What I would give for o line talent.

[RamFan503]

As far as calling a Rams leader a "poser"? Sigh. If you have an opinion on JL55 go ahead and post a respectful thread about him with some facts backing you up. But maybe you want to read some past posts about it first, since the discussion has been done many times here. If you have something new to add to the discussion I'm all for it -- but I'm not for disrespectful name calling of Rams players.

This^^^ ALL of this.

And look at it this way when we drafted tree and brought in dunbar (before he got suspended) both over shadowed jl55s performance on the field didn't they?

Um... no. Dunbar has never overshadowed JL's performance and Tree came on to lead in tackles but he plays a completely different LB position. I'm ok with Tree being more talented potentially. That doesn't mean JL is a problem. And though I hate this fact, where is Tree now? Tree has not exactly been the poster child for staying healthy. I love his aggression and play for the most part but thinking he has surpassed JL in overall play IMO is a mistake. JL had a bad game against WA. I think we all saw that. Not a whole lot of players had a good game that day.

But he had a pretty good opener and has played really well the last two games. Being that no one played very well in the WA game besides maybe Tree, I find it hard to single out the guy with the most on his plate as the one to get rid of.

Then everyone that's on the dl (starters) maybe besides brockers have over shadowed long.... the proof is there.

Overshadowed? Proof? Name a team where BOTH DEs get to the QB more. Our DEs have combined for 6 sacks and I believe that is the most among DEs in the entire league. He is a key part in a defense that has held some pretty damn good offenses to just a few TDs this season. He's not a stat magnet but he is a vital cog in that defense.

Trim the fat (contracts), long won't be here next year and jl55 replacement will be drafted or maybe already on the roster. That Hager guy is what jl55 used to be as far as sideline to sideline tackling and speed but he brings that boom when he hits

Please. How many times have we seen pre-season studs turn out to be nothing more than role players. If Hager can unseat JL then fine. But thinking because he played well against players that are sitting at home watching the games like the rest of us has never been a very good gauge of the value of a player in reality.

 

[NateDawg122]

This^^^ ALL of this.


Um... no. Dunbar has never overshadowed JL's performance and Tree came on to lead in tackles but he plays a completely different LB position. I'm ok with Tree being more talented potentially. That doesn't mean JL is a problem. And though I hate this fact, where is Tree now? Tree has not exactly been the poster child for staying healthy. I love his aggression and play for the most part but thinking he has surpassed JL in overall play IMO is a mistake. JL had a bad game against WA. I think we all saw that. Not a whole lot of players had a good game that day.

But he had a pretty good opener and has played really well the last two games. Being that no one played very well in the WA game besides maybe Tree, I find it hard to single out the guy with the most on his plate as the one to get rid of.


Overshadowed? Proof? Name a team where BOTH DEs get to the QB more. Our DEs have combined for 6 sacks and I believe that is the most among DEs in the entire league. He is a key part in a defense that has held some pretty damn good offenses to just a few TDs this season. He's not a stat magnet but he is a vital cog in that defense.


Please. How many times have we seen pre-season studs turn out to be nothing more than role players. If Hager can unseat JL then fine. But thinking because he played well against players that are sitting at home watching the games like the rest of us has never been a very good gauge of the value of a player in reality.

1. Alec Ogletree is WAY better than JL55, it's not even close. I'm not just talking from a talent standpoint either, he was better than James in every game this year until he got hurt.
2. As for Long and the DEs, name me another DE duo that has talent like Donald, Brockers, and Fairley taking up blocks on the inside. The DT talent is making Long's job way easier than it naturally would be. He's a good player, but I don't think he's a ton better than a guy like Hayes.

 

[Akrasian]

If you can trade sam bradford, a guy that was hurt for 2 straight seasons and never has been healthy even when healthy had question marks about his game, why wouldn't we get anything for them?

And look at it this way when we drafted tree and brought in dunbar (before he got suspended) both over shadowed jl55s performance on the field didn't they? Then everyone that's on the dl (starters) maybe besides brockers have over shadowed long.... the proof is there. Trim the fat (contracts), long won't be here next year and jl55 replacement will be drafted or maybe already on the roster. That Hager guy is what jl55 used to be as far as sideline to sideline tackling and speed but he brings that boom when he hits

Bradford was traded for by a HC who has made it plain he will dump anybody on the team who he thinks doesn't quite fit into what he wants. He didn't want Foles, so he traded Foles for a guy with the potential for being a star - a LOT of people (including a former college HC who is enamored with what worked in college) think Bradford can still be a star at the most important position.

I'm not sure how JL's performance has been overshadowed. At all. He is basically the QB of the defense, adjusting the defense as necessary - and has done a very good job at it, while getting a lot of tackles. He's not a huge star, but you're acting like he's trash, and that's just not the case.

Long pressures the QB repeatedly, keeping them from having much leeway to avoid Donald and Quinn, and still getting some sacks. Citing that he is at best the third best player on the DL isn't criticizing his play - the two players clearly ahead of him are both Pro Bowl or better players. But players as good as JL and Long are NOT easily replaced. So trading them would significantly hurt the defense. And if you were correct that they were trash, then they wouldn't have any trade value, given their ages and contracts. Fortunately they ARE good players still, and important to the Rams' defense.

 

[RamFan503]

1. Alec Ogletree is WAY better than JL55, it's not even close. I'm not just talking from a talent standpoint either, he was better than James in every game this year until he got hurt.

Not if Alec was asked to play MLB. If JL went down and Alec stepped in at MLB and played better you would probably have a case. But does anyone think Tree would be better at MLB or that JL would be better at OLB than Tree? I doubt it. Is Tree more athletic and faster than JL? Sure. Could he replace JL at MLB? Very doubtful. The Rams played pretty damn well without Tree when he went out in the AZ game. In fact, I'd say they didn't really miss a beat. The LB corps also played pretty well in the GB game.

2. As for Long and the DEs, name me another DE duo that has talent like Donald, Brockers, and Fairley taking up blocks on the inside. The DT talent is making Long's job way easier than it naturally would be. He's a good player, but I don't think he's a ton better than a guy like Hayes.

Name another DT duo that has Long and Quinn pressuring on the outside. In fact, name another NT that has a tandem like our DEs.

We saw what our D-line looked like with Hayes playing in place of Long last season. Hayes could (by many analysts opinion) start for many NFL teams. Saying Long is only marginally better than Hayes should not diminish the play of Long. More so - Hayes is a pretty damn good back-up.

The fact is that Long is playing better than the majority of DEs in the game - starting or otherwise, LDE or RDE. Replacing a key member of the defense because he is not a probowler is really short sighted. There are lots of teams with pretty damn good D-lines. Take one of their starters off of that line and there will be a serious drop off. The Rams D-line is no different. Put Hayes in there as starter and you would see a serious drop off. We actually know that.

If you can upgrade any position, I'd say do it. But you also have to have an improvement available and a rationale to how that improvement is the right improvement for your team overall. I don't care if you can name half the RDEs in the league and say they are playing better than CLong (which you can't). What are you gaining as a team - and where - by replacing him?

 

[lockdnram21]

I'm officially on that wagon now that Gurley & Tavon are wrecking opposing DLines & LB's.
Meanwhile, opposing DB's are in cruise control.

we dont need a wr. Quick and Bailey need to play more. if line dont block dont matter who at wr if foles is pressured and makes bad decisions

 

[NateDawg122]

Not if Alec was asked to play MLB. If JL went down and Alec stepped in at MLB and played better you would probably have a case. But does anyone think Tree would be better at MLB or that JL would be better at OLB than Tree? I doubt it. Is Tree more athletic and faster than JL? Sure. Could he replace JL at MLB? Very doubtful. The Rams played pretty damn well without Tree when he went out in the AZ game. In fact, I'd say they didn't really miss a beat. The LB corps also played pretty well in the GB game.



Name another DT duo that has Long and Quinn pressuring on the outside. In fact, name another NT that has a tandem like our DEs.

We saw what our D-line looked like with Hayes playing in place of Long last season. Hayes could (by many analysts opinion) start for many NFL teams. Saying Long is only marginally better than Hayes should not diminish the play of Long. More so - Hayes is a pretty damn good back-up.

The fact is that Long is playing better than the majority of DEs in the game - starting or otherwise, LDE or RDE. Replacing a key member of the defense because he is not a probowler is really short sighted. There are lots of teams with pretty damn good D-lines. Take one of their starters off of that line and there will be a serious drop off. The Rams D-line is no different. Put Hayes in there as starter and you would see a serious drop off. We actually know that.

If you can upgrade any position, I'd say do it. But you also have to have an improvement available and a rationale to how that improvement is the right improvement for your team overall. I don't care if you can name half the RDEs in the league and say they are playing better than CLong (which you can't). What are you gaining as a team - and where - by replacing him?

You forget that Ogletree played MLB his entire college career and earned All-SEC honors doing so. He has the size, sideline to sideline speed, and overall athletic ability to be a a very successful MLB in the NFL. I personally think the only reason the Rams have him playing OLB is because of his ability to rush the passer and they want to keep JL55 in the starting lineup.

The Rams definitely have a great overall defensive line, but there are other DTs and DT duos that have similar talent around them. The Bills, Ravens, Texans, Chiefs, Seahawks, and Dolphins come to mind.

The original point is that if the Rams did trade Long the drop-off from him to Hayes is very small and therfore makes trading him more reasonable. A small drop-off from one DE position would be worth a significant upgrade in the WR corps or along the offensive line.

 

[Alan]

Akrasian demonstrating his inability to keep things on a we need to do something drastic soon or we're doomed footing:
Not that I think it's true - JL and Chris Long are important for this defense. But since they're expensive and aging, if they really do suck as some seem to think, the Rams can't really expect anything of value for them in trade.

Back for only a few hours and already I have to berate someone for trying to introduce some logic in a thread. I'm starting to think coming back this week was a mistake.

 

[blue4]

Oh good we're back to bashing JL and CL. Despite the fact that JL has played some excellent football this year he still sucks and we should get rid of him. Whatever. Putting too much stock in how fast a guy runs in practice is a major reason why we have had so many players playing for us who are just "potential" instead of contributors. And why do we assume these two are slow and unskilled anyway? Because they don't look like Robert Quinn? Only a couple other players in the entire league look like Quinn, so how the hell are we going to get another one? I'm not seeing a lot of other MLBers staying on the field every down and just snot knocking RBs and then being as graceful as a swan covering TEs down the field so why do we expect that from JL?

 

[NateDawg122]

Oh good we're back to bashing JL and CL. Despite the fact that JL has played some excellent football this year he still sucks and we should get rid of him. Whatever. Putting too much stock in how fast a guy runs in practice is a major reason why we have had so many players playing for us who are just "potential" instead of contributors. And why do we assume these two are slow and unskilled anyway? Because they don't look like Robert Quinn? Only a couple other players in the entire league look like Quinn, so how the hell are we going to get another one? I'm not seeing a lot of other MLBers staying on the field every down and just snot knocking RBs and then being as graceful as a swan covering TEs down the field so why do we expect that from JL?

Show one post in this entire thread where someone said JL sucks. Go on.

 

[blue4]

Show one post in this entire thread where someone said JL sucks. Go on.

It's based on a wealth of past history.

 

[Tron]

You forget that Ogletree played MLB his entire college career

Actually played at safety his freshman year, was moved to MLB for final two years. Not nitpicking, just letting you know. Was one of the reasons why he was so effective. Had size of a lb but speed and quickness of a safety.

 

[RamFan503]

You forget that Ogletree played MLB his entire college career and earned All-SEC honors doing so. He has the size, sideline to sideline speed, and overall athletic ability to be a a very successful MLB in the NFL. I personally think the only reason the Rams have him playing OLB is because of his ability to rush the passer and they want to keep JL55 in the starting lineup.

The Rams definitely have a great overall defensive line, but there are other DTs and DT duos that have similar talent around them. The Bills, Ravens, Texans, Chiefs, Seahawks, and Dolphins come to mind.

The original point is that if the Rams did trade Long the drop-off from him to Hayes is very small and therfore makes trading him more reasonable. A small drop-off from one DE position would be worth a significant upgrade in the WR corps or along the offensive line.

OK - wait a minute. Didn't Alec come out of a 3-4 in Georgia where he played SS THEN ILB? A wee bit different than asking him to play MLB AND call the defensive alignments in the NFL. Alec has had 2 sacks in the time JL had 1 and JL actually should have a second if not for a penalty IIRR. JL also has a forced fumble, an interception, and 2 pass defenses.

Last year JL had 3.5 sacks to Tree's ZERO. How is it that the Rams have him at OLB for his pass rushing skills? They have him there for exactly what he has been doing for us. He's an active, chase LB that can create opportunities for a defense. He is not all that great at shedding blocks and is not stout at the point of contact. He is a very good player in his role. He is not a better option at MLB than JL.

So while I wouldn't discount Tree's abilities, I'm not one to think handing him the keys to the defense is a great idea either. Maybe McDonald could call the defense but I'm not too sure he does as good of a job as what we are seeing out of JL. There is WAY more to what JL does than just athleticism. Aside from the WA game, he has done a phenomenal job of setting up the defense. Is Tree going to do that? Being that Tree is no longer active, where would that put us?

I'll buy that you have watched much more of Alec in college but even you have to admit that he was never considered a thumper or a 4-3 MLB. He was a very athletic ILB and one many said would not even translate to an ILB in the NFL - let alone a MLB.

If what you are saying is true, why have the Rams not actually used Tree that much in rushing the passer. Instead he has been a cover guy on TEs and a shadow on the likes of Wilson, while being a free range tackler out there.

As far as D-line goes. You take any one of the teams you mentioned and C Long is easily the third best lineman on the team and on most of them is the second best lineman. I'm not talking about hype like we saw after the first game of the season by Buffalo or what everyone expected out of KC and Seattle. I'm talking reality. There is probably not a better second DE on any team in the NFL than Chris Long. If there is, then name him.

 

[RamFan503]

Actually played at safety his freshman year, was moved to MLB for final two years. Not nitpicking, just letting you know. Was one of the reasons why he was so effective. Had size of a lb but speed and quickness of a safety.

Actually that would be safety then ILB. MLB to ILB would be like comparing a Donald to a Haloti Nata - great players - completely different roles.

 

[Tron]

Actually that would be safety then ILB. MLB to ILB would be like comparing a Donald to a Haloti Nata - great players - completely different roles.

Semantics......But thank you for correcting me. Didnt think about them being a 3-4, which would make better since to move him from safety to 3-4 ILB than to a 4-3 MLB.

 

[KARL BAKER]

....and dickpunch myself on youtube....

..
Which reminds me of the Movie Bad Santa....
..

.
I laughed SO HARD !!!

 

[NateDawg122]

OK - wait a minute. Didn't Alec come out of a 3-4 in Georgia where he played SS THEN ILB? A wee bit different than asking him to play MLB AND call the defensive alignments in the NFL. Alec has had 2 sacks in the time JL had 1 and JL actually should have a second if not for a penalty IIRR. JL also has a forced fumble, an interception, and 2 pass defenses.

Last year JL had 3.5 sacks to Tree's ZERO. How is it that the Rams have him at OLB for his pass rushing skills? They have him there for exactly what he has been doing for us. He's an active, chase LB that can create opportunities for a defense. He is not all that great at shedding blocks and is not stout at the point of contact. He is a very good player in his role. He is not a better option at MLB than JL.

So while I wouldn't discount Tree's abilities, I'm not one to think handing him the keys to the defense is a great idea either. Maybe McDonald could call the defense but I'm not too sure he does as good of a job as what we are seeing out of JL. There is WAY more to what JL does than just athleticism. Aside from the WA game, he has done a phenomenal job of setting up the defense. Is Tree going to do that? Being that Tree is no longer active, where would that put us?

I'll buy that you have watched much more of Alec in college but even you have to admit that he was never considered a thumper or a 4-3 MLB. He was a very athletic ILB and one many said would not even translate to an ILB in the NFL - let alone a MLB.

If what you are saying is true, why have the Rams not actually used Tree that much in rushing the passer. Instead he has been a cover guy on TEs and a shadow on the likes of Wilson, while being a free range tackler out there.

As far as D-line goes. You take any one of the teams you mentioned and C Long is easily the third best lineman on the team and on most of them is the second best lineman. I'm not talking about hype like we saw after the first game of the season by Buffalo or what everyone expected out of KC and Seattle. I'm talking reality. There is probably not a better second DE on any team in the NFL than Chris Long. If there is, then name him.

You don't think Ogletree can stop the run as a MLB? Do me a favor, go watch Ogletree's highlights against Alabama in the 2012 SEC championship game. He stopped Eddie Lacy dead in his tracks at the goal line even though Lacy had a running start and Tree didn't. He also threw T.J. Yeldon around like a rag doll. Tree has no problem taking on runners. He's stronger and faster than JL, especially this year now that he's got his body right.

Another thing, and I don't have anything against Long, but I don't think he cracks the starting rotation at Buffalo. I just don't see it. Honestly, who does he beat out between Mario Williams and Jerry Hughes? Those guys are on a different level than Long is.

 

[RamFan503]

You don't think Ogletree can stop the run as a MLB? Do me a favor, go watch Ogletree's highlights against Alabama in the 2012 SEC championship game. He stopped Eddie Lacy dead in his tracks at the goal line even though Lacy had a running start and Tree didn't. He also threw T.J. Yeldon around like a rag doll. Tree has no problem taking on runners. He's stronger and faster than JL, especially this year now that he's got his body right.

Another thing, and I don't have anything against Long, but I don't think he cracks the starting rotation at Buffalo. I just don't see it. Honestly, who does he beat out between Mario Williams and Jerry Hughes? Those guys are on a different level than Long is.

As a DE in a 4-3, I'd take Long over Hughes any day of the week.

And taking on a RB here and there at the point of contact is far different than that being your bread and butter while calling the alignments. Saw JL do that plenty while playing for Ohio State. I really like Tree. But as an actual MLB? Not so much. We think he gets nicked up now? What do you think it would be like if he were having to play hole stuffer along the LOS among the big bodies?

 

[NateDawg122]

As a DE in a 4-3, I'd take Long over Hughes any day of the week.

And taking on a RB here and there at the point of contact is far different than that being your bread and butter while calling the alignments. Saw JL do that plenty while playing for Ohio State. I really like Tree. But as an actual MLB? Not so much. We think he gets nicked up now? What do you think it would be like if he were having to play hole stuffer along the LOS among the big bodies?

1. You're crazy. I would trade Long for Hughes in a heartbeat. Hughes is NFL top 100 material. Long isn't.
2. Tree didn't have a problem with those assignments in college and he was the leader on defense. I get where you're coming from but Tree is not a dumb guy, he could call the plays on defense if given time in that role. Besides, JL isn't exactly the king of winning at the LOS.

 

[RamFan503]

Do me a favor, go watch Ogletree's highlights against Alabama in the 2012 SEC championship game.

BTW - as with all high draft choices of the Rams, I looked at everything I could get my hands on as far as tape on Tree. So yeah - I watched that tape as well as several other games like the Georgia Tech game where he was getting blown out of the middle on several plays. It didn't mean I didn't like him as a player - just that he wasn't showing he was very stout inside.

 

[SuperMan28]

Guys, I know we had a dam good opportunity to be the best team in the NFC, but please dick punch yourselves just for the sake of moping like a bunch of ninnies. Seriously, am I one of the few Ram fans that didn't take that loss hard? Maybe I just coped better.

And what's all this about slaying our OL and WR's??? Season is not over. In fact it's not even half over. Don't you think, just maybe, they have some time to get it ironed out?????? No??? Then continue.