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That's gotta be the end of Rousey's career

Discussion in 'GENERAL SPORTS TALK' started by -X-, Dec 31, 2016.

  1. -X-

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  2. Afro Ram

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    She got absolutely destroyed in that fight. So much for the UFC trying to build her up as some unbeatable demigod or something. Well here's to being human but at least she has her Millions to console her.
     
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  3. Mackeyser

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    I not only called it for Nunes, but the round and HOW it was gonna happen. Table had to give me props. I laid it out. "This fight is all Nunes. Rousey's only chance is to catch Nunes on the high clinch. As long as Nunes fights off the high clinch like Holm did, this fight is over. Quickly. Nunes reminds me of Pernell Whitaker in that I can't remember another fighter that throws so many combinations, so straight and with so much power. Unless Nunes goes brain dead and allows herself to get caught in a high clinch and get flipped, we're looking at a first round KO, probably pretty quick"

    That's almost verbatim what I said pretty loudly at the Beef O'Brady's where I, my son and daughter and couple friends who roll BJJ watched. The back room was mostly for Rousey, but I couldn't have cared less. I'd never heard of Nunes and honestly, I was kinda burnt that she got the fight with Tate instead of Holm. WOW, did Nunes shut my mouth and make a huge fan out of me that night.

    After I went back and watched some of Nunes' other fights, I wondered why the UFC wasn't promoting this fantastic fighter so much more. It's not like they weren't willing to promote Brazilian fighters.

    Meh. Doesn't matter.

    Fight played out like I was Sherlock Holmes and the table had to give me props for totally calling the fight. It wasn't exactly Buster Douglas in Tokyo over Mike Tyson, but c'mon... Rhonda Rousey went off at -175? Really? Nunes was the underdog at +145?

    What's gonna be interesting to me is how Holly Holm looks at 145, which to me is a much better weight for her...and then... the entrance of Chris Cyborg to the UFC at 145. That's gonna happen.

    By the way, can we dispense with any speculation of what would have happened if Cyborg had made weight and fought Rousey? Cyborg would have DESTROYED Rousey. The only question is by how much because Cyborg would have made it personal as they have a history.

    Anyway, the whole card was good and I always like it when there's good BJJ in at least ONE fight and there was...the Borg v Smolka fight. DAMN that had some really nice grappling. Borg is young and while he was mostly in control, against a really experienced BJJ practitioner, he would have gotten caught in a couple of really sick triangles. You just can't leave that hand out there while on top.

    TJ Dillashaw put on a freaking clinic. Normally I watch and it's pretty easy to nitpick little things here and there. It's pretty rare when a fighter turns in a performance where instead, I'm struck getting excited about all the little things he's doing right and all the synergistic things he's doing that elevate his performance.

    Dillashaw v Garbrandt (the new Champ) will be a monster fight. Garbrandt now seems to have his head on straight, having fought for that kid who had leukemia and gave his belt to him. He fought as a complete fighter which is the only reason he was able to so thoroughly dismantle Dom Cruz (the former Champ) a guy who due to his awkward "no style" method of fighting has been really hard for anyone to get to.

    All in all, really good card. And if anyone didn't know before... Amanda Nunes is a freaking BEAST and is already one of the best pound for pound best MMA fighters in the world.
     
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  4. -X-

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    I thought Garbrandt was gonna pay for not swarming Cruz on the ground after that first knock down and instead chose to showboat. But that only served to increase his confidence. Good fight all around. I could see that becoming a long rivalry, but Dillashaw/Garbrandt is gonna be pretty special in its own right.

    Like @Mackeyser, I called Rousey's demise too. Told my wife she was gonna leave early and bloody. She said, "Good! I hate her attitude!" lol. She wanted Nunes anyway because she's from Miami where my wife was also born. Home team ftw.
     
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  5. Faceplant

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    I could never stand Rousey and loved how Holm dismantled her in that fight. She showed the blueprint for how to beat that type of fighter. I didn't see the fight last night, but it sounds like Nunes beat her with punches again, and that makes sense. Same way Buster took out the Mighty Tyson. Trust your jab/hook and don't run away. Rousey is a poor loser on top of it all, which just makes her look even more pathetic. Call it career Rhonda.
     
  6. UnknownREknown

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    That Rousey/Nunes "bout" wasn't even a fight. It's as if Rousey was determined to fight on the ground and as soon as she got hit, lost all focus on what was going on. It looked like someone getting swarmed by bees.

    That Dillishaw/Garbrandt fight is gonna be a beast, though.
     
  7. Mackeyser

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    Rousey didn't even get the chance to get that high clinch to try and take it to the ground.

    That's the thing. Rousey was NEVER that good. She was and is a very good judoka and came into a nascent women's MMA division where most were trained in Muay Thai...and were relatively new to it.

    Well, a very skilled judoka will eat a less experienced Muay Thai fighter for lunch every day NOT because one style is better or because the FIGHTER is better, but because while both utilize that high clinch, the Muay Thai fighter uses that high clinch to control the head, and direct attacks with hands, elbows and knees. Her focus is above the waist and on striking. The judoka while in the same grasp will be focused on foot placement and hip placement and her focus will be below the waist.

    Here's the difference. The Muay Thai fighter has no "submission" or KO punch from that high grasp. It's a general starting position from which a plethora of attacks begin. It's a default position and Muay Thai fighters fall into it, almost as a matter of rote.

    The Judoka, on the other hand, DOES have many submissions straight from the high clinch, immediately from one of several throws. Generally, the easiest is an armbar, but other submissions can also be present.

    THAT is why Rousey appeared to be so dominant.

    The football equivalent was Bill Walsh's WCO. Most of the league either ran a 3-4 with heavy interior LBs or a 4-3, still with pretty big LBs and LBs were basically considered as the second line of defense in stopping the run. So, Walsh started creating mismatches by dicing up defenses using horizontal crossing routes, slants and posts and 4 and 5 WR sets that put these big LBs in coverage, an obvious mismatch.

    It wasn't that the other team was inherently worse at football. It's that there was a schematic mismatch that was easily exploited. Combine that with talent and history is made.

    THAT is what Rousey was able to exploit. She came along at the beginning of Women's MMA. She had supreme confidence AND her style wasn't just counter to the prevailing wisdom that women needed to train traditional Muay Thai striking, but it specifically FED ON one of the basic striking poses in Muay Thai.

    If you go back to her fights, you'll see that she simply performed what amounts to basic judo on people who had no answer for her basic judo.

    Then came Holly Holm. Her team realized that if Rousey couldn't get that high clinch, her game was suspect. Perhaps more than suspect. Now, Holly was a cautious fighter. I think had she more confidence, she could have finished Rousey in the first round, but the hype was so immense that the caution seemed justified. Still, the game plan was sound and Rousey was KO'd with a perfectly delivered kick to the neck.

    Undeterred, her boxing coach/boyfriend who stinks on ice and should be banned from MMA coaching forever... brought her into this fight without express instructions NOT to trade with Nunes. Rather than concede the striking and work to take the fight to the ground (where, actually, I submit that Rousey had actually LESS of a chance because Nunes is a legit BJJ black belt with sick submission skills) and work submissions off of takedowns, he thought Rousey could trade a bit before going in for the clinch.

    I've been watching boxing since the mid '70s and I had to really go back through my fight Rolodex to find a combination of laser like straight punches and explosive power in combination. Pernell Whitaker. Like no joke. Or maybe Gerald Maclellan. So, either you have a coach who knows not a freaking thing about the sport of Boxing/MMA...OR... He just doesn't know how to watch film. Either way, he's useless.

    Normally, I can't stand Herb Dean for his idiosyncratic method for determining stoppages, but he got this one right. WAY right. Rousey was out on her feet, not defending herself and could only take more punishment. The fight was over and he stepped in to prevent Rousey from taking any more punishment.

    And that's the point. Once the high clinch was taken away, Rousey became a glass jawed suspect fighter that would only be competitive with a fighter who couldn't fight off the high clinch.

    The hype machine painted her as this dominating presence. That's crap. Ali dominated. Tyson dominated. Marciano dominated. Joe Louis dominated. Sugar Ray Leonard dominated. The list is pretty short. The list is even shorter for MMA because... there are so many more paths to victory that no one dominates. Demetrius "Mighty Mouse" Johnson, Anderson "Spider" Silva, Jon "Bones" Jones... there's probably a few more in boxing and MMA, but not many. Dominating winnows the list considerably. That's why Georges St. Pierre isn't on the list. He won plenty, but never dominated.

    What we see now is a traditional MMA fighter regardless of gender in Amanda Nunes who's fantastic at striking, a legit black belt in BJJ and thus presents a serious danger standing up and on the ground. Women's MMA hasn't seen the likes of her, yet. That's standard in Men's MMA. The cool thing as that plenty of up and coming women ARE like this and Rousey's days of being able to exploit what was essentially a loophole due to "getting in early" were always numbered.

    She's still marketable, she can still do movies and endorsement and she WAS, absolutely, responsible for helping to elevate the status, if not the actual skill level of Women's MMA. I think an argument can be made that the famous avatar of Rousey did most of the work rather than the actual fighter, but that's another post.

    If Rousey wants to stay? The ONLY way she can stay is if she gets a LEGIT boxing coach... like Uncle Mayweather, who will make her stay away and build up her hand speed and ability to counter and force people to come into her. THEN as they come in, she can shoot the high clinch and throw and go for the submissions. But with no hands like now? She's target practice for anyone with any skill.
     
  8. fearsomefour

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    This is my problem with MMA as a casual fan.....like I always say.....a contender at 4-0, a champion at 6-0 a legend at 11-4 and retired at 12-6.
    Its less this way than it used to be but very little staying power generally in the sport.
     
  9. dieterbrock

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    Rousey made 3 million and Nunes 100k
    Something is rotten in Denmark...
     
  10. Mackeyser

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    Yep. Well, Nunes AS THE CHAMP, made $100k while the challenger who'd taken a year off and lost the title by devastating KO got $3M.

    Nunes won another $100k, plus potentially some other monies as a result of winning and maybe Fight of the Night, etc.

    Still, I think it's crap for any challenger to make more than the Champ.

    You wanna BE the Champ? You wanna get the Champ's check? You wanna eat like a Champ?

    You gotta BEAT the Champ, not just show up to get BEAT DOWN by the Champ.
     
  11. flv

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    Disagree. People watched to see Rousey so she deserves the money. Nunes was just the other person in there. It didn't much matter whether she was a Champion or a complete nobody.
     
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  12. -X-

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    Yeah, agree. Any other fighter besides Rousey, and it wouldn't be as big a draw.
    Nunes will get her checks now that she's destroyed Rousey and removed all doubt about who the best fighter is.

    Minor point, but she got $200K.
     
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  13. Mackeyser

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    Well, then that's a shame, because that means there's a lot of MMA fans that just didn't know.

    I was surprised to listen to Joe Rogan's podcast and even he was "uncertain".

    How was that possible???

    This fight wasn't going to be close. If I was a gambler, Rousey's ONLY chance was that she got lucky on a high clinch and got a quick submission off of a throw.

    What were the chances of that happening against a BJJ black belt from Brazil? Almost None. There's a REASON no one trains Judo in MMA and you don't see any Judoka Olympic Gold medalists in Men's MMA. The skill sets don't translate.

    Chael Sonnen was talking about that very thing on Sportcenter after the fight and he's a personal friend of Rousey's.

    Nunes hits like a truck. The women's division hasn't seen a striker like her other than Cyborg and she's had issues with substances. Supposedly, she got popped for a diuretic which doesn't surprise me as she walks around at 175 and had to cut 26 pounds for the last fight and was in pretty bad distress. The HBO vid they did on her weight cut is going to further change how MMA is allowed to deal with weight divisions (they already had to ban IV rehydration. Rousey used to use it and the Holm fight was her first fight without it which is partly why she looked bloated. Oral rehydration is very different than IV rehydration). So, I dunno if it's legit that the diuretic was in fact prescribed due to combat how weight cutting issues were affecting her menstrual cycles (a legit use) or if she was using it as a masking agent for steroid use (obviously, not legit). We'll see.

    Sorry for that sidetrack.

    Point was that Nunes hits like a truck and other than Cyborg, there as simply never been another woman who hits with that velocity, power or ferocity and no one has ever in the women's classes been as accurate as Nunes with that kind of power. Her power and length requires a tremendous defense from her opponents. Even in Boxing, few posses that kind of striking prowess. I had to go back to Pernell Whitaker, really. Maybe a smidge of Thomas Hearns. Just the kind of power that with one punch can just change you and that punch could be a dang jab!

    Is Rousey popular? Yep. So is Katy Perry. Both had about as much chance. And considering that Rousey had Edmund as her boxing coach, that's really NOT much of an exaggeration.

    Seriously, I don't gamble due to a promise to the wife, but at -175??? Rousey was a sucker bet. I didn't just call that fight, but called HOW the fight would go.

    So, while I suppose Rousey is "popular", I dunno what to make of that. She was gonna get smashed going into that fight and she got popular with millions in promotion effectively exploiting a weakness in a women's division that is rapidly closing... a weakness that doesn't exist in the men's division. I mean, you don't see any former Olympic Judo champions in men's MMA for a reason.

    I appreciate MMA and have followed it since UFC 1. I don't so much care for the personalities as celebrate the diversity of talent and the dedication to the craft.

    Which is why Amanda Nunes won me over so quickly after I was being such a curmudgeon saying she shouldn't have gotten the shot against Holm (I was so wrong about that...clearly). She won me over during the fight, by the way. Her undeniable skill was something that I couldn't help, but appreciate.

    I dunno. I really like where the Women's division is headed and I wasn't ever the biggest Rousey fan not because of the attitude or any of that, but because she was clearly exploiting an easy mismatch. Which is fine, but people extrapolated her "domination" of the Women's division beyond exploiting Muay Thai trained strikers with no Judo take down defense into craziness like "she could beat Floyd Mayweather".

    My long point is that I appreciate MMA...the full craft. Rousey got famous in MMA using what amounted to a single judo throw into an armbar. When that ONE thing wasn't there for her... TWICE, she got knocked TF out. And it wasn't even close. She has no striking defense. She can't strike.

    I'm glad she came along because she grew the women's side. I'm super happy that women can headline an MMA card which isn't the least bit controversial now. For that, I'll always be glad for Rousey. Her role in so far as that's concern is historic in combat sports history.

    But there's a difference between being historic and being great. Rousey was historic. She was never great. She just had great hype.

    jmho, ymmv
     
  14. flv

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    I'd watch a Tyson comeback fight. I wouldn't watch a Wladimir Klitschko fight. Klitschko is a better fighter but he's boring as hell. I'd definitely watch Katy Perry in a cage fight. Perry vs Rousey? Absolutely! Nunes? Meh, whatever!
     
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  15. Mackeyser

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    I kinda get that. Mayweather is by far a better fighter than Gatti was (his whore wife had him killed and I'll never back down from that), but I was happy to pay to watch Gatti and couldn't be bothered to watch Mayweather.

    So I get the sentiment.
     
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  16. fearsomefour

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    I appreciate what Mayweather did because no one really did it better. But it would crack me up when people would get upset after buying one of his fights....you have to know what you are going to get. A great defensive fighter who avoids getting hit and doesn't take chances, takes pot shots and bails, outpoints his opponent and doesn't get hit. A great fighter who wins boring fights.
     
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  17. Mackeyser

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    I'm old school I guess. There is a list of great fighters who put themselves to the hazard, fought opponents in their prime (as opposed to fighting someone like Canelo before he was ready).

    That list is actually pretty long and transcends division.

    If anything, Mayweather is an anomaly in that he was able to market his "villain" role to sell fights (polls and subsequent research show that at least half of those who bought Maywrather fights tuned expressly to watch him lose). In every other instance, defensive fighters who don't bring action have had immense difficulty even getting fights.

    Recently, we saw that with Winky Wright and Paul Williams (RIP).

    I prefer talented boxers who fight... Leonard...Hearns...Roy Jones...Juan Manuel Marquez...

    Honestly, if Oscar de la Hoya doesn't take the last 3 rounds off, he should have beat Mayweather. And the last time Mayweather actually scrapped (I dunno that he ever went to war like many of the guys above or Gatti did) was against Zab Judah.

    Perhaps Mayweather is the first boxer I've seen who I wouldn't call a fighter. Even when he has pride or his word on the line. He just won't fight...he'll outclass lesser opponents, but won't risk damage.

    That's a cardinal sin to me.
     
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  18. flv

    flv
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    I'm guessing you weren't a Chris Eubank fan. ;)
     
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  19. Mackeyser

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    I actually don't remember him...LOL.

    Then again, I just got back from the ER...thankfully, I passed the kidney stone in the ER before they had to put in a stent or go get it...like last time...that wasn't fun.

    They gave me this IV stuff...Dilaudid...more powerful than Morphine...holy cow. Was so strong, I had trouble breathing, they had to put me on oxygen...

    So right now? I'm glad the wife had to drive cuz I woulda struggled to remember my way home...LOL.
     
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  20. fearsomefour

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    Just a smart guy who didn't see the value in taking risks.
    He could make (whatever amount) 40% for fighting a less exciting match up.....but fight four of those versus one huge payday that may risk a loss.....then, eventually fight the big name anyway and get the payday. As an aside, there were as many guys avoiding Mayweather and he was avoiding them. That was all a two way street.
    There was a time he was an unbeatable fighter in the sense there was no one around that was going to beat him if he had even an average night. He decided to play it save and extend his career. Not exciting, but, I don't blame him.