Why not the Rams?

[Anonymous]

Many of the key injured players last year were not older vets, destined to be hurt. Amendola, Bradford, Saffold, Smith, Murphy, Fletcher (uninjured knee); even Jackson and Bartell's injuries were flukey.

You can say luck is a myth, but that doesn't deny the fact that such plagues have happened to other teams as well over the years. I believe you make your own luck, and that as the bad starts to happen, sometimes a collective desperation can cause choices that aren't what one might do if things were normal. Amendola's elbow and Bartell's neck come to mind. Danny planted his arm trying to get more yards; Bartell turned his back to take the block on a 300-lb lineman. These are not typically sound techniques for a football field, and they are also unconsciously desperate.

I don't know if Fisher would have been able to stem the flood of injuries last year, but I can concede that his confidence could extend to getting his players to play more within themselves and play less risky football.

And yet, there's nothing that Fisher has done to date--even based on a few player comments that can't really be objective--that has reassured me there will be fewer health problems than last year, other than the fact that there has to be.

Bad luck in this case is just sheer mindless random numbers working a certain way. So, as luck would have it--a lot of guys got hurt.

And in fact Fisher had an injury plague in 2004 that chopped them down to 5 wins after being in the playoffs the year before. And the worst Rams OL injuries were in 2007, where they lost 10 guys total, including 6 out for the season.

So I agree with your final statement.

I don't agree though that they played risky football.

 

[Anonymous]

No... I'm referring to statements he's already made - talking about doing things a certain way so that the team makes it through training camp and practices healthy so they can head into the season with everyone at full strength. I have no doubt he will do other things throughout the season as well in order to try to limit injuries to his players. Do ALL coaches do that? Certainly. Do they all do it the same way or have the same base of experience to recognize the fine line? Certainly not. The idea that all injuries are dumb luck and there is nothing you can do to limit them doesn't make any sense. Are there always going to be unpreventable injuries? Of course. Will one team have more of them than others? Of course. Can training methods prevent some of the injuries? Well, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a coach that doesn't have that in mind when their staff designs his training regimen.

Bye the way, teaching players how to bend, hit, angles to take, etc... can ALL work to avoid injuries as well. Are they all teaching the same techniques?

I follow everything they say and I have seen no statements from him that would lead me to believe he is doing anything different from any other coach when it comes to training, conditioning, or practicing.

ALL he said about the OTAs is that they want to both go a certain speed AND watch out for the other guy. In other words he was talking about how to practice in shorts and shells. But he did not say a single thing that isn't common to teams throughout the NFL--and I gathered from that that he was just stressing the technique of practice for the rookies.

In fact if anyone else in the league were doing anything different during those kinds of padless practices--AND if it were bad for the players--wouldn't we hear about spates of injuries during OTAs? And I don't think we do hear about that.

 

[RamFan503]

I follow everything they say and I have seen no statements from him that would lead me to believe he is doing anything different from any other coach when it comes to training, conditioning, or practicing.

Frankly, I find that statement flipping ridiculous. EVERY coach does things differently. Just because they all have the same rules and are all practicing without pads means nothing. Of course they do a lot of the same drills and such but that is about where it ends. What do you expect him to say? I'm not sure there is anything he WOULD say that would change what you are saying. You really think coaches all run their programs exactly the same? I gots no answer for that then.

 

[Thordaddy]

Many of the key injured players last year were not older vets, destined to be hurt. Amendola, Bradford, Saffold, Smith, Murphy, Fletcher (uninjured knee); even Jackson and Bartell's injuries were flukey.

You can say luck is a myth, but that doesn't deny the fact that such plagues have happened to other teams as well over the years. I believe you make your own luck, and that as the bad starts to happen, sometimes a collective desperation can cause choices that aren't what one might do if things were normal. Amendola's elbow and Bartell's neck come to mind. Danny planted his arm trying to get more yards; Bartell turned his back to take the block on a 300-lb lineman. These are not typically sound techniques for a football field, and they are also unconsciously desperate.

I don't know if Fisher would have been able to stem the flood of injuries last year, but I can concede that his confidence could extend to getting his players to play more within themselves and play less risky football.

And yet, there's nothing that Fisher has done to date--even based on a few player comments that can't really be objective--that has reassured me there will be fewer health problems than last year, other than the fact that there has to be.

Well I disagree wholeheartedly that Jackson and Bartell's injuries weren't in any way age related. But I shouldn't want that to be the crux of this post. Rather I'll attend to the mounting injury factor and how it can change mentality as you alluded to.
I have maintained ever since the loss to the Pats in that heart breaker SB,that if we'd had a suitable alternative neither Tucker nor Jones would have played. When the guy ahead of you goes down and you have a nagging problem you may not even go to the trainer for fear you get sat down. Injuries to a roster can have a cumulative effect just THAT way.
Coaches PREACH that you have to fight through injuries, you have to be willing to play hurt , that some players put themselves more at risk in response to NEED is something I don't discount at all,maybe you play two more plays with a tweaked hammy and then it tears .
I also don't discount that at some point the "why does it matter " factor will come into play,where once a season is clearly lost and the player can't effect the season any more HE or the coach or both decide further risk is stupid, they made that determination on Bradford FINALLY, I thought they waited to long to make THAT decision,so anyone wanting to flog me for that belief remember they FINALLY DID.
Even the likelihood that you replace injured players with guys who are injuries waiting to happen and it played into why they were available in the first place can't be discounted.
There is randomness, but luck? that's just lazy thinking,it's the resignation to the fact that you want an answer and you are tired of looking.
Sometimes you make things happen unintentionally and write it off to luck because you just don't have the energy to keep looking.
But I'm a huge believer that when something begins to occur with greater regularity than expect-able you need to recognize that something more than randomness is afoot and resist the temptation to resign yourself to belief in superstition.
I owned a business where people had to work on Sundays,I had an employee who was calling in sick repeatedly on Sundays.
I explained to him the fact that a statistician would say something OTHER than random chance was going on and I wouldn't accept any more absenteeism , his health on Sundays made a remarkable improvement,he was "lucky".

 

[Anonymous]

I follow everything they say and I have seen no statements from him that would lead me to believe he is doing anything different from any other coach when it comes to training, conditioning, or practicing.

Frankly, I find that statement flipping ridiculous. EVERY coach does things differently. Just because they all have the same rules and are all practicing without pads means nothing. Of course they do a lot of the same drills and such but that is about where it ends. What do you expect him to say? I'm not sure there is anything he WOULD say that would change what you are saying. You really think coaches all run their programs exactly the same? I gots no answer for that then.

They don't do things differently when it comes to prepping players to practice smart so they don't hurt one another. I didn't say coaches all run their programs exactly the same, I said when it comes to the specific issue of accounting for player safety during OTAs---which is the only issue Fisher has directly addressed--he is no different. This is born out by the fact that no team gets people beat up in OTAs.

If it means nothing please tell me what Fisher is actually doing that is so different from all the other coaches who don't get people hurt during OTAs either.

The fact that we see something differently does not mean I am being "flipping ridiculous." It just means we see this differently. And...why not.

 

[Ramhusker]

YEAH! WHY NOT THE RAMS???????

 

[RamFan503]

I follow everything they say and I have seen no statements from him that would lead me to believe he is doing anything different from any other coach when it comes to training, conditioning, or practicing.

Frankly, I find that statement flipping ridiculous. EVERY coach does things differently. Just because they all have the same rules and are all practicing without pads means nothing. Of course they do a lot of the same drills and such but that is about where it ends. What do you expect him to say? I'm not sure there is anything he WOULD say that would change what you are saying. You really think coaches all run their programs exactly the same? I gots no answer for that then.

They don't do things differently when it comes to prepping players to practice smart so they don't hurt one another. I didn't say coaches all run their programs exactly the same, I said when it comes to the specific issue of accounting for player safety during OTAs---which is the only issue Fisher has directly addressed--he is no different. This is born out by the fact that no team gets people beat up in OTAs.

If it means nothing please tell me what Fisher is actually doing that is so different from all the other coaches who don't get people hurt during OTAs either.

The fact that we see something differently does not mean I am being "flipping ridiculous." It just means we see this differently. And...why not.

It's not the fact that we see something different. It's the fact that you think Fisher's program is no different than any other. I suppose there is some difference in your mind between "not doing anything different" and "not doing things exactly the same" - not sure what it is but... You are wanting to refine the point down to "prepping players to practice smart". While I would contend that Fisher still has HIS ways to see that is done, I am talking about the entire regimen. How a player eats, what his weight training routine is in the off season and during the season, how strength programs vary between coaches, how agility and flexibility drills differ, how his coaches key on footwork and where to be and move to in certain formations, how players use their bodies - it goes on and on.

I don't need Fisher to come out and say, "We are doing X to prevent injuries." - even though players and Fisher have alluded to it but apparently not directly enough for you. I am not looking for direct quotes. Much like Spags brought in MMA trainers to improve the players' body control and flexibility (yes - during the OFF SEASON), Fisher is without a doubt putting his own wrinkles on how the players train. The MMA thing didn't pay off for Spags. That doesn't mean in any way that the wrinkles that a much more experienced coaching staff put into place won't pay dividends in that area. And if you think that preventing injuries before they occur is not on the coaching staff's mind, I can't help you.

You put forth all the stats on injuries. Do you think for a second that the coaching staff hasn't been looking at those kinds of stats and info for years looking for an edge? But apparently they all get together and decide as a collective group what to do about it and they agree to do it all just like everyone else. Yep - that's the one area of the game where they are not looking for an edge over the next coaching staff.

That's what I refer to as flipping ridiculous. And just to clear the air. I referred to the statement as flipping ridiculous - not you. You put forth a lot of great info. But if I feel something you say is out there, I will address that - not your person.

 

[RamFan503]

YEAH! WHY NOT THE RAMS???????

Damn straight :sly:

 

[Thordaddy]

YEAH! WHY NOT THE RAMS???????

Damn straight :sly:

Or as my ancesters would say,"Yeh sure yubetcha","git us cupple o dem Lombardi Trophys side by each".

 

[RamFan503]

YEAH! WHY NOT THE RAMS???????

Damn straight :sly:

Or as my ancesters would say,"Yeh sure yubetcha","git us cupple o dem Lombardi Trophys side by each".

You Cajun Rich?

 

[Faceplant]

YEAH! WHY NOT THE RAMS???????

Damn straight :sly:

Or as my ancesters would say,"Yeh sure yubetcha","git us cupple o dem Lombardi Trophys side by each".

You Cajun Rich?

Or Minnesotan....if that is a word.

 

[RamFan503]

YEAH! WHY NOT THE RAMS???????

Damn straight :sly:

Or as my ancesters would say,"Yeh sure yubetcha","git us cupple o dem Lombardi Trophys side by each".

You Cajun Rich?

Or Minnesotan....if that is a word.

Ah yeah - didn't think of that. You may be right. But do they have hillbillies in Minny? My Mom is from Wisconsin - not sure what they call them but not much of a difference - Lakebillies maybe? :lmao:

 

[Thordaddy]

YEAH! WHY NOT THE RAMS???????

Damn straight :sly:

Or as my ancesters would say,"Yeh sure yubetcha","git us cupple o dem Lombardi Trophys side by each".

You Cajun Rich?

Or Minnesotan....if that is a word.

Ah yeah - didn't think of that. You may be right. But do they have hillbillies in Minny? My Mom is from Wisconsin - not sure what they call them but not much of a difference - Lakebillies maybe? :lmao:

Yeah My Mom is from Wis. too, Bayfield WAY up north on Gitchegoomie ( Lake Superior).
Norwegien imigrants,grandfathers home was turned into a bed and breakfast called "Captain Moes" I named my boat after him,he ran a harbor dredge on the lake.

Ever been to Dickeyville ? Seen the grotto? Paul Bunyan Park in Brainard Minn?
Proud of my family especially Tommy Moe he's a little better skier than me but I still try.

 

[Anonymous]

I follow everything they say and I have seen no statements from him that would lead me to believe he is doing anything different from any other coach when it comes to training, conditioning, or practicing.

Frankly, I find that statement flipping ridiculous. EVERY coach does things differently. Just because they all have the same rules and are all practicing without pads means nothing. Of course they do a lot of the same drills and such but that is about where it ends. What do you expect him to say? I'm not sure there is anything he WOULD say that would change what you are saying. You really think coaches all run their programs exactly the same? I gots no answer for that then.

They don't do things differently when it comes to prepping players to practice smart so they don't hurt one another. I didn't say coaches all run their programs exactly the same, I said when it comes to the specific issue of accounting for player safety during OTAs---which is the only issue Fisher has directly addressed--he is no different. This is born out by the fact that no team gets people beat up in OTAs.

If it means nothing please tell me what Fisher is actually doing that is so different from all the other coaches who don't get people hurt during OTAs either.

The fact that we see something differently does not mean I am being "flipping ridiculous." It just means we see this differently. And...why not.

It's not the fact that we see something different. It's the fact that you think Fisher's program is no different than any other.

I never said "his program" is no different from any other. In fact I just now reiterated that's not what I am saying. See the bolded part in my last post, in the quote boxes here.

I think you lost track of what I'm actually saying.

Want to start over and clear this up?

Begin with this. What is Fisher doing or saying that convinces you his approach to player safety and preventing injuries is different from anyone else.

Leave out "his program" in general, something I never addressed, and don't intend to address.

I am only speficially interested in one narrowly defined thing. What you do you think he has said or done so far that indicates his approach to player safety and preventing injuries is different from anyone else.

Because all I said is that any comments we have from Fisher indicate that his concerns for player safety and/or injuries do not lead to anything different from what anyone else is doing--when it comes to THAT. Not that HIS PROGRAM IN GENERAL is no different, because I never said that, or even thought about it.

See, my point is, there are only so many things any team CAN do to show concern for player safety and prevent injuries.

So if there are fewer injuries in 2012 I am going to take that to mean the Rams bleedin luck changed for the better.

And about dammm time too.

 

[RamFan503]

It's not the fact that we see something different. It's the fact that you think Fisher's program is no different than any other.

I never said "his program" is no different from any other. In fact I just now reiterated that's not what I am saying. See the bolded part in my last post, in the quote boxes here.

I think you lost track of what I'm actually saying.

Want to start over and clear this up?

Begin with this. What is Fisher doing or saying that convinces you his approach to player safety and preventing injuries is different from anyone else.

Leave out "his program" in general, something I never addressed, and don't intend to address.

I am only speficially interested in one narrowly defined thing. What you do you think he has said or done so far that indicates his approach to player safety and preventing injuries is different from anyone else.

Because all I said is that any comments we have from Fisher indicate that his concerns for player safety and/or injuries do not lead to anything different from what anyone else is doing--when it comes to THAT. Not that HIS PROGRAM IN GENERAL is no different, because I never said that, or even thought about it.

See, my point is, there are only so many things any team CAN do to show concern for player safety and prevent injuries.

So if there are fewer injuries in 2012 I am going to take that to mean the Rams bleedin luck changed for the better.

And about dammm time too.

Well - nooooo - You can't just try to revise the point of the argument to find a way out. I think you intentionally lost track of the point I originally was suggesting. Here is the direct quote that started this part of the discussion:

"Yeah - see I'm looking at everything that has changed and all that has remained and it sure seems to me that we have every bit as much of a chance of getting into the playoffs as any other team. I also think that this regime may know a bit more about conditioning and the proper way to prepare for the season. I'm thinking the result may very well be ... wait for it.... less injuries. We've had a rash of injuries over the past 6 years or so. Why? Cursed? I don't think so. I think it very well could be that we were not properly prepared for an NFL season. I just don't buy that it was all coincidence. First time HCs have their hands full as it is. They are learning about how to be a HC. I'm just not sure they have the patience to realize the old adage that you have to live to fight another day. Just my arm chair observation."

The bolded sentences were the ones you argued against. You can't now expect to spin it to say that you were only talking about one minor aspect. All the things I alluded to are part of preparing for a season. I didn't pigeon hole it to the "showing concern for player safety" argument - whatever that means. I said that the added experience and the approach to preparing for the season could result in less injuries. THAT is where you disagreed originally.

Again, I'm not going to go searching a bunch of quotes. I don't have time for that and I'm not sure that if I came up with a hundred of them, it would make a difference for you. Even in your post about SJ he alludes to keeping guys healthy. He clearly knows there are things that can affect player health. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest he's not talking about preparing for the cold and flu season. There have been other small statements within interviews that similarly brush on doing things to prevent injury.

You can try all day long to pinch this discussion down to some minute portion of the subject so that you can think you are right. Unfortunately, I never said what you are arguing against. I did say that Fisher's program to date no doubt has differences based on his experience. I did not however couch the argument solely around practicing without pads and walk-throughs. Last I checked, they didn't stop there and think they were prepared for the season.

 

[Anonymous]

It's not the fact that we see something different. It's the fact that you think Fisher's program is no different than any other.

I never said "his program" is no different from any other. In fact I just now reiterated that's not what I am saying. See the bolded part in my last post, in the quote boxes here.

I think you lost track of what I'm actually saying.

Want to start over and clear this up?

Begin with this. What is Fisher doing or saying that convinces you his approach to player safety and preventing injuries is different from anyone else.

Leave out "his program" in general, something I never addressed, and don't intend to address.

I am only speficially interested in one narrowly defined thing. What you do you think he has said or done so far that indicates his approach to player safety and preventing injuries is different from anyone else.

Because all I said is that any comments we have from Fisher indicate that his concerns for player safety and/or injuries do not lead to anything different from what anyone else is doing--when it comes to THAT. Not that HIS PROGRAM IN GENERAL is no different, because I never said that, or even thought about it.

See, my point is, there are only so many things any team CAN do to show concern for player safety and prevent injuries.

So if there are fewer injuries in 2012 I am going to take that to mean the Rams bleedin luck changed for the better.

And about dammm time too.

Well - nooooo - You can't just try to revise the point of the argument to find a way out. .

We;re done.

 

[Thordaddy]

It's not the fact that we see something different. It's the fact that you think Fisher's program is no different than any other.

I never said "his program" is no different from any other. In fact I just now reiterated that's not what I am saying. See the bolded part in my last post, in the quote boxes here.

I think you lost track of what I'm actually saying.

Want to start over and clear this up?

Begin with this. What is Fisher doing or saying that convinces you his approach to player safety and preventing injuries is different from anyone else.

Leave out "his program" in general, something I never addressed, and don't intend to address.

I am only speficially interested in one narrowly defined thing. What you do you think he has said or done so far that indicates his approach to player safety and preventing injuries is different from anyone else.

Because all I said is that any comments we have from Fisher indicate that his concerns for player safety and/or injuries do not lead to anything different from what anyone else is doing--when it comes to THAT. Not that HIS PROGRAM IN GENERAL is no different, because I never said that, or even thought about it.

See, my point is, there are only so many things any team CAN do to show concern for player safety and prevent injuries.

So if there are fewer injuries in 2012 I am going to take that to mean the Rams bleedin luck changed for the better.

And about dammm time too.

Well - nooooo - You can't just try to revise the point of the argument to find a way out. .

We;re done.

Well I'm not and as soon as I have something intelligent to say,I'm gonna
Banjo time

 

[bluecoconuts]

I'm just gonna go ahead and close the thread before it gets ugly.

 

[-X-]

Emperor Coconuts wields much power.