This is mind bending.......

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fearsomefour

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Jan 15, 2013
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The "expert" get paid to testify. Thats it. Professional integrity only exist for some. We are talking about a profession (medicine in general) that sees no issue with putting very young children on brain altering drugs as a regular practice. Your hyper? Take this pill. Your sad? Take this pill. You have anxiety? Take this pill. Or better yet, take all three pills. When it comes to treating mental illness the medical complex has become (speaking in general terms) little more than drug pushers. There are some exceptions as there are good doctors and psychiatrists. They are getting harder and harder to find.
Money influences everything, medical treatment, the justice system ect. This particular case is right up there with the twinky defense.
 

BonifayRam

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Jan 14, 2013
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Vernon
the money and resources it takes to inprison every person convicted of non violent or property crime could probably be better spent in other ways.
The reality is most behavior is learned. Hard for people to learn new behaviors, sometimes….it takes determination ect. Not making excuses for people, but, prison is a bad investment of tax dollars for non violent offenders. Bonifay, as someone who worked in the system for decades, what is your take on this? In terms of dealing with people that are not yet repeat offenders, trying to prevent that from occurring?

fearsomefour...sir there is no short simple answer here. This is way too long for a post but it is the best I can just put down for you ......you nor will any other ROD'mer Like to read what I will post. Any way you look at it is going to cost you $ You & I will have to pay for all this mess in our tax payments. My Rx is a very bitter harsh pill to even consider....but codling or pampering these first offenders does not work out well as many uninformed public think. Experience has learned me that non violent or non repeaters are usually future serious offenders..sorry that's just the way it is. So Sad! You can disagree with me but it will not change this fact. Federal US Government stats on this subject are tainted & just false in so many ways... & nobody cares about the mass printed misinformation because the alarms would go off on correctional program failures & the river of tax $$$ that flows into their coffers.

Your statement "prison is a bad investment of tax dollars for non violent offenders" I do not accept your premise period! This is what we read in the press each & every day my experience is the total opposite. Its the liberal press that puts the premise that Programs is the answer. Please understand there are many different types of levels of custody in prisons. Most DOC's do a very good job with these non violent offenders with their placements. Here's an unknown fact that theses so called non violent offenders commit acts many violent inside these low custody facilities thus their continued bad behaviors will cause them to be removed from the lower facilities into a placement into a rougher level facility with other violent offenders..

All my yrs in the system I have never seen any proof that these programs work anything close to the reworked data put out to the public. I also find that the federal Gov controls so much of the state Gov. due to the many US district court decisions that insert the federal gov into the state DOC systems. For some strange reason the press & public thinks its a good ideal that the feds oversee the states DOC's ....nothing could be further from the truth. the Feds mandate high cost alleged fixes & state pay outs to many programs that from many political Correctional Agencies that rake in all the $$$ for these non prison programs or even DOC programs in the state DOC facilities ...thus making the cost of tax payers for those who pay taxes rises at an alarming rate. What a scam! But Joe Q public believes this is the best way to handle these kids.

No one wants to place these youngins in harsh prison ....here's something else most these kids have very little education...thus the Feds mandate they get all their education so now you have to have a school class rooms environments just like you pay for in your local schools that meet the schools out in the free world...think on that who pays for that? You have to pay teachers to enter & come into a rough corrections facility more $$$. You now need more security to protect the teachers most are all females teachers get the point here very big security issues here....more $$$ is needed. So you have programs in your local schools guess who had the right for the same type of programs yes you got it More programs from all over the spectrum ...more PC's more everything $$$$$ did I forget to bring up the $$$$. Now we need teaching directors and section heads & more test units and etc etc....$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. all mandated by the feds who by the way just mandates by US district court orders and who pays not the feds but the STATES! There is no win in this situation! My experience is all this is mostly all impotent & FAIL written all over it. But it is ever growing as I respond to this post.

Bottom line WE just feel better when we do not place these young misguided kids into a Corrections facility...hey Joe Q public just open up you wallets for eternity. This program element of this CJS is broken and they will not permit it to be fixed because of all the big $$$ coming from your wallet just so you will feel better no one said anything about the results...you feel better yet?

Ok what my solution? The number one way to make an impact on these kids is a State Low Custody Youth Work Camps. But if you understand & read the above then you know that my solution is outlaw'd & not permitted by US federal government due to the US Federal law mandates from the US Courts! I had to provide the above so you would see that my solution is banned. Sorry this is just the way it is. The only other slight possible other helping solution is this....& this will really sound strange coming from a starchy conservation CJS person like me but in truth many of the US drug laws need to be addressed in a major way & I do not mean more stiffer punishments either. Its a small fix but lowering these drug offenses that are all types of degrees of felonies to mere fines for there wrongdoings or just legalize some of these less harsh drugs would help. Not a good thing to do but it would bring relief to the courts & law enforcement.

The big big problem today as to why prison pops are out of control everywhere & so dangerous for all who enter both offenders & prison staff are the major street gangs & gang affiliation is the major contributor of prison violence that you want to protect the youngins from....once again it very hard to manage & control these predator street gangs without very harsh isolation methods that did work...years back but once again the US District Courts judges have banned these effective programs in prisons due to the offenders claims that their civil rights being violated by controlled close confinement. Oh by the many are not even US citizens . That's another long post for another day.

One last thing here we assume these offenders want to learn new good behaviors....& there are a very small % who will go against the grain & turn their lives around but in my yrs. I find this to be around the 10 % to 15 % range ...the public would like to believe the best in humanity...so would I but in reality the future of the CJS in America is a ticking time bomb. Expecting the Federal Gov & State Gov to provide & be successful in continuing doing & performing in what Government is supposed to do & one of the reasons for their being....with their first goal of "Protection of the Public " is a thing of the past!
 
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fearsomefour

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Bonifay….
I agree with most of what you are saying. Espcially the issues regarding courts limiting the ability of prisons to be effective in detaining people in a safe manor. The impact of gangs as well. Gangs, both in and out of prison, could be dealt with much more effectively….of course this would require people getting their rights violated, think of how the KKK was dealt with. The greater good principal does not apply much anymore unfortunately.
This line has me baffled however; "Experience has learned me that non violent or non repeaters are usually future serious offenders.."
If someone is a non repeater they would not be a future serious offender. I think I get what your saying, however, your view (certainly based on more "real world" experience than mine) may be a little slanted as working in the justice system you would be in contact with a very high percentage of repeat offenders.
The example I used of drunk driving (not the case that started this conversation) is a serious offense. I have known plenty of people that have gotten a DUI only one has ever repeated, he has three of four and is an alcoholic.
The kid who broke into my house was sent off to a work program place. Not prison, not coddling. I hope it works for him.
As for not liking the answer, I dont have a dog in the fight. The system is flawed and flawed to the point that if a better model was discovered and proven it probably would not be able to implemented for all the red tape/lawsuits.
I appreciate your comments seeing as you worked in the field for decades.
 

BonifayRam

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Bonifay….
This line has me baffled however; "Experience has learned me that non violent or non repeaters are usually future serious offenders.." If someone is a non repeater they would not be a future serious offender.

Good point my fellow good OL follower! my bad on that...:oops:

Question for you here ....Are previous criminal events committed by the juv's known to the jury's? Or are any of the previous Juv criminal events available as public information? It could be the first time or the second or three dozen previous events before they finally get sentenced as an adult. Are the names of these Juvs normally put out in the public domain? Who discloses all these names of criminal events by juvs ? Do the CJS personnel give out the names of all juvs? Juv's previous events are normally sealed by the court. So do we really know that these juvs are first timers?

One thing for-sure usually the only CJS personnel that really ever sees the full criminal history of these juvs are the classification staff reviewing their file in the juv or adult institutions ...... are we so sure about the provided information put out?
 

fearsomefour

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Good point. I am assuming and was operating under an assumption that when someone says "first time" it is in relation to adult crimes. For the reason you stated.
I also agree with your overall premis that most career criminals start young and never really stop.
I also agree, except for very rare occasions, the CJS does a pretty good job not sending kids or true first timers to big boy prison. When the place that is at the center (maybe that is a mis statement) of the system (prison) is notrious for making bad people worse, there is something wrong. I also agree that the biggest issue is the courts….not the rare case of a judge handing down an outragious sentence (or lack there of) like the story that started this thread but in courts wanting to run prisons from a far. Let the civil rights lawyers do their thing I suppose, but, certain rights are certainly sacrificed when someone goes to prison. The courts really need to let the people who know how to safely run a prison run them.
The kid that we know that broke into our house (I keep coming back to this because it will be interesting for me to see how he turns out) didnt get jail time, got a work program. Good for him, I hope he makes the most of it. I have spoken to him several times about making choices and all that stuff…..but, you cant force someone to grow up or do the right thing. We will see.