasoned supporting cast one year older and more experienced (with or without a so called #1 receiver) which is also becoming old. It's a bit disconcerting sometimes how rapidly some folks come to Bradford's defense at the slightest hint of criticism. I'm as hopeful as anyone on here that Bradford breaks out this season. But just as some are "tired" of salary quips, so to will excuses regarding a supporting cast become if applied forward. This will be Sam's 4th season, we're all familiar with the circumstances surrounding the first two, all I'm suggesting is that it's time now for Bradford to begin earning that huge salary the Rams "invested" in him.

Yeah, I'm aware of the ramifications (no pun intended) of his salary. All I'm suggesting is that people stop using that as an excuse for why he can't be developed any further. It was an albatross the minute he was drafted for some, and they simply won't let it go. Again, that wasn't directed at you. I know where your head's at. I know you've seen many a QB come and go over your years. Probably starting with Gabriel, yeah? And I know you're not a "basher" either. So again, don't misconstrue my comments as arbitrary defense of Bradford against a perceived evil presence stalking him and trying to kill him.

His first 3 years are documented. Everyone who follows this team religiously knows what happened. The problem is when those same people ignore what they know happened, in an attempt to form a conclusion without paying any recognition to any of those (what they call) "excuses." And when you get three rookies this year who come in and light it up while running a read-option offense, then it doesn't make it any easier for those people to believe Bradford is any good at all. But that's comparing apples and oranges. The bottom line (to me) is you build your offense to support a pocket passer with good protection and good receivers. You don't give him that, you don't get a good QB. Simple as that.

 

[moklerman]

It's almost ludicrous just how much has been stacked against Bradford.

1st overall pick. 1st time head coach, 1st time GM, 1st time OC. Not a full training camp. Much of camp wasn't getting 1st team rep's. Loses Clayton.

NFL lockout, no training camp, new OC, new system, no QB coach, loses Amendola, loses SJ, DX can't stay healthy, high ankle sprain.

New owner, new coach, new OC, new system, loses Amendola.

Every year's been a musical chairs on the o-line.

I'm sure there's stuff I'm forgetting. But this hasn't been your run of the mill circumstances for a young QB to endure. That he still wound up elevating his game instead of being shell-shocked, to me, is very encouraging.

The Rams basically haven't had a QB that was drafted early and was the face of the franchise for a decade or more. I'm excited that Bradford looks to be that guy.

 

[-X-]

It's almost ludicrous just how much has been stacked against Bradford.

1st overall pick. 1st time head coach, 1st time GM, 1st time OC. Not a full training camp. Much of camp wasn't getting 1st team rep's. Loses Clayton.

NFL lockout, no training camp, new OC, new system, no QB coach, loses Amendola, loses SJ, DX can't stay healthy, high ankle sprain.

New owner, new coach, new OC, new system, loses Amendola.

Every year's been a musical chairs on the o-line.

I'm sure there's stuff I'm forgetting. But this hasn't been your run of the mill circumstances for a young QB to endure. That he still wound up elevating his game instead of being shell-shocked, to me, is very encouraging.

The Rams basically haven't had a QB that was drafted early and was the face of the franchise for a decade or more. I'm excited that Bradford looks to be that guy.

Let me tell you what some interweb geniuses (not on this board) just read.

Excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses.

Excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses.

Excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses.

 

[moklerman]

C'mon, give me a little credit. You don't think I needed to be told, do you?

 

[-X-]

C'mon, give me a little credit. You don't think I needed to be told, do you?

Good point.

 

[kurtfaulk]

Shall we compare number of wins and salaries? Guess not, but so far I'd have to say "Bang for the Buck" goes squarely to the Ravens.

you do realise that with those numbers flacco is asking for $20m per year don't you?

and really, wins. you're comparing chalk and cheese.

.

 

[jrry32]

Watching Flacco and Bradford, the supporting cast is the difference. You see many of the same issues from them. Seriously. If you read what Ravens fans were saying about Flacco for 80% of the year, it was the same gripes we had about Bradford.

I think if we actually can get Sam some help that we'll see his stats take a major jump. I think we'll already see a jump in his stats just because of another year in the system.

I'll say this much, I reviewed every single game Bradford played last year on the coach's film function with NFL Game Rewind. He certainly has things to improve upon still but it was very promising that everything I complained about early in the season with him improved significantly by the end of the season...especially pocket presence and scrambling.

And reviewing that Seattle game, it might have been his best game of the season. I don't care what the stats say. Never have. My mantra has always been that you need to watch the game to understand what's going on...stats just don't tell you enough.

And in that Seattle game, Bradford was great. His performance was right on par with what Brady, Rodgers and Romo did on the road against that same team.

Get this kid some talent and protection and we'll have a great one on our hands.

Here's a statistic(I know I just said I don't like them...so call me a hypocrite) that is promising...over the final 8 games(2nd half of the year), Bradford through 13 TDs to 6 ints. And if you think about it, it makes sense. You get more comfortable in a new system. If you extrapolate that to 16 games, it's 26 TDs to 12 ints. Hopefully, he'll keep his level of play up since he'll finally be in the same system with the same OC for a second consecutive year.

 

[-X-]

Here's a statistic (I know I just said I don't like them...so call me a hypocrite) that is promising...over the final 8 games (2nd half of the year), Bradford through 13 TDs to 6 ints. And if you think about it, it makes sense. You get more comfortable in a new system. If you extrapolate that to 16 games, it's 26 TDs to 12 ints. Hopefully, he'll keep his level of play up since he'll finally be in the same system with the same OC for a second consecutive year.

Yeah, that's right. And stats aside, you could actually see it happening before your eyes. I don't know what his problem was against the Jets, but you can chalk that up to the one shitty game a QB is expected to have per season. Other than that, Bradford played about as well as you could expect, given the circumstances. I don't think this current braintrust is going to neglect his development either. This year they will continue to set him up to progress, and he'll continue to get better.

There's enough evidence in this thread to prove that Bradford had a tough row to hoe up until recently.
Call it growing pains I guess. But that shit is ... over.

 

[CGI_Ram]

Here's a statistic (I know I just said I don't like them...so call me a hypocrite) that is promising...over the final 8 games (2nd half of the year), Bradford through 13 TDs to 6 ints. And if you think about it, it makes sense. You get more comfortable in a new system. If you extrapolate that to 16 games, it's 26 TDs to 12 ints. Hopefully, he'll keep his level of play up since he'll finally be in the same system with the same OC for a second consecutive year.

Yeah, that's right. And stats aside, you could actually see it happening before your eyes. I don't know what his problem was against the Jets, but you can chalk that up to the one cruddy game a QB is expected to have per season. Other than that, Bradford played about as well as you could expect, given the circumstances. I don't think this current braintrust is going to neglect his development either. This year they will continue to set him up to progress, and he'll continue to get better.

There's enough evidence in this thread to prove that Bradford had a tough row to hoe up until recently.
Call it growing pains I guess. But that shyte is ... over.

THIS is why I see us making a move via FA at WR or drafting one early (or a TE). It's well known we are short on weapons.

The braintrust will not continue to let that hold us back.

 

[nighttrain]

That's a well written piece.



The weapons are not comparable, but Sam's stats hang right with Joe.

Next year is the year of the Ram...
train