Watkins/Clowney Caged Match With Comps

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Ramifications

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I'm not going to include the OL for now, though of course Robinson or Matthews could very well be the pick (at 1.2,1.4, ?) and very good ones at that, IMO.

It can be hard to wrap our minds around expectations with Clowney, who could be a generational talent, or a bust if he has motor and hustle issues, doesn't have the passion for the game or desire to be great, and isn't able to slide by on his talent in the NFL.

BTW, others can feel free to sub their own comps, and suggest other pairing involving the OL, but IMO two at a time or it could get a little chaotic, like a WWE Battle Royal.

While Clowney could the greatest DE ever, let's set our sights a little lower, but still far higher than a bust. He is two DEs he is commonly compared to, the last two elite, blue chip prospects at the position (remember J.J Watt wasn't, he evolved into a monster as a pro), Julius Peppers and Mario Williams (who has been inconsistent at times, Peppers less so).

The best comp I have come up with for Watkins in approx size and talent and match for expected career arc and trajectory IMO, is Roddy White. Since I used two comps above, due to use on WR screens and track star explosiveness, let's say Watkins is like a taller Percy Harvin better equipped to fulfill a complete WR role (SEA signed him to a contract that pays him like a top 5 WR in 2013).

Do the same people that liked Clowney still favor Peppers/Williams due to the value of the position, and the same people that liked Watkins best still favor White/Harvin, due to DE seemingly not being a compelling need if the respective grade and value is close?
 
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BonifayRam

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I think Jadeveon could be better than both as far as what I have see AT TIMES from him on the field.

I sorry about anything I could come up with Sammy the wide out I gave up play watching & slobbering over play toys back in the early 60's.
 

Ramifications

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I think Jadeveon could be better than both as far as what I have see AT TIMES from him on the field.

I sorry about anything I could come up with Sammy the wide out I gave up play watching & slobbering over play toys back in the early 60's.

Agreed, but he could also be worse, which is what motivated splitting the difference. He is an extremely polarizing, divisive figure for a reason, and it isn't due to his athleticism or natural talent.
 

BonifayRam

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Agreed, but he could also be worse, which is what motivated splitting the difference. He is an extremely polarizing, divisive figure for a reason, and it isn't due to his athleticism or natural talent.
Both but I agree he does not demonstrate it all that often its a bit of a turn off but heck i can not deny it. I just look at it this way and I could be wrong here Ramifications but I think that if you place him on the playing field with a Rob, Chris, William & others that the type of talent he has is going to be ignited! He would simply raise his game just to compete with the other DL'ers in a GW defense!
 

jrry32

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The question for me is...do I believe that Waufle and Fisher are capable of getting Clowney to play up to his potential? And I believe they can. So my choice is Clowney.
 

Ramifications

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Getting back to the premise, if we stipulated he becomes Peppers/Williams for our purposes, would you rather have him or White/Harvin (taller)?
 

Ramifications

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The question for me is...do I believe that Waufle and Fisher are capable of getting Clowney to play up to his potential? And I believe they can. So my choice is Clowney.

Got it. But just as a hypothetical, they raise it partly, but not all the way... to a Peppers/Williams level?
 

BonifayRam

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Getting back to the premise, if we stipulated he becomes Peppers/Williams for our purposes, would you rather have him or White/Harvin (taller)?
I take Jadeveon hands down. I have learned a lot from the youngster jrry32 over the yrs now & on this Jadeveon I just about agree with him fully.
 

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I take Jadeveon hands down. I have learned a lot from the youngster jrry32 over the yrs now & on this Jadeveon I just about agree with him fully.

If the speculative scenario of the coaching staff getting him to play harder plays out and he becomes the greatest DE in NFL history, no brainer. I'm not assuming that, thus the Peppers/Williams comp. If you don't want to entertain the premise spelled out here that is fine. Simply restating that you think he will be better than them falls into the category of information we already possess... a few times! :^)
 

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Got it. But just as a hypothetical, they raise it partly, but not all the way... to a Peppers/Williams level?

Julius Peppers is a fringe HOFer. Mario Williams is one of the game's best 4-3 DEs. I'd be quite happy with the pick if we got that sort of player.
 

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If the speculative scenario of the coaching staff getting him to play harder plays out and he becomes the greatest DE in NFL history, no brainer. I'm not assuming that, thus the Peppers/Williams comp. If you don't want to entertain the premise spelled out here that is fine. Simply restating that you think he will be better than them falls into the category of information we already possess... a few times! :^)

I entertained your Peppers/Williams comp and I gave you my answer I still favor Peppers/Williams due to the value of the position.
 

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Julius Peppers is a fringe HOFer. Mario Williams is one of the game's best 4-3 DEs. I'd be quite happy with the pick if we got that sort of player.

I agree with much of that, I might put the emphasis on fringe with Peppers. Williams has been maddeningly inconsistent (6 sacks in four games, sackless for a month, will go a few games without even a tackle), I'd be happy about Peppers, thrilled, actually, Williams would give me pause.

Given your respective positional valuation, I expected this. I don't disagree with it, per se, WRs don't touch the ball as much as a DE can impact a game on nearly every play (like a QB and LT), in theory. My biggest issues with Clowney are his inconsistent effort, the fact that we might have the best DE tandem in the league already, and the WR (and LTs) are good prospects in their own right, and IMO don't come with the same attendant effort concerns (I've seen the exchanges with RFIP where you point out Watkins had a poor second year, might be arbitrary on my part, but the fact that Watkins finished strongly and Clowney didn't weighs more heavily in my mind, also, by the numbers, not sure if you pointed out only one of two of Clowney's seasons were good by conventional metrics, whereas two of Watkins three were, superior demonstrable effort on a percentage basis).

If Calvin Johnson was in this class (he isn't, Watkins isn't that), I would take him in a heart beat over Clowney.
 
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jap

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Wauffle and The Fisher King notwithstanding, it is difficult for me to imagine a proud young man like Jadeveon watch two Energizer Bunnies like Chris Long and The Mighty One without getting seriously juiced!!!
 

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I entertained your Peppers/Williams comp and I gave you my answer I still favor Peppers/Williams due to the value of the position.

Maybe I misunderstood you. In your very first post (#2), you said you thought he could be better than both, I was going by that. You also concurred with Jerry (who was clear in making the distinction), so in that sense I see what you mean.
 

jrry32

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I agree with much of that, I might put the emphasis on fringe with Peppers. Williams has been maddeningly inconsistent (6 sacks in four games, sackless for a month, will go a few games without even a tackle), I'd be happy about Peppers, thrilled, actually, Williams would give me pause.

If Calvin Johnson was in this class (he isn't, Watkins isn't that), I would take him in a heart beat over Clowney.

I would too with Calvin.

Williams wouldn't give me pause. Guy is very arguably a top 5 player at his position. If not, he's top 10 at worst. If you're coming away with players like that year after year, you're going to be successful.

Given your respective positional valuation, I expected this. I don't disagree with it, per se, WRs don't touch the ball as much as a DE can impact a game on nearly every play (like a QB and LT), in theory. My biggest issues with Clowney are his inconsistent effort, the fact that we might have the best DE tandem in the league already, and the WR (and LTs) are good prospects in their own right, and IMO don't come with the same attendant effort concerns (I've seen the exchanges with RFIP where you point out Watkins had a poor second year, might be arbitrary on my part, but the fact that Watkins finished strongly and Clowney didn't weighs more heavily in my mind, also, by the numbers, not sure if you pointed out only one of two of Clowney's seasons were good by conventional metrics, whereas two of Watkins three were, superior demonstrable effort on a percentage basis).

I think that is a bit arbitrary(especially considering his strong games came against inferior opponents while he did very little against South Carolina and was injured after fumbling on the first play of the game against LSU...plus Clowney played quite well in the bowl games against Wisconsin). But that really wasn't the point I was making. The point in that exchange was that people claim that the only thing to blame for Clowney's numbers are his "effort" and that he was dogging it. By bringing up Watkins, I was pointing out that if you used the same logic with him that people use with Clowney, then he must have been dogging it. When the reality was that Watkins wasn't healthy but still played because his presence on the field forced coordinators to account for him and opened things up for teammates even when he couldn't make the play. And his teammate, DeAndre Hopkins, had a monster year.

Well, Clowney did the same thing this year. He was hurt all year but played through it because just being on the field, he made a major impact and it helped DT Kelcy Quarles to be one of the SEC's leading sackers.

Only one of Clowney's seasons were good? As a true freshman, he was top 5 in the SEC in sacks and #1 in fumbles forced. The guy was a big time player as a freshman. As a sophomore, he was arguably the best defensive player in college football.
 

RFIP

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I'm in shock that this is even debatable, if both these guys are on the board I have zero doubt the Rams take Watkins.

Two guys both at the top of their positions, one a need, the other a luxury. And you have to ask yourself what kind of value you get from Clowney if he's not a day 1 starter, which he won't be.

Nah, no way Clowney is a Ram.
 

BonifayRam

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Maybe I misunderstood you. In your very first post (#2), you said you thought he could be better than both, I was going by that. You also concurred with Jerry (who was clear in making the distinction), so in that sense I see what you mean.

Sorry I will never be as clear & as educated as jrry32 you may be asking way too much from this old guy.
 

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I would too with Calvin.

Williams wouldn't give me pause. Guy is very arguably a top 5 player at his position. If not, he's top 10 at worst. If you're coming away with players like that year after year, you're going to be successful.



I think that is a bit arbitrary(especially considering his strong games came against inferior opponents while he did very little against South Carolina and was injured after fumbling on the first play of the game against LSU...plus Clowney played quite well in the bowl games against Wisconsin). But that really wasn't the point I was making. The point in that exchange was that people claim that the only thing to blame for Clowney's numbers are his "effort" and that he was dogging it. By bringing up Watkins, I was pointing out that if you used the same logic with him that people use with Clowney, then he must have been dogging it. When the reality was that Watkins wasn't healthy but still played because his presence on the field forced coordinators to account for him and opened things up for teammates even when he couldn't make the play. And his teammate, DeAndre Hopkins, had a monster year.

Well, Clowney did the same thing this year. He was hurt all year but played through it because just being on the field, he made a major impact and it helped DT Kelcy Quarles to be one of the SEC's leading sackers.

Only one of Clowney's seasons were good? As a true freshman, he was top 5 in the SEC in sacks and #1 in fumbles forced. The guy was a big time player as a freshman. As a sophomore, he was arguably the best defensive player in college football.

I forgot, I was thinking this was Clowney's second year. Of course, he wasn't a redshirt, which is why he had to play a third year, this one.

Clowney had multiple injuries, rib or muscle pull in that area was one, foot was thought to maybe require surgery, but to my knowledge hasn't. He got some bad press when he was supposed to go in a game and pulled out late.

The only thing about begging off a bad year due to injury, is there were times he would flash the effort and explosiveness. But on other plays, he would stand around and not chase down the back side. So I can't tell if it was a case of couldn't or wouldn't on the effort, which is the point for me. I don't like having that fundamental of a question with a really high pick.

Lots of people have questioned his motor, maybe where there is smoke there is fire?

I can't really recall anybody ever questioning Watkins passion for the game and drive?
 

jrry32

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I forgot, I was thinking this was Clowney's second year. Of course, he wasn't a redshirt, which is why he had to play a third year, this one.

Clowney had multiple injuries, rib or muscle pull in that area was one, foot was thought to maybe require surgery, but to my knowledge hasn't. He got some bad press when he was supposed to go in a game and pulled out late.

The only thing about begging off a bad year due to injury, is there were times he would flash the effort and explosiveness. But on other plays, he would stand around and not chase down the back side. So I can't tell if it was a case of couldn't or wouldn't on the effort, which is the point for me. I don't like having that fundamental of a question with a really high pick.

Lots of people have questioned his motor, maybe where there is smoke there is fire?

I can't really recall anybody ever questioning Watkins passion for the game and drive?

Often, there isn't. People questioned Alshon Jeffery's motor. Claimed he quit on plays. I scoffed at the notion. I had seen every game of Alshon's. I've seen every game of Clowney's. It's very much overblown. Clowney's not dogging it.

Sammy Watkins was suspended for being arrested. Clowney has never been arrested or suspended. I'm just saying that neither are saints and people are going to find things to use against their character if they really want to.

There were times in 2012 when Watkins flashes explosiveness and big play capability. If Clowney or Watkins were completely incapable of playing well, they wouldn't be on the field with the injury.

No harm, no foul on thinking this was Clowney's second year. It's all good.