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Tim Walton Out

Discussion in 'RAMS - NFL TALK' started by RamEERS, Jan 29, 2014.

  1. Lesson Well-Known Member

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    I'm not really happy with this decision. I don't think Walton was given a fair opportunity with the D, and I think firing him after 1 year is a bit harsh. But what do I know?

    I guess I might be feeling a bit differently if Williams wasn't the one (re)hired.
     
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  2. We have a difference of opinion on a few things, some of which, on scouting matters, are to be expected. But a few fall into a different category.

    In the former case, you find it unlikely he has lost it. Again, if he looks the same this year as last, two years after the nebulous leg injury, would you at that point concede he may not be the same. Or do you need another two years? Three years?

    When you say the following (see 1 & 2 below), I disagree at this point. If he can't play any more, history should mean nothing... you just said the following - "IF he isn't capable of performing, no one is saying he should still be here.".

    I don't know how to reconcile THAT, with point #1, when you don't qualify it. THE ONLY CONSIDERATION or basis for whether he should be retained or not, is his ability to play, NOT history. Oherwise that is contradictory. If he can play, history doesn't matter. If he can't play, history doesn't matter (or shouldn't).

    1) "He and Fisher have to much history, so, as I said before, it wont shock me for him to be brought back."

    Later, after an exchange, you did add this qualifier ("if even for a look at training camp"). That is shifting the boundaries a bit from your previous statement. For me, the default assumption for "brought back" is retained, not having a look see. If you had said that initially, not only I wouldn't have questioned it, but being for it was implied in wanting Fisher to evaluate him to make the right call (though I did qualify it by alluding to the following - "There could be timing issues regarding when would be the best time cut or restructure him, if that is the directon they choose.").

    2) "And yes, the history will have some bearing on whether they bring him back, if even for a look at training camp."

    You said why would they address previous injuries (before the eye), and than, whether there were any or not? Not so fast, lets back up for a moment, because that is imo important enough to table PR talk for later, being a more substantive issue. Upthread you strongly implied thinking he had a lingering leg injury, on the basis of observing him not looking like he "had the jump of what he had the previous year", and radio people comments. Just for the record, for his sake, he better have had a lingering leg issue to explain his horrible performance. That could be cause for optimism. If he didn't have lingering leg injuries issues, that would seem to suggest as a corollary that he has hit the wall and is done (or why else would he have played so badly?).

    Moving on, your PR argument (for not revealing previous injuries) doesn't make sense to me. The reason why it DOES make a difference either way, is that there ALREADY IS A PR STORM. Here we are talking about it and questioning it. Nobody is perfect, I don't think the fans will be calling for Fisher and Snead's head because they made a mistake (in retrospect, he DID make a mistake in not pulling him sooner, and it isn't a big secret, everybody knows it). People are smart enough to figure out for themselves the stated timeline doesn't fit. He was already terrible BEFORE the eye injury. Either he had a lingering leg (or SOME other) injury that caused his poor play, or he is done. IF their intent was to defuse bad PR, I don't agree that there thought process was to withold information from the fans in the hopes that saying nothing would cause less questioning of how they handled it, than if they had just simply said he had a leg injury but thought he could play throuh it, or it worsened durig the season. I don't know about you, but in the absence of any explanation, I'm questioning how they handled it MORE, not less. I might not, or IMO would be less likely to, with an explanation like the above.

    Several times you have mention reasons why Finnegan could be back.

    Young secondary. Again, if he can't play, it is irrelevant. And if he can, he would be back even if it was an intermediate age or old secondary, so age also irrelevant in that case. Now I'll qualify this and say if he can kinda, sorta play, and isn't as good as he was earlier in his career, but is better than the 2013 iteration (low bar there, if he isn't done and did have a lingering leg or some other kind of injury from 2012), than that might recommend having him work with a young secondary as a mentor, and I agree with that scenario. But if he is done, of course not.

    As to Gregg Williams? Again, if he is done, it will be irrelevant. And if is capable of returning to form, than that is why he would be back, not Williams. I don't see how it will have a bearing on or influence their thought process. IMO, he will make the roster based on merit, or he will be cut. You concurred with this, just not sure why be a stickler about the history and TEN connection points. Since you aren't saying he should make the roster even if he doesn't deserve to, than that takes primacy over everything else. Not history or previous connection.
     
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  3. RamFan503 Grill and Brew Master

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    Imma gonna take this as tongue in cheek. I just look at Janoris' rookie season and see how he played. He was a major thorn and his stats showed the play making abilities. I can't imagine he liked playing 'prevent' all season long last year.
     
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  4. fancents86 Well-Known Member

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    time to let the TRUE best CB's in the game do their thing! Williams needs to unleash Jenkins and Johnson!
     
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  5. A55VA6 Shutdown Corner

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    Definitely. I think Williams coming in will help these corners a lot, especially Jenkins.
     
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  6. RamFan503 Grill and Brew Master

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    Honestly - what do any of us know except what we witnessed? What we witnessed was a D with mostly the same key players plus at least one dynamic rookie. I personally was very unhappy with the results even though we supposedly hadn't changed anything but a little nomenclature. We should have improved last year - not taken a real and obvious step back.

    In a normal situation, I might agree with you. But in a situation where you are expected to be one of the top 32 in your field when you get hired and your department takes a step back, you aren't going to get much more than a year if the business really wants to succeed - and I don't care what business that is.

    At least now the guy has DC on his resume.
     
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  7. Thordaddy Binding you with ancient logic

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    :nau:
    Yeah I wuz jokin,mostly ,but IMO Ogletree is gonna thrive in that pressure from everywhere and anywhere opportunities .

    I am glad we have a consensus on Williams,I am warming to the idea,but I have to admit, I didn't expect or really want this to happen,I have pretty well thought the baggage Williams brought along made hiring him after his reinstatement too great a drawback AND overall Williams defenses have not been top five perennially any way.

    I will say though that if we are worried about winning our division we need to improve our defense cuz if we'd been a top five defense we'd probably have been undefeated in divisional play.

    I also think Williams has a shelf life ,we will immediately improve ,but whether it's sustained I'm not sure,I like Williams willingness to take chances,I worry though that he goes to the well too often.

    That said, party on I'm glad people are glad.
     
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  8. jimitroutboy @jimiramsboy

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    Williams has in the past had his greatest success in his first year at every stop in his career.

    His defense does not always protect the back end at the expense of getting to the QB.....but I keep thinking that given the Rams rush prowess that they already have, and his ability to scheme pressure, equals some ungodly even for Odin sack totals.

    There are safeties in this draft that are draftable later than the early two round. TJ McDonald for example has a brother than could be had in the 4th round. CoachO is right, they aren't going to draft a safety in the premium rounds.
     
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  9. Lesson Well-Known Member

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    I recognize that. But if Williams was Fisher's guy all along, why even hire Walton?
     
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  10. flv 

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    Personally i'm just glad we didn't end up with Schwartz. If you have to fire a guy after 1 year it's unusual to hire the guy who recommended him as his replacement.
     
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  11. RamFan503 Grill and Brew Master

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    Not sure. And I get what you're saying. I do wonder if anyone knew at the time if A) Williams would be hirable and B) if Williams would be under contract somewhere else.

    I think he was a bit too much of a hot potato last year (not signed as DC at Tenn) and it would appear that we didn't even release Walton until we knew Williams was available this year. That is just a guess based on timing BTW.
     
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  12. RamFan503 Grill and Brew Master

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    Yeah - as you know, I'm gonna hope for the best and see what he brings to MY Rams. I would so love to see us unleash the dogs to see what happens. Could be so fun to watch QBs tremble ala FF days. There may be no Deacon on this team but I just get the feeling that allowing this front 7 to pin their ears back a little more often will breath new life into their overall game. And when they drop back into coverage, I like the chances of Krap and Mini Mouse throwing the INT across the middle.
     
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  13. Thordaddy Binding you with ancient logic

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    Good to C U jim, hope your birthday was pleasurable.

    I agree this front seven could be his most talented and I am hoping that carries the day,fact is the overall talent may be better so his reliance upon his pressure schemes might scale back and hit that optimal point.
     
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  14. had Well-Known Member

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    I agree.

    (no, I don't like that part about being bound. but I do agree.)

    ***Edited by Orlando Pace.***
     
    #94
  15. As to not getting a premium safety, I'm wondering what some of the assumptions are.

    1 - Fisher drafts exactly like Williams? He did draft Michael Griffin in the first.

    2 - Fisher drafts differently from Williams? In which case, will he draft who Williams requests if he has that kind of input, or will Williams coach who Fisher and Snead provides him with, if they determine a safety in the first or second round is the BPA?

    3 - The player Williams stated was the greatest he ever coached? Top 5 overall pick Sean Taylor (didn't draft him as far as I know, but suggestive he doesn't ding safeties as an intrinsically inferior or not as important position).

    4 - I realize there isn't an Earl Thomas in the draft. But some seem to be saying Williams wouldn't take a safety high regardless (and again, not sure how much this matters, this would seem to be contingent on how much input he has, which I don't think we know in this case?). If there was an Earl Thomas, and he was in a place like the mid-first where he offered compelling value, I'm not convinced Fisher/Snead/Williams categorically would pass up the superior talent (if the draft broke that way, with or without a trade down), and effectively make a reach for a less talented player.
     
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  16. rdlkgliders Hugo Bezdek

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    I have 2 concerns.
    • 1) Do the Ram defensive players draw more ticky tack fouls with Williams at DC since the Saints Bountygate debacle
    • 2) Do the Ram defensive players respond with any apprehension do to Williams player relations reputation
     
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    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 29, 2014
  17. bskrilla Well-Known Member

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    I think it made sense. You hire Walton to fill in for a year and if he blows you away then maybe you consider keeping him on, but he didn't so they went with their original choice.
     
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  18. Rabid Ram Well-Known Member

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    I like the idea behind the Williams hire. Some of Williams best Defenses were with Jeff Fisher. I think they keep each other in a good balance
     
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  19. ChrisW Well-Known Member

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    #2 is probably a non-issue. We didn't see any problem with his short stop in Tennessee. I would think everything would be hashed out at a meet and greet with the players.
     
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  20. brokeu91 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this as well. I think if Williams has too much say he just throws the book at the QB at the expense of letting up some big plays. That has been Williams reputation since becoming a DC outside of Tennessee

    Fisher, I think, will balance that out. Kind of like how the GSOT offense was much more balanced when Vermiel was the head coach. The two balanced each other out well
     
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