Who's the best to wear No. 13?

[Mojo Ram]

If I had to start a team with any QB in history the top of that list would be Elway then Marino.

Yep. Elway.

 

[moklerman]

Marino is currently fifth, behind Brett Favre,Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and John Elway on the list of most wins by a starting quarterback, with 147.[17] His winning percentage was .613.

^ looks like a winner to me.

The NFL is the ultimate team sport. Because he didn't win a SB is an argument I don't agree with - at all!

That's why I looked at the overall playoff numbers. Granted, it's a team sport and the W/L record is not the QB's stat. But that doesn't excuse a drop in production from the QB. Throughout a career, if a QB's numbers are significantly lower during the playoffs than they were during the regular season it makes me have to consider that maybe he was playing against a weak division. Brady, Manning, Marino...all great. But none are exactly know for coming up big on the grandest stage.

Warner's career numbers overall aren't that impressive but he started his career in the NFL pretty late and lost a few years of productive play to injuries and circumstance. He'll get knocked for his lack of longevity but the guy's story and his dazzling performances on the biggest stages will get him into the HOF. I doubt if it'll be unanimous when it happens but I wouldn't be surprised if he was first ballot.

 

[moklerman]

If I had to start a team with any QB in history the top of that list would be Elway then Marino.

Too bad there's a good chance Elway wouldn't want to play for your team. Just ask Colts fans.

 

[Rmfnlt]

Marino was a great player but he never won when the pressure was on so how can anyone say he was better than a SuperBowl Champion/MVP?

This is the issue for many...

How do you define greatness?

Is it mainly the numbers? Marino's hard to beat.

Is it the championships? Warner has him there.

To me Warner gets the nod because, while his numbers weren't as gaudy as Marino's, they were still impressive and, he won a SB.

Maynard... I remember him... great player, but not in this conversation in my opinion.

 

[Thordaddy]

Too bad there's a good chance Elway wouldn't want to play for your team. Just ask Colts fans.

It was Jim Irsay who spawned Robert Elway wanted nothing to do with, maybe asking an Elway fan get's ya a better take on it

My heart goes with Warner , he showed me things as a QB I've never seen others do ,then again it WAS the Martz system. Marino had the best arm but as X says was a bit of a head case and IMO the QB position is about so much more than just throwing or running, IMO Warner was a better leader and a way better man, he gets my vote .

 

[moklerman]

Yep. Elway.

I really don't understand the Elway love. Dude forced his way to a decent team(which Denver was), had a good HC, good defense and certainly didn't have to carry the team on his own. If not for the fact that he got to play the hapless Browns all the time in the playoffs, he wouldn't even have a legacy. He had a rocket arm but so did Jeff George. If I'm considering all-time QB's, I'm looking at smart guys. Montana and Warner come to mind.

Elway reminds me of a baseball pitcher who comes into the league firing 100 mph fastballs. Wins some games and does pretty well. But his biggest asset is his fastball and not until later in his career does he become a good pitcher when the fastball fades and he has to learn how to think and pitch. When Elway finally quit trying to throw the ball through things and started being smart and the Broncos relied on their running game, then they won it all.

I'd rather have QB who was smart to start with. Aaron Rodgers also comes to mind.

 

[moklerman]

It was Jim Irsay who spawned Robert Elway wanted nothing to do with, maybe asking an Elway fan get's ya a better take on it

My heart goes with Warner , he showed me things as a QB I've never seen others do ,then again it WAS the Martz system. Marino had the best arm but as X says was a bit of a head case and IMO the QB position is about so much more than just throwing or running, IMO Warner was a better leader and a way better man, he gets my vote .

I'd lend more credence to that explanation if Peyton hadn't gone in and did what he did. If Elway was truly "great", he'd have gone to where he was drafted. He and Eli get major strikes in my book for doing what they did on draft day.

As far as Warner and the Martz system, don't forget he did much the same in the Haley system. Warner having multiple Super Bowl runs with two different teams, years apart, will earn him a great deal of consideration from the HOF voters IMO.

 

[Thordaddy]

I really don't understand the Elway love. Dude forced his way to a decent team(which Denver was), had a good HC, good defense and certainly didn't have to carry the team on his own. If not for the fact that he got to play the hapless Browns all the time in the playoffs, he wouldn't even have a legacy. He had a rocket arm but so did Jeff George. If I'm considering all-time QB's, I'm looking at smart guys. Montana and Warner come to mind.

Elway reminds me of a baseball pitcher who comes into the league firing 100 mph fastballs. Wins some games and does pretty well. But his biggest asset is his fastball and not until later in his career does he become a good pitcher when the fastball fades and he has to learn how to think and pitch. When Elway finally quit trying to throw the ball through things and started being smart and the Broncos relied on their running game, then they won it all.

I'd rather have QB who was smart to start with. Aaron Rodgers also comes to mind.

He got em there a bunch of times just on his arm, but one dimensional Bronco's teams don't win SB'a or didja miss that one last year

 

[Thordaddy]

I'd lend more credence to that explanation if Peyton hadn't gone in and did what he did. If Elway was truly "great", he'd have gone to where he was drafted. He and Eli get major strikes in my book for doing what they did on draft day.

As far as Warner and the Martz system, don't forget he did much the same in the Haley system. Warner having multiple Super Bowl runs with two different teams, years apart, will earn him a great deal of consideration from the HOF voters IMO.

I don't think Warner did do "much the same " in AZ , he did very well but with Martz those first three years his recs. didn't have to see many of the balls he put on the money so well all they needed to do was be there and count it in.

Like I say though I'm an Elway fan and how Manning "did" in Indy was in spite of the older Irsay .

I have no problem with what Elway did especially , he WAS a good enough baseball player to have the choice to take what the NFL dictated for his one and only life and athletic career and be a good boy ,or just go play another sport .
You don't I see think Irsay buckling to the kid as being in any way detrimental to his "team" of NFL owners or your apparent backing of the NFL's draft sanctity.
I admired the guy FOR it , it took balls to do that and OBTW the ONLY reason the draft is LEGAL AT ALL is because players already in the league (NFLPA) bargained the right to do what Elway accomplished to buck that system away from players who had no vote. ABOVE FOOTBALL and ONLY below God and family ,I believe in the free man.

 

[Rmfnlt]

Brady, Manning, Marino...all great. But none are exactly know for coming up big on the grandest stage.

I don't see it that way.

Brady, in particular - and Manning to a lesser extent - have been pretty darned good on the big stage (Manning this year nothwithstanding).

 

[fearsomefour]

I really don't understand the Elway love. Dude forced his way to a decent team(which Denver was), had a good HC, good defense and certainly didn't have to carry the team on his own. If not for the fact that he got to play the hapless Browns all the time in the playoffs, he wouldn't even have a legacy. He had a rocket arm but so did Jeff George. If I'm considering all-time QB's, I'm looking at smart guys. Montana and Warner come to mind.

Elway reminds me of a baseball pitcher who comes into the league firing 100 mph fastballs. Wins some games and does pretty well. But his biggest asset is his fastball and not until later in his career does he become a good pitcher when the fastball fades and he has to learn how to think and pitch. When Elway finally quit trying to throw the ball through things and started being smart and the Broncos relied on their running game, then they won it all.

I'd rather have QB who was smart to start with. Aaron Rodgers also comes to mind.

Elway has all the physical attributes you want in a QB.
As for a QB being on a good team....chicken and egg discussion. Rogers, Montana, Warner....all great. All had plenty of help. Did they make their teams much better, heck yes. Did their teams help support them, heck yes.
Marino, to me, is the best pure passer ever. Elway the best package in terms of physically what you want. It is interesting that many guys that make up the list of all timers (Warner, Montana, Brady ect) have either limitations or were over looked.

 

[fearsomefour]

I don't see it that way.

Brady, in particular - and Manning to a lesser extent - have been pretty darned good on the big stage (Manning this year nothwithstanding).

Brady and Manning have the same weaknesses in that they do not deal with pass rush well.
Manning won his one title in spite of himself.

 

[moklerman]

He got em there a bunch of times just on his arm, but one dimensional Bronco's teams don't win SB'a or didja miss that one last year

Like I said, his HOF reel is pretty much against the Browns. And Schottenheimer's the biggest choker in the history of good HC's.

And, you make a point in my favor by saying Manning succeeded with the Colts in spite of Irsay. I agree. Too bad Elway didn't even try.

I'm not defending ownership or the league over the players but the draft system is set up, in principle, to help the bad teams. Otherwise you'd have the 49ers and Patriots taking advantage somehow. They'd have the best record and still get the top draft picks.

Players free to go where they want is a nice theory but I happen to like the checks and balances put in place by the NFL(as opposed to MLB for example). A player that doesn't go where he's drafted just seems like a front-runner to me.

And I'm not saying Elway wasn't any good at all, I just wouldn't build around him nor do I think he's as great as others do.

 

[moklerman]

I don't see it that way.

Brady, in particular - and Manning to a lesser extent - have been pretty darned good on the big stage (Manning this year nothwithstanding).

Compared to what they did during the regular season? I don't think so. All of them had huge drops in production and efficiency.

 

[moklerman]

Elway has all the physical attributes you want in a QB.
As for a QB being on a good team....chicken and egg discussion. Rogers, Montana, Warner....all great. All had plenty of help. Did they make their teams much better, heck yes. Did their teams help support them, heck yes.
Marino, to me, is the best pure passer ever. Elway the best package in terms of physically what you want. It is interesting that many guys that make up the list of all timers (Warner, Montana, Brady ect) have either limitations or were over looked.

Okay, but you can't really break it down into pieces like that when pick "A" guy. Hell, Testaverde probably had the strongest arm, Tarkenton the best legs, etc. And if it came down to purely physical assets overall, I'd take Steve Young over Elway. His arm wasn't as strong but his legs were better and he was MUCH more accurate.

 

[Rmfnlt]

Compared to what they did during the regular season? I don't think so. All of them had huge drops in production and efficiency.

I can see you are very passionate about Warner, so I'll bow out of this conversation.

BTW, I sided with Warner vs. Marino... but this thread has taken a different direction now.

 

[Thordaddy]

Like I said, his HOF reel is pretty much against the Browns. And Schottenheimer's the biggest choker in the history of good HC's.

And, you make a point in my favor by saying Manning succeeded with the Colts in spite of Irsay. I agree. Too bad Elway didn't even try.

I'm not defending ownership or the league over the players but the draft system is set up, in principle, to help the bad teams. Otherwise you'd have the 49ers and Patriots taking advantage somehow. They'd have the best record and still get the top draft picks.

Players free to go where they want is a nice theory but I happen to like the checks and balances put in place by the NFL(as opposed to MLB for example). A player that doesn't go where he's drafted just seems like a front-runner to me.

And I'm not saying Elway wasn't any good at all, I just wouldn't build around him nor do I think he's as great as others do.

But MLB as a model of inequity is defeated by a St.Louis team, the Cardinals.

Manning succeeds AFTER Irsay gets slapped across the chops and taught humility by Elway , no point in your favor at all.

Like I said ,football is a great game, but it's human rights issues are not exemplary.
IMO the draft can co-exist with players being free agents coming out of school , a player aught to have a choice between electing to be a FA or submitting himself to the draft ,I know it's blasphemy this idea of personal freedom over vicarious entertainment , but I'm just anti involuntary servitude to what some call a fault, I think it a virtue,but womb I.

Thanks mok your a good baiter and debater,I like jousting with you ,but I ain't goin steel cage on this unless a few more join in and we've derailed this enough IMO.

 

[CGI_Ram]

Like I said, his HOF reel is pretty much against the Browns. And Schottenheimer's the biggest choker in the history of good HC's.

And, you make a point in my favor by saying Manning succeeded with the Colts in spite of Irsay. I agree. Too bad Elway didn't even try.

I'm not defending ownership or the league over the players but the draft system is set up, in principle, to help the bad teams. Otherwise you'd have the 49ers and Patriots taking advantage somehow. They'd have the best record and still get the top draft picks.

Players free to go where they want is a nice theory but I happen to like the checks and balances put in place by the NFL(as opposed to MLB for example). A player that doesn't go where he's drafted just seems like a front-runner to me.

And I'm not saying Elway wasn't any good at all, I just wouldn't build around him nor do I think he's as great as others do.

I don't think Elway (or Eli) draft antics effect much in this conversation, though.

 

[moklerman]

I don't think Elway (or Eli) draft antics effect much in this conversation, though.

Maybe not to some, but it's a part of it for me. Because if I don't even know if said QB will play for my team, I'm not going to choose that guy to build around. I want the guy that doesn't care where he goes, he's determined to make that team a winner.

 

[moklerman]

But MLB as a model of inequity is defeated by a St.Louis team, the Cardinals.

Manning succeeds AFTER Irsay gets slapped across the chops and taught humility by Elway , no point in your favor at all.

Like I said ,football is a great game, but it's human rights issues are not exemplary.
IMO the draft can co-exist with players being free agents coming out of school , a player aught to have a choice between electing to be a FA or submitting himself to the draft ,I know it's blasphemy this idea of personal freedom over vicarious entertainment , but I'm just anti involuntary servitude to what some call a fault, I think it a virtue,but womb I.

Thanks mok your a good baiter and debater,I like jousting with you ,but I ain't goin steel cage on this unless a few more join in and we've derailed this enough IMO.

I think you're confusing issues though. "Involuntary servitude"? C'mon, no one's holding a gun to their heads to play in the NFL. If they want to flip burgers for a living, they're free to do so. But the bottom line is, I think your field of view is too narrow. You're pinpointing specific teams when the big picture is they're in the NFL regardless of which team they go to. And they get paid millions of dollars at the lowest levels if they make a roster and play 3-4 years. You make it sound like a southern plantation in the 1700's or something.

Like I said, if a college player has the opportunity to be a FA out of school, then the good teams will snatch them up. Why would most college players sign with the London Sillynannies when they could sign with the best team at the time? And don't say money, because the historically bad teams are the one's that don't spend money, not mismanage their money. They wouldn't be out-bidding anyone.

The league has now adopted a salary floor which I think will further improve the checks and balances systems they have in place. I'm arguing for parity here, not player oppression.