Total defense (yards v points)

[dieterbrock]

OK, now what about the team with more points?

Won every game...

 

[RAMpage28]

Won every game...

CHECK THE NUMBERS AGAIN!

 

[dieterbrock]

CHECK THE NUMBERS AGAIN!

I was just about to edit that!!
The team giving up less points won 5 of the 8!!

 

[dieterbrock]

Least points wins 5 out 8
Least yards wins 2 out of 8

 

[RAMpage28]

Least points wins 5 out 8
Least yards wins 2 out of 8

I was just about to edit that!!
The team giving up less points won 5 of the 8!!

I'll believe you... for now.

 

[dieterbrock]

I'll believe you... for now.

I answered too quick, and then thought about it, so I looked it up. Baltimore, Green Bay and Pittsburgh each scored less points against

 

[RAMpage28]

I answered too quick, and then thought about it, so I looked it up. Baltimore, Green Bay and Pittsburgh each scored less points against

I was initially joking about points scored in the one particular game and now we are here.

What a journey.

 

[bwdenverram]

Answer this then: two teams, one gives up 375 yards per game and 18 points per game, the other gives ups 310 yards per game and 20 points per game

Which one do you think is going to give up the fewer amount of points 9 times out of 10?

Remember, the argument isn't that yards per game aren't predictive. The argument is that defensive points per game allowed is a better stat for measuring defensive performance.

P.S. the Rams ranked #9 in 2015 and #5 in 2014 in DPPG Allowed while ranking nowhere near the top 10 yards per game allowed. When are we going to reach the point of them not holding?

I'd say that's pretty easy. Show me one team that gives up 375 yards and only 18 PPG...dont' think you'll find that. Not that I see anyway.And I don't see a team that gives up 20 PPG and only 310 yards.

See, I gave you actual stats from actual teams. I think you're making up a scenario to meet your agenda.
Show me real teams with those kind of numbers.. I'll wait my man..

 

[jrry32]

I'd say that's pretty easy. Show me one team that gives up 375 yards and only 18 PPG...dont' think you'll find that. Not that I see anyway.And I don't see a team that gives up 20 PPG and only 310 yards.

See, I gave you actual stats from actual teams. I think you're making up a scenario to meet your agenda.
Show me real teams with those kind of numbers.. I'll wait my man..

Rams gave up 367.8 yards per game (23rd) and only 18.8 points per game (9th). The Cardinals gave up 333.8 yards per game (7th) and 20.6 points per game (13th). Which 2015 defense are you taking?

Here's the real scenario you asked for.

 

[dieterbrock]

Ok, how about this?
Baltimore's defense was terrible last year, giving up 23.1 offensive ppg which was 21st in the league but 8th overall in yards per game at 337 per
Or better yet,
Tampa Bay (Which Case Keenum has his only good half against) had an awful defense giving up 24.6 PPG for 27th in the league.
But by yards? #10 at 340 per

 

[bwdenverram]

Rams gave up 367.8 yards per game (23rd) and only 18.8 points per game (9th). The Cardinals gave up 333.8 yards per game (7th) and 20.6 points per game (13th). Which 2015 defense are you taking?

Here's the real scenario you asked for.

Using whatever data your using makes it work I suppose. But using the metrics that everyone else in the world uses no, those numbers are incorrect.

Sorry, this is a no win discussion really. You want to use data only you use to back up what your saying. There is no argument then. But if you use this link (which is the same for every publication there is then it's what I already outlined.
But I'm sure you'll tell me your data is correct and what's published to the rest of the world doesn't count or whatever reasoning you want to use. Arizona's defense was statistically better then ours. You won't convince me or anyone that looks at actual, all encompassing rankings otherwise.


http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense

 

[jrry32]

Using whatever data your using makes it work I suppose. But using the metrics that everyone else in the world uses no, those numbers are incorrect.

Sorry, this is a no win discussion really. You want to use data only you use to back up what your saying. There is no argument then. But if you use this link (which is the same for every publication there is then it's what I already outlined.
But I'm sure you'll tell me your data is correct and what's published to the rest of the world doesn't count or whatever reasoning you want to use. Arizona's defense was statistically better then ours. You won't convince me or anyone that looks at actual, all encompassing rankings otherwise.


http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense

Okay. So you're taking the defense that gave up 1.8 more points per game? That's what you're saying?

I use the data that makes logical sense from my understanding of football. I use the data that ranks defenses based on how many points they gave up. If other people don't find that data to be valuable, they don't know anything about football and their opinions are best to be disregarded entirely.

My numbers are correct. They only factor in the points given up by the defense. They factor out special teams TDs, defensive TDs by the other team, and safeties. If you think it doesn't make sense to judge a defense solely by the points they gave up, well, enough said.

But I guess you can tell me I'm wrong because you're lazy and want to use the raw data that ESPN gives you. You can't justify your position with logic. You can only say, "Well, everyone else does it."

 

[bwdenverram]

Okay. So you're taking the defense that gave up 1.8 more points per game? That's what you're saying?

I use the data that makes logical sense from my understanding of football. I use the data that ranks defenses based on how many points they gave up. If other people don't find that data to be valuable, they don't know anything about football and their opinions are best to be disregarded entirely.

My numbers are correct. They only factor in the points given up by the defense. They factor out special teams TDs, defensive TDs by the other team, and safeties. If you think it doesn't make sense to judge a defense solely by the points they gave up, well, enough said.

But I guess you can tell me I'm wrong because you're lazy and want to use the raw data that ESPN gives you. You can't justify your position with logic. You can only say, "Well, everyone else does it."

Two things- (1) Don't put words in my mouth. I said statistically they were better. I never said I'd take them over us. I wouldn't. (2) You keep saying metrics you use and believe in. That's great, but don't attack me because I use what most normal people use. You don't like it, fine, but don't attack me. You do enough of that on this board as is. It's pretty clear from reading this thread and most of the threads you are in you are never wrong and you will argue your side until blue in the face. This whole stupid argument started because of one statement you made. One in which the only stat to back it up is one you use. Forget what anyone else uses or what anyone else thinks. It's your opinion and that's it.
I get it. I'm done man. This is why I don't get into these debates. Some can see others opinions, some only value there own. All good, I'm onto our team and other positive things. Enjoy the season.

 

[dieterbrock]

Using whatever data your using makes it work I suppose. But using the metrics that everyone else in the world uses no, those numbers are incorrect.

Sorry, this is a no win discussion really. You want to use data only you use to back up what your saying. There is no argument then. But if you use this link (which is the same for every publication there is then it's what I already outlined.
But I'm sure you'll tell me your data is correct and what's published to the rest of the world doesn't count or whatever reasoning you want to use. Arizona's defense was statistically better then ours. You won't convince me or anyone that looks at actual, all encompassing rankings otherwise.


http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense

Ok, using your data, I'll ask you a question.
Would you rather give up 340 yards per game, and 26.1 points or 363 yards a game and only 19.9?

 

[jrry32]

Two things- (1) Don't put words in my mouth. I said statistically they were better. I never said I'd take them over us. I wouldn't. (2) You keep saying metrics you use and believe in. That's great, but don't attack me because I use what most normal people use. You don't like it, fine, but don't attack me. You do enough of that on this board as is. It's pretty clear from reading this thread and most of the threads you are in you are never wrong and you will argue your side until blue in the face. This whole stupid argument started because of one statement you made. One in which the only stat to back it up is one you use. Forget what anyone else uses or what anyone else thinks. It's your opinion and that's it.
I get it. I'm done man. This is why I don't get into these debates. Some can see others opinions, some only value there own. All good, I'm onto our team and other positive things. Enjoy the season.

You're arguing semantics now. You can't simultaneously claim that they're better and then tell us that you won't take them. It's nonsensical.

You either believe they are better or you don't. Don't hide behind other people using ESPN's stats as the gospel. That doesn't matter. I'm talking about my opinion. You're talking about yours. If you wouldn't take Arizona's defense over ours based on those numbers then say it.(which you now did) Don't punt the ball to someone else.

Problem here is that you said statistically better. DPPG Allowed is a stat. Just like yards per game allowed. So by one measure, they are better. By the other measure, they are worse. Which is the better measure to use? That's the debate.

You're right. This whole stupid argument started because of a statement I made. A statement that I backed up with evidence. Evidence you haven't been able to successfully undermine. I told you the Rams were a top 10 defense last year. You said they weren't. I showed you evidence that they were top 10 in Defensive Points Per Game Allowed. You said that's not what you customarily use to rank defenses. I said it's a better measure. You said that other people don't use it. I said that they should. You said that they don't.

That sums up the argument. I used a measure that I believe is the most accurate for ranking defenses. You don't disagree that it is the most valuable measure. You only opine that most other people don't use it. That's all fine and dandy but that doesn't make those people's opinions accurate or what I said inaccurate.

Have a good night.

 

[RAMpage28]

Man, this debate got out of hand.

Points > yards.

 

[Ellard80]

Man, this debate got out of hand.

Points > yards.

Oh.. duh us.... those two sentences just convinced everyone....

 

[Ellard80]

Also.... as stated many times...

Most teams that give up less yards give up less points... so they tend to be related to each other in high correlation.

There are always anomalies but if you look at the rankings its... like... very straightforward.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense

I'd say pts/yards per drive is also an excellent measurement.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/drivestatsdef2015

I do agree that the Rams defense it not fair to base on yards alone...

 

[RAMpage28]

Oh.. duh us.... those two sentences just convinced everyone....

Oh, I'm not here to end the debate or set people straight, and act like some prophet. I'm just throwing my opinion out there and running away, like the brave hero I am.

 

[RAMpage28]

Also.... as stated many times...

Most teams that give up less yards give up less points... so they tend to be related to each other in high correlation.

There are always anomalies but if you look at the rankings its... like... very straightforward.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense

I'd say pts/yards per drive is also an excellent measurement.

The per drive stats are useful, I agree.

All I'm saying is, if someone tells me to judge a defense by one of two raw stats, yards allowed per game or points allowed per game, I'm picking points allowed per game no doubt.