SYG 2.0... Almost Time Until We Are All Wrong

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StealYoGurley

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Jan 13, 2016
Messages
1,131
Objective
The Rams did a great job with their coaching hires and made good use of their resources in Free Agency to put Jared Goff in the best position to succeed. Moving forward in the draft the Rams need to continue that trend by drafting players at that fit what McVay and Wade want to do. This draft will attempt to do that, analyze all new players who weren't mentioned in version 1.0, and introduce good players who may not have a ton of exposure on this board. I'll try to put the best tape I can find above my breakdown so you can see a full picture of the players skill set. Long winded as usual, but hopefully worth it.


3rd Wave FA Signing
John Sullivan, C, Redskins- IMO it still makes alot of sense for the Rams to make this signing or a similar vet signing it. I am not in love with this center class and according to Snead with Goff in year 2 the Rams prefer to having a vet starting or an older guy to mentor a young guy. Sulivan could potentially fill either role if his health checks out. On another note, both McVay and Kroemer converted career guards to center last season with good results. The Rams have three potential options in Wichmann, Brown, and Donnal who have all started games in the NFL. These guys have only one year less of experience at center than some of the more attractive options in the draft like Roullier and Elflein. Unlike those guys the Rams young guys have nearly 3 years in an NFL strength and conditioning program and starting experience against NFL talent. IMO Kroemer's and McVay's experience converting guards to centers supplemented by a vet like Sullivan is a more attractive proposition than any rookie center available.​


Draft
2. Evan Engram, TE, Ole Miss.
Size
: 6'3 235
Defining athletic traits: Speed (4.42 40), Quickness (6.92 Three cone)

Jordan Reed made the Redskins offense go more than any other Redskins weapon. It was interesting seeing Jay Gruden admit as much at the NFL coaches breakfast when asked about the loss of Garcon and DeSean Jackson. Reed's ability to be a mismatch against LB and safeties at all levels of the field and especially in the redzone was a huge part of McVay's offense. Engram can fill a similar role for the rams. Engram is an elite athlete and produced at an elite level in the SEC which is an automatic plus in Snead's book. With his speed, quickness, and overall athleticism Engram can come in be a mismatch in the slot and lined up out wide against LBs and Safeties. Engram had more reps inline early in his career and did a great job stretching the seam from that alignment. Engram is certainly not a good blocker from any alignment, but that's not what you are bringing him in to do. He also looks better in contested situations outside the hashes as opposed to inside the hashes. Engram is more polished than Reed coming out of college who didn't settle in as a TE until late in his college career. However, like Reed Engram has the moldable traits to grow into that mismatch role and I wouldn't discount a productive rookie season like Reed's. The Rams have shown a ton interest meeting with him at senior bowl and bringing him in for a predraft visit. His speed and quickness complement Higbee's size and the two could form a dangerous TE combo. If anyone know how to best utilize his both skills sets together and separately it is former TE coach Sean McVay.

3. Mack Hollins, WR, North Carolina
Size:
6'4 221
Defining Athletic Traits: size speed combo 4.53 40 time (pulled up injured)

At 6'4 221 with legit deep threat ability Hollins, has everything the Rams WR core is currently lacking. McVay's offense which is heavily influenced by Kyle Shanahan and Jay Gruden and needs a big time deep threat. Lafleur's and McVay's and mentors had dynamic guys like Julio Jones, AJ Green, DeSean Jackson, Andre Johnson, and Josh Gordon. Last year the skins drafted Josh Doctson because they thought he was similar to AJ Green. If I had to compare Hollins to any of those guys it would be Josh Gordon at his best, because Hollins is a big guy who gets up to elite top speed quickly and can win in contested situations. Unlike Gordon Hollins is a high character guy who initially walked on primarily playing as a great special teamer then became a team captain and one of the premier deep threats in the ACC. It was really unfortunate seeing him suffer a broken collar bone ending his senior season early and a calf injury at combine on his first 40 attempt where he still ran a 4.53 that derailed his pre draft process. On film he uses a variety of release moves to beat defenders off the line and once he gets past them he's gone. He can run by DBs even when they have safety help and can really track the deep ball and run it down. He is also quicker out of his breaks than expected for a WR his with size. You would like to see more career production, but I his TD rate of 20 TDs on 81 catches highlights his big play ability. I also like seeing him being productive against elite college secondaries like Clemson and Florida State who are constantly loaded with NFL talent. Hollins is not a finished product, but he is a good blocker, a hard worker, and has NFL deep threat chops so he can fit in to "the basketball team" multi faceted WR group McVay is trying to build. At worst he is initially a situational deep threat. Some would argue this is early for him, but Hollins is as talented as any WR in this draft and has the makeup to make sure his potential is fulfilled.

4. Shaquill Griffin, CB, Central Florida
Size:
6'0, 32 3/8' arms.
Defining Athletic Traits: Speed (4.38 top 5 combine), Explosion (38.5 VJ, 132 BJ both positional top 5), Quickness (top 10 Short shuttle and three cone)

Griffin has great size, long arms, and is an elite athlete in all regards. On the field he has loose hips, speed, and physicality to play in Wade's press man scheme. With his size, cover skills, and athletic traits he definitely should go higher, but his technique can get sloppy and his coverage instincts are not fully refined. He and his teammates struggled against Michigan las year, but the whole team was over matched. He may not be able to play heavy snaps right away, but he may not be asked to with Gaines and Joyner being options in the Nickel. Griffin has starting CB upside with the right coaching, and by all accounts Aubrey Pleasant is a terrific CB coach.

4. Deatrich Wise, DE, Arkansas
Size:
6'5 275, 35 5/8' arms
Defining Athletic Traits: Power (22 bench reps with freakishly long arms)

Wise and his freakishly long arms have the power to rag doll blockers and be effective in the run and pass game playing 3-4 DE in Wades scheme. He had better production in 2015 compared to 2016 playing mostly as a 4-3 DE, but IMO his power and lack of pure edge rush ability make him a better fit as a defensive interior player. Additionally, being productive in the SEC is always a plus in Snead's eyes. With his length and power Wise provides a different skill set behind Easley and has starter potential down the road. Wise tore up the shrine game as you can see above.

5. Keion Adams, EDGE, Western Michigan
Size:
6'2 247
Defining Athletic Traits: Burst (4.68 40 time at pro day)

Adams is one of my favorite edge rushers in the draft and I could see him going as early as round 3. He has the pure pass rush ability every team craves. Adams posses an explosive first step with the ability to bend that make his speed rush a nightmare for tackles. He is developing a quick inside counter move and and a spin move that needs more refinement. Right now Adams doesn't have the play strength to consistently set the edge in the NFL, but his pass rush ability and ability to penetrate in the run game will allow him to get on the field early. His best fit is learning and developing behind Quinn as an open ended rusher. Adams will only become more effective as he continues to develop counter moves to go with his devastating speed rush.

6. Avery Moss, EDGE, Western Kentucky
Size:
6'3 264, 34.5' arms
Defining Athletic Traits: No outstanding combine results, but length is a huge asset.

(Moss is #9 usually lined up on the opposite end of the highlighted guy Rivers)
Moss is an interesting player who could go higher, but has character issues. He was kicked out of Nebraska for exposing himself to a woman, so those issues will hurt his draft projection especially in the current NFL climate. On the field Moss has long arms, decent power, and experience playing with his hand in the ground and standing up. He was very productive playing opposite Derek Rivers who could get drafted as early as round 2. Moss has natural ability, can set the edge, but isn't a refined pass rusher yet. However, he gives Wade and his staff alot of tools to work with and refine in order to develop him into a complete player.

6. Treyvon Hester, DL, Toledo
Size:
6'2 300
Defining Athletic Traits: N/A Missed Pro Day and Combine due to Shoulder Injury will work out April 13

Hester could be a versatile reserve DL. As the 6th DL he probably wont be active on game day, but could play as a pass rushing nose or a 3-4 DE. Hester has good hand usage, can penetrate, and holds up decently against double teams. He ducks his head and looses the ball a little too often, but could be a versatile d line reserve in the future

7. Levon Myers, OL, Northern Illinois
Size:
6'5 309
Defining Athletic Traits: Mean Streak (not athleticism but it's the trait that makes him effective)

Myers was heavily recruited out of high and could have gone to Lineman U Wisconsin, but chose to make his own mark at Northern Illinois. He has good size, is technically sound, plays mean, and has power. Myers profiles as swing tackle prospect who could also play guard. Rams paid a lot of attention to him at his Pro Day and he fits the profile for a Kroemer lineman.
(For those interested late round OL tape)

2017 Depth Chart
QB: Goff, Mannion, Murray
RB: Gurley, Dunbar, Brown, Green
X WR: Hollins, Thomas
Z WR: Woods, Spruce
Y WR: Tavon, Cooper
TE: Engram, Higbee, Harkey, Hemingway
LT: Whitworth, Myers
LG: Saffold, Donnal
C: Brown, Sullivan
RG: Havenstein, Wichman
RT: Robinson,

LE: Easley, Wise
NT: Brockers, Hester
RE: Donald, Walker
SOLB: Barwin, Moss, Littleton
MIKE: Ogletree, Forrest
MO: Barron, Hager
WOLB: Quinn, Adams `
LCB: Tru, Griffin, Jordan
RCB: Webster, Gaines
FS: Joyner, Davis
SS: Alexander, Randolph

LS: McQuaide
K: Zuerline
P: Hecker
 

jrry32

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It's not my cup of tea. I feel like this seems like a Jeff Fisher draft more than anything. We end up taking a bunch of athletes, but where are the great football players? I'm fine with the Day 2 picks. If McVay wants Engram, he should take him. I trust him to make that call. Engram has the tools and ability. I'm hesitant to advocate for him because I like Higbee more in the receiving TE role than I do as the inline blocker. And I REALLY liked Higbee last year. On tape, Higbee is a big dude with plus athleticism and phenomenal hands who runs with anger and violence after the catch. TE is one of the toughest positions in the NFL in terms of transition, so I'd be hesitant to take a TE who will push Higbee out of the receiving TE role. Plus, I also see Engram as more of a big slot WR than a TE. And I've been told we have enough slot WRs.

As for Hollins, I was going to criticize the pick, but I thought about it and think it's a fair pick. I like Hollins. Giving you shit for picking him in the 3rd round instead of the 4th or 5th round is silly. I've always subscribed to the theory that you take your guys where you know you can get them and don't worry about how other people perceive value. Speed rises on draft day, so I understand you taking Hollins in the 3rd. I do disagree with your comparison, though. Hollins doesn't have the play strength or YAC ability that Josh Gordon had, and I haven't seen him dominate in the air like Gordon. Hollins reminds me more of Vincent Jackson in terms of his upside. He's insanely fast and quicker than you'd expect a leggy 6'4" WR to be. I don't think he's going to be super effective in the short passing game because of how leggy he is, but his speed will allow him to force defenders to bail early which will open up the intermediate and deep games. Plus, he's a special teams monster. He may take a couple years to develop, but we'll get our use out of him during that time as a situational deep threat and special teams demon.

Day 3 is where I really hit the wall with this draft. You have us taking too many underachieving athletes. Wise, Griffin, and Moss all fit that bill. I also wouldn't have spent so many picks on edge guys. I really like Avery Moss as a developmental guy. He's got a great tool-set, but he really has to learn how to harness and use it. His technical skill is severely lacking. He makes a lot of sense if we go heavy on great football players, but I wouldn't feel nearly as comfortable in a draft where we're taking a bunch of toolsy underachievers.

The Griffin pick, in particular, bothers me. We have one of the most talented CB drafts ever, and we spend a 4th on an athlete who isn't that good at playing CB. Hell, the game you linked us to shows him getting beat by an Arkansas State WR for two TDs. Yes, he's a great athlete, but his technical skill is completely lacking, and I'm not impressed by his instincts/anticipation. I think there are better options in the 4th round. I'd take Howard Wilson and Jourdan Lewis over him in a heartbeat. It feels like we're making another Brian Quick/Donnie Avery type pick.

Ultimately, I appreciate the thought you put into it and the time you spent writing everything up. I don't like the route you went on Day 3, but I understand why you did what you did. We simply have different philosophies.
 

OldSchool

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The one thing that struck me was 1 CB and 4 DE/OLB edge guys. Don't know much about some of those edge guys but from what I've read they're not great. I'd rather swap a couple of those picks for DB's and/or another WR. Thanks for your hard work as always.
 

LACHAMP46

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Wow, that's a lot of defensive linemen!
Love Engram...I don't care if he does play wr for us...or slot receiver. Very productive player. I would get Hollins in round 4 or later. He's a stud too...
I need more corners in this mock...and a center.
 

StealYoGurley

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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5
Day 3 is where I really hit the wall with this draft. You have us taking too many underachieving athletes. Wise, Griffin, and Moss all fit that bill. I also wouldn't have spent so many picks on edge guys. I really like Avery Moss as a developmental guy. He's got a great tool-set, but he really has to learn how to harness and use it. His technical skill is severely lacking. He makes a lot of sense if we go heavy on great football players, but I wouldn't feel nearly as comfortable in a draft where we're taking a bunch of toolsy underachievers.

Your criticism of Griffin is fair. IMO the deficiencies in his game are coachable. He is not a complete project like 4th round pick Mo Alexander who barely played DB and missed time due to injury and suspension. For the most part the Rams had the right coaches on the defensive side of the ball and were able to get the most out of "toolsy" guys like Mo. By all accounts pleasant is a great CB coach. He got good results converting Quinton Dunbar from WR to CB and and got alot out of 4th rounder Breshaud Breeland who started as a rookie and was also a toolsy guy coming out, but was less talented Griffin.

I went heavy on 3-4 DEs and and 3-4 OLBs because Walker is really the only depth we have on the DL (not sure what is going with Westbrooks) and the rams have zero backup OLBs. IMO the Rams should let Wade draft his guys he knows what traits he is looking for at the position

I wouldn't put Wise in the same under achieving athlete category you put Griffin and Moss in. Wise isn't really an outstanding athlete he just has freakishly long arms and power. Wise had a down year his senior season, but he was dealing with a hand injury he suffered in the season opener. Healthy In 2015 he had much more production 8 sacks, 12 QB hits, and 21 hurries mainly against SEC competition. He showed what he could do when healthy during the shrine game with 8 tackles 1.5 sacks and 4-8 hurries (depending on where you get your stats)

I don't think Moss underachieved. He had 4.5 sacks playing early as rotational guy at Nebraska and had 17.5 TFL and 10.5 sacks last year. He has been a productive player even though he hasn't fully harnessed his tools. IMO in the 6th round there isn't a huge downside in taking a toolsy guy, but I guess this is where our philosophies differ. IMO If a 6th rounder with tools reaches his potential awesome, if he is just a solid rotational guy that's a great result as well, if he doesn't do alot that doesn't hurt much. IMO Moss has the tools to at least be a solid rotational guy.

The Griffin pick, in particular, bothers me. We have one of the most talented CB drafts ever, and we spend a 4th on an athlete who isn't that good at playing CB. Hell, the game you linked us to shows him getting beat by an Arkansas State WR for two TDs. Yes, he's a great athlete, but his technical skill is completely lacking, and I'm not impressed by his instincts/anticipation. I think there are better options in the 4th round. I'd take Howard Wilson and Jourdan Lewis over him in a heartbeat. It feels like we're making another Brian Quick/Donnie Avery type pick.

I actually considered Howard Wilson with the pick, like him as well. I like Wilson, but he plays so much bail technique hard to evaluate how successful he would be in a press man scheme. His lack of play strength also stands out on tape making him a questionable fit in a press man scheme. Ultimately I went with Grffin because he plays with more play strength and is a better fit in a press man scheme. This draft is very talented at the CB position, but in the 4th round IMO Griffin will be one of the better ones available. Not sure Lewis will be there in the 4th or what McVay's approach will be with guys with serious character issues like him.

Brian Quick and Donnie Avery were 2nd round picks with higher expectations. For the most part in round 4-7 you aren't looking at instant starters, if you get one great. You tend to give Day 3 guys a longer leash in terms of development and use them situationally playing to their strengths as they develop into more complete starters.Our philosophies differ I would rather give coaches upside and traits that create successful players at that position especially on Day 2, but I am fine disagreeing there.
 

StealYoGurley

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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
The one thing that struck me was 1 CB and 4 DE/OLB edge guys. Don't know much about some of those edge guys but from what I've read they're not great. I'd rather swap a couple of those picks for DB's and/or another WR. Thanks for your hard work as always.

I wouldn't say not great they are 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th round talents, players usually aren't considered great pre draft when they are being selected in those rounds. Wise and Adams specifically have potential to be really good and have been productive in college. The positional breakdown of the players picked isn't four DE/OLBs. It is two DE/OLBs (Adams, Moss), one 3-4 DE (Wise), and one NT/DE (Hester).

With the switch to the 3-4 the Rams have no depth at new positions specifically 3-4 DE, NT and 3-4 OLB. Walker is the only down lineman depth on the roster (who knows whats going on with Westbrooks) and there are no backup 3-4 OLBs on the roster. In today's NFL you need to be 4 deep at pass rusher. Currently the Rams don't even have 4 bodies at DE/OLB.

Conversely at corner you typically keep 5 guys and the Rams have Tru, Webster, Gaines, and Joyner playing some nickel even before I added Griffin. IMO the 5th corner spot can be filled by the winner of a competition between Mike Jordan, Troy Hill, Blake Countess, and whoever we bring in UDFA which will be deeper than usual this year because of the depth in this corner class.

At safety Rams added a host of intriguing characters who could compete for the 4th safety spot behind Mo, Joyner, and Cody Davis. I am particularly intrigued by Brian Randolph and Marqui Christian. Both guys are coming off injuries, but are just as good if not better than any late round pick or UDFA.

I can't really disagree with your WR point, can make a strong argument to add more bodies there. However, Mike Thomas still has some talent and is surprisingly good on special teams which gives him added value as a 5th WR. I like Spruce's skillset in this offense but he could definitely use some competition through the draft or UDFA. Ultimately I went with adding guys in the front 7 who will be actually active on game day when a 6th WR will not be.
 

jrry32

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I wouldn't put Wise in the same under achieving athlete category you put Griffin and Moss in. Wise isn't really an outstanding athlete he just has freakishly long arms and power. Wise had a down year his senior season, but he was dealing with a hand injury he suffered in the season opener. Healthy In 2015 he had much more production 8 sacks, 12 QB hits, and 21 hurries mainly against SEC competition. He showed what he could do when healthy during the shrine game with 8 tackles 1.5 sacks and 4-8 hurries (depending on where you get your stats)

I don't think Moss underachieved. He had 4.5 sacks playing early as rotational guy at Nebraska and had 17.5 TFL and 10.5 sacks last year. He has been a productive player even though he hasn't fully harnessed his tools. IMO in the 6th round there isn't a huge downside in taking a toolsy guy, but I guess this is where our philosophies differ. IMO If a 6th rounder with tools reaches his potential awesome, if he is just a solid rotational guy that's a great result as well, if he doesn't do alot that doesn't hurt much. IMO Moss has the tools to at least be a solid rotational guy.

Wise and Moss both only started one year. Wise had a major down year compared to expectations. Moss had a nice year, but his game shows a lot of holes.

Both are toolsy guys who are better athletes than football players at this point.

I like Moss. I'd take Moss. My issue is that we spend much of Day 3 taking toolsy guys. Well, truly, the entire draft was spent on toolsy guys. But Engram and Hollins are both good football players (although, a bit raw).

I actually considered Howard Wilson with the pick, like him as well. I like Wilson, but he plays so much bail technique hard to evaluate how successful he would be in a press man scheme. His lack of play strength also stands out on tape making him a questionable fit in a press man scheme. Ultimately I went with Grffin because he plays with more play strength and is a better fit in a press man scheme. This draft is very talented at the CB position, but in the 4th round IMO Griffin will be one of the better ones available. Not sure Lewis will be there in the 4th or what McVay's approach will be with guys with serious character issues like him.

Griffin plays in a defense that is very similar to Wilson's. There's plenty of tape of Wilson playing press man coverage. There's also plenty of tape of him in off man or off zone coverage. Same is true of Griffin.

Play strength doesn't make or break a CB in press coverage. Press coverage is more about technique than strength. Jason Verrett was one of the most disruptive press CBs as a prospect I've seen over the past 5 or so years despite being 5'10" 175. It's because Verrett's technique was insanely good. Press coverage is all about your ability to land punches, mirror the WR, and then turn and run. It's nice to have more pop behind the punch, but it's not a necessity.

Griffin's play strength is completely negated because he has poor technique. His punches don't land too often, and he puts himself in poor position because of his bad footwork.

By the time Griffin masters press technique, Howard Wilson will have added weight and play strength. I'd rather take my chances on a guy like Wilson who shows much better instincts, football ability, and ball-skills on tape. Plus, Wilson is a stellar athlete. Wilson's technique isn't perfect. He needs to work on his punch and hand placement, but his footwork and strategic approach are miles ahead of Griffin (plus Wilson's agility, acceleration, and hip fluidity are as good as anyone's in the class). Wilson understands that great press CBs have a patient approach. Griffin hasn't gotten there yet.

That's one of the biggest things I look for in potential press CBs. Do they understand the mechanics behind pressing?

Brian Quick and Donnie Avery were 2nd round picks with higher expectations. For the most part in round 4-7 you aren't looking at instant starters, if you get one great. You tend to give Day 3 guys a longer leash in terms of development and use them situationally playing to their strengths as they develop into more complete starters.Our philosophies differ I would rather give coaches upside and traits that create successful players at that position especially on Day 2, but I am fine disagreeing there.

My point is that this CB class will give us a shot at guys who are great football players. I'd rather not pass on one for a great athlete who isn't that good at football at this point.

In the 5th round, I'd be more amenable to Griffin. At the top of the 4th, I think we have better options.