St. Louis Rams' Projected Roster: Aug 11/Wagoner

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RamBill

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St. Louis Rams' projected roster
By Nick Wagoner

http://espn.go.com/blog/st-louis-rams/post/_/id/10247/st-louis-rams-projected-roster-3

Examining the St. Louis Rams' roster:

(Note: WR Stedman Bailey is expected to make the team but is suspended for the first four games of the season and will not count on the initial 53-man roster)

QUARTERBACKS (3)

Sam Bradford
Shaun Hill
Garrett Gilbert

Bradford and Hill are locks. Gilbert got plenty of work in the preseason opener. It doesn't appear he'll have much competition from Austin Davis for a potential third spot. The only question is whether the Rams keep three.

RUNNING BACKS (4)

Zac Stacy
Benny Cunningham
Tre Mason
Chase Reynolds


The Rams went heavy on running backs last year, keeping five and if they do both Reynolds and Isaiah Pead could make it. But we're going with a change-up this week and elevating Reynolds over Pead. Reynolds is a core special-teams guy, a role Pead could also play but Reynolds has managed to stay on the field and did some good things against the Saints.

RECEIVERS (5)

Chris Givens
Tavon Austin
Kenny Britt
Brian Quick
Austin Pettis


With Bailey suspended the first four weeks, the Rams could take a longer look at another wideout for the first quarter of the season, but Bailey plus the five listed here seem to be in pretty good shape. Of the wideouts who could theoretically serve as placeholders until Bailey's return, Emory Blake has been the most consistent and Austin Franklin has displayed the most potential.

TIGHT ENDS (4)

Jared Cook
Lance Kendricks
Cory Harkey
Alex Bayer


The first three are probably pretty safe, but the Rams could have an intriguing competition for a potential fourth tight end if they opt to keep one. I resisted the temptation to elevate Bayer above Justice Cunningham last week but Bayer continues to perform in practice and had a strong preseason debut. This one could come down to the wire but for now, let's give the edge to Bayer.

OFFENSIVE LINEMEN (9)

Jake Long
Joe Barksdale
Scott Wells
Greg Robinson
Rodger Saffold
Davin Joseph
Barrett Jones
Tim Barnes
Mike Person


It's still hard to get a read on how the depth could shake out here and it's possible the Rams could go with 10 or 11 linemen as they did at times last year. The first seven or eight listed here should be in good shape, but beyond that, the competition is wide open. Players like Sean Hooey, Brandon Washington, Mitchell Van Dyk and Demetrius Rhaney could be heard from before preseason is finished.

DEFENSIVE LINEMEN (9)

Chris Long
Robert Quinn
William Hayes
Eugene Sims
Michael Brockers
Kendall Langford
Aaron Donald
Alex Carrington
Michael Sam


The first eight listed are all but locks barring injury, but the Rams have kept a ninth defensive lineman each of the past two seasons. Sam didn't hurt his cause with a solid preseason debut but Ethan Westbrooks is beginning to push him and Sam is still refining his special-teams work. I considered elevating Westbrooks this week but think another strong week is needed before making that move.

LINEBACKERS (6)

James Laurinaitis
Alec Ogletree
Jo-Lonn Dunbar
Ray-Ray Armstrong
Daren Bates
Phillip Steward


Don't be surprised if the final tally here looks different than the above. Beyond the first four listed, there could be plenty of room for change, including the potential for a veteran to provide depth. Bates is a strong special-teams player and should stick, but Steward will face plenty of competition from an eager group of undrafted rookies.

CORNERBACKS (5)

Janoris Jenkins
Trumaine Johnson
Lamarcus Joyner
Brandon McGee
E.J. Gaines


With plenty of preseason to go, there's a lot that can change but this group seems to be getting some clarity. The first four here appear to be in good shape and Gaines' strong preseason debut complements what has been a good camp for him. He seems to be in the driver's seat for the next spot. One player that shouldn't be forgotten here is Darren Woodard, who started against the Saints and had a nice pass breakup. Greg Reid and Marcus Roberson will be heard from before this is over and the Rams might end up keeping a sixth corner rather than a fifth safety.

SAFETIES (5)

T.J. McDonald
Rodney McLeod
Maurice Alexander
Cody Davis
Matt Daniels


The Rams have kept five safeties under Fisher, in no small part because of special-teams duties. But I'm beginning to wonder if that could change in favor of a sixth cornerback. It's looked in camp like the Rams have more talent at corner than safety, which could cause them to alter the balance at the two positions in terms of numbers. The first three here should be safe and Davis' special-teams contributions are valued, but he struggled on defense against New Orleans. Daniels needs to get it going to get another shot. Christian Bryant is finally practicing but has been nondescript on the field.

SPECIALISTS (3)

Johnny Hekker
Greg Zuerlein
Jake McQuaide


It would take a serious injury to disturb this strong trio.
 

bluecoconuts

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Bouncing Pead is an interesting move, although a lot of fans call for it, I'm not sure the coaching staff does so this year. Although with the Mason selection it sure does make it easier.
 

CoachO

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Wagoner is still butt hurt that the Rams didn't pick Watkins, so he doesn't put any credence into the existing WR group. This could be him just not thinking it matters. LOL
 

lockdnram21

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I don't think Cody Davis will make the team. He's playing exactly how he played last preseason. He's just not that good
 

junkman

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Bayer over Cunningham seems like it could be a plus move.

I'm starting to think we keep Westbrooks and release Carrington.

I'm also starting to think we keep Roberson (6th CB) and release Daniels (down to 4 Ss). Having Joyner as an occasional S helps this choice.

Gilbert got a lot of work, but he is still really raw. I think we try to stash him on the practice squad and keep a 5th RB (Pead or Reynolds), both who have excelled in special teams (esp if we keep the extra CB in lieu of a safety).
 

junkman

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I don't think Cody Davis will make the team. He's playing exactly how he played last preseason. He's just not that good

Davis or Daniels will make the team, I have to think. Yeah, Davis had the ugly missed tackles (I think there were 2 against Saints), most notably getting trucked by Ingram but Ingram is known for that. But he had a bunch of tackles on the game (4 solo) and is performing well on special teams. On the missed tackles, at least he's getting in position to take his shot which is 90% of the battle. I'm not thinking he's "THE GUY" at S, but a functional backup and core special teams player, sure.

By comparison, I'm not seeing Daniels at all.
 

Alan

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Athos liking Moe:
I'd try and stash Moe on the PS.
According to the camp reports he catches everything that's in range and thrown to him. Having said that, I don't think he has much upside.
Here are some combine numbers that FRO posted:
40 Time- 4.74 (terrible)
3 Cone- 6.53 (elite)
20 yard shuttle- 3.96 (excellent)
Vertical- 36" (good)
Hand size- 9-7/8"

Where do you find a place on your team for a WR who runs a 4.74 40? You can't coach up speed.
 

CoachO

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According to the camp reports he catches everything that's in range and thrown to him. Having said that, I don't think he has much upside.
Here are some combine numbers that FRO posted:
40 Time- 4.74 (terrible)
3 Cone- 6.53 (elite)
20 yard shuttle- 3.96 (excellent)
Vertical- 36" (good)
Hand size- 9-7/8"

Where do you find a place on your team for a WR who runs a 4.74 40? You can't coach up speed.

If you are only looking at his 40 time, then, you are right. But how many WRs have run that time, and have been very successful. What you seem to be overlooking, his times in the other "quickness" drills are absolutely better than needed to be an ideal slot receiver. Which is what he is. He gets open, and catches the ball.

I am not saying this will happen, but if given the choice of keeping a 4th year Austin Pettis, in the final year of his contract, @ $1.4M ($144,567 dead $ if released), or a TJ Moe at $420,000 to be the backup slot receiver, I might seriously take a look at it.
 

JackDRams

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If you are only looking at his 40 time, then, you are right. But how many WRs have run that time, and have been very successful. What you seem to be overlooking, his times in the other "quickness" drills are absolutely better than needed to be an ideal slot receiver. Which is what he is. He gets open, and catches the ball.

I am not saying this will happen, but if given the choice of keeping a 4th year Austin Pettis, in the final year of his contract, @ $1.4M ($144,567 dead $ if released), or a TJ Moe at $420,000 to be the backup slot receiver, I might seriously take a look at it.

I agree, though instead of Pettis I would be deciding between Givens and Moe in your scenario. Not sure what Givens makes, money wise. But at least Pettis is sure handed and solid in the red zone. Of course, Givens could get back on track. But who knows?
 

Alan

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CoachO thinking he can play a roll:
If you are only looking at his 40 time, then, you are right. But how many WRs have run that time, and have been very successful. What you seem to be overlooking, his times in the other "quickness" drills are absolutely better than needed to be an ideal slot receiver. Which is what he is. He gets open, and catches the ball.

I am not saying this will happen, but if given the choice of keeping a 4th year Austin Pettis, in the final year of his contract, @ $1.4M ($144,567 dead $ if released), or a TJ Moe at $420,000 to be the backup slot receiver, I might seriously take a look at it.
That's an excellent point you're making about his other measurables CoachO. Still, that 40 time is a little too slow for me. Most of the WRs who were successful in the NFL with slow 40 times played in a different era. My point here is that he looks to me like a marginal WR who will always hover around the 5th or 6th best WR on anyone's team. Someone you're always looking to upgrade.

Here's an interesting article about that very subject that might interest some of our posters:
http://www.mercurynews.com/raiders/ci_25695466/nfl-draft-is-40-yard-dash-really-that
NFL draft: Is the 40-yard dash really that important?
By Jon Wilner

Shayne Skov trained three months for the most important five seconds of his life. But the Stanford linebacker was far from his best when the moment arrived. With NFL scouts watching his every step during a predraft workout, Skov chugged along to an underwhelming time in the 40-yard dash.

A few yards away, one of the greatest players in NFL history watched the proceedings with indifference. "The 40 is overrated," Jerry Rice said. "I never ran a good 40, but they couldn't catch me."

The Hall of Fame is filled with players whose 40-yard dash times were considered mediocre, yet fans, media and draftniks alike are obsessed with the 40. Unlike many of the tools used to evaluate prospects, the 40 is visible, it's quantifiable, and it plays to our visceral love of speed.

In short, it's great theater.

"We've made it into an event," said ESPN analyst Herm Edwards, a former coach of the Jets and Chiefs. "We can't wait to talk about the 40. Who runs the fastest?"

That's not to suggest it's irrelevant on draft day. Every player card in every draft room in the NFL has four things: name, height, weight, and 40 time.


How did a training camp drill conceived six decades ago become an essential tool for scouts and a tireless topic for talking heads? Does it really matter if one wide receiver runs a 4.40, the benchmark for elite speed, and another runs a 4.45?


And why the heck is it 40 yards?


COPYCAT CONCEPT

After a record-setting career at Mississippi Valley State, Jerry Rice did what every draft prospect has done for eons: He worked out for NFL scouts on campus and at the scouting combine, a one-stop-shopping event in February that's used to evaluate the top prospects.

"We timed Jerry in the 40 nine times," said former Dallas Cowboys general manager Gil Brandt, "and he never got under 4.55."


File: Former San Francisco 49ers wide receiver Jerry Rice,80, takes the field before halftime celebration retirement of his jersey number 80 at Candlestick Park in San Francisco, Calif. on Monday, September 20, 2010. (Josie Lepe/Mercury News) ( Josie Lepe )
Brandt popularized the 40, but he wasn't the first to use it. In the 1950s, Cleveland Browns coach Paul Brown is believed to have timed his players in the 40 in training camp as a means of evaluating potential starters. Why Brown picked 40 yards is a secret he took to the grave.

"I'm not completely sure Paul had them run 40 yards," Brandt added. "Nobody seems to know for sure."

Brandt took notice of the concept, and when the Cowboys were formed in 1960, he began timing draft prospects over 30, 50 and 100 yards. Eventually, he refined the system, determining that 40 was, in fact, the best distance for skill-position players and 20 yards the ideal for linemen. Soon, the competition was doing the same -- it was a copycat league back then, too.


Oregon Duck quarterback Marcus Mariota (8) has a pass defected by Stanford Cardinal Shayne Skov (11) in the second quarter at Stanford Stadium in Stanford, Calif., on Thursday, Nov. 7, 2013. (Karl Mondon/Bay Area News Group) ( Karl Mondon )
Times were recorded for every top prospect at every position. Charts were compiled and used for historical reference. At one point, Brandt said, the Cowboys determined that if a receiver ran the 40 in 4.65 seconds, he had a 1 percent chance of making the Pro Bowl. Faster than 4.65, and the Pro Bowl odds climbed.

So meticulous was Brandt that he visited famed Stanford track coach Payton Jordan to learn more about speed and sprinting. The meeting included a lesson from Jordan in how to time more precisely.

When the NFL created the combine in 1985, the 40 was the centerpiece. It has retained the exalted position, providing a historical standards and test of athleticism.

"It's about filling in the boxes," Edwards said. "The combine gives you the ability to measure certain positions by the traits of players in the past.

"If a wide receiver runs a 4.4, he gets a blue (sufficient) check. If he runs a 4.6, he gets a red (warning) check."

ALL ABOUT THE COMBINE

As Skov struggled through his workout, David Spitz looked on anxiously. A strength and speed coach from San Ramon, he spent months preparing Skov for his session in front of the scouts.

"I'm always nervous when I watch the guys," he said. "It's a helpless feeling."

Spitz is the founder of California Strength, a gritty gym tucked away in an East Bay office park. Spitz spends most of the year training 100 junior high and high school athletes, but for two months every winter, he prepares draft prospects for the combine and on-campus workouts.

The prospects spend all day, every day at California Strength. (Many drop out of college for the winter, then re-enroll in the spring.) They train twice daily and undergo massage therapy. Their meals are prepared by a chef and specifically designed for each player's nutritional needs.

Spitz began training prospects for the combine five years ago. Most of his clients are from the Bay Area, and many attend either Stanford or Oregon, including tight end Zach Ertz and linebacker Kiko Alonso. ("I haven't clicked with the Cal kids," Spitz said.). The two-month sessions, which cost approximately $10,000, are typically paid for by the players' agents.

Spitz, 37, and a team of former NFL players prepare prospects for every drill at the combine -- ex-49er Brent Jones handles the tight ends -- while former general managers parachute in to provide insight into the interview phase.

But the heart of Spitz's training program is the 40, and he isn't alone. With millions of dollars riding on a prospect's draft position and with draft position partly dependent on the 40, combine training centers have sprouted up across the country. Two of the best-known are the IMG Academy in Bradenton, Florida, and Athletes' Performance Institute in Phoenix.

"I look at it this way: Film and statistics are like a player's grade-point average, and the combine results are like the SATs," said Spitz, who attended Monte Vista High and was a hammer thrower at USC.

"And at the combine, the 40 is everything."

A prospect's 40 time is a function of stride frequency and stride length. The former is "tough to manipulate," according to Spitz. But stride length, which results from the force with which each foot strikes the ground, can be improved through weight training and proper body mechanics.

Spitz studies tendon and muscle structure, examines spine and head positioning, overhauls dietary habits -- all with the goal of shaving a few tenths of a second off the baseline 40 time.

His clients start training in early January and run the 40 once to establish a baseline number. They won't run the full distance again until the combine and instead focus their training on the various phases of the 40.

A prospect who covers the distance in 4.5 seconds typically takes 1.5 seconds to cover the initial 10 yards, which is called the drive phase, and then 1 second for each 10-yard chunk of the acceleration phase.

"The first 10 is critical," Spitz said. "That's where you set the arm mechanics and head position. That's where you can shave the most time."

'FILM DOESN'T LIE'

Skov didn't run the 40 at the combine. As some prospects do, he opted to train for an additional month and run at Stanford's annual pro day in mid-March. A hamstring injury days before the event forced him to reschedule, and he hadn't fully recovered when scouts from 10 teams convened on a warm April morning.

Hoping to post a time in the 4.8s -- within the accepted range for run-stopping inside linebackers -- Skov clocked a 5.1. He couldn't hide the disappointment in his eyes but tried to with his words.

"It's a metric," he said. "My film is the greatest piece of my resume."

Most NFL teams would agree. In the words of 49ers general manager Trent Baalke, "the film doesn't lie," and Skov has dozens of high-level performances to his credit.

More significant than the 40 time, not only for Skov but all prospects, is what scouts call "play speed." It's established by analyzing film and determining whether a prospect plays above, below or to the standard for his position.

Does an offensive lineman possess the quickness to get to the perimeter in time to make a vital block? Does a linebacker have the lateral speed to drop into pass coverage? Does a running back have the burst to reach the so-called second level of the defense?

No one would ever confuse Marcus Allen for a sprinter, but the Hall of Famer had a knack for knowing just when to cut, thereby forcing would-be tacklers to break stride, and thus played faster than his straight-ahead speed.

Arizona receiver Larry Fitzgerald, an eight-time Pro Bowl selection, ran a 4.63, below average for the position.

Seattle's Richard Sherman, regarded as the best cornerback in the league, ran a 4.53 at the combine, the 23rd fastest time for his position.

At the same time, only two of the 10 fastest players to enter the NFL this century have become All Pros: New York Jets tailback Chris Johnson (with Tennessee) and Houston kick returner Jerome Mathis.

"We rate their play speed, then go to a pro day or the combine and get the real time," Baalke said. "You hope they match. What's hard is when you like a player and think he plays fast, and then he runs slow. Then you have a real tough dilemma to sort through."

The 49ers weight 40 times differently for each position. It's far less important for linemen -- many teams use 10- and 20-yard dash times to evaluate the big fellas -- than skill position players. Schemes also matter. An outside linebacker in a 3-4 alignment, for instance, spends more time chasing down the quarterback than an outside linebacker in a 4-3.

"The position where the 40 holds the most weight is cornerback," said NFL Network analyst Daniel Jeremiah, a former scout for the Browns, Ravens and Eagles. "If you're a receiver who runs a 4.6 like (Anquan) Boldin, but you have short-area quickness and strong hands, the 40 isn't a big deal.

"But if you're a cornerback who runs a 4.6 and you're facing a receiver who runs a 4.4, it doesn't matter how good your ball skills are."

That might explain the case of Tye Hill, a cornerback from Clemson initially projected to be a mid-round pick in the 2006 draft. After posting the fastest 40 time at the combine (4.31 seconds), Hill shot up the draft boards and was ultimately selected in the middle of the first round by St. Louis.

Six years and four teams later, he was out of football.

"The 40 doesn't equate to football speed," Rice said. "A guy could run a great 40, and then you put pads on him and he doesn't have lateral movement or he can't come out of his cuts. He just doesn't have it."

For more on college sports, see Jon Wilner's College Hotline atblogs.mercurynews.com/collegesports. Contact him at jwilner@mercurynews.com or 408-920-5716.


Al Davis' emphasis on drafting for speed slowed the Raiders' progress. PAGE 6


Chris Johnson's 40-yard dash time during the 2008 NFL combine, the fastest recorded since the league began keeping official records in 1999. For the complete list of the fastest times, go to PAGE 6.
 

CoachO

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I agree, though instead of Pettis I would be deciding between Givens and Moe in your scenario. Not sure what Givens makes, money wise. But at least Pettis is sure handed and solid in the red zone. Of course, Givens could get back on track. But who knows?

Givens still has 2 years left on his rookie contract, and is schedule to make $570K this year plus a $124K bonus counts towards a cap number of $694K. Dead $ would be $248K if released (2 yrs of his bonus)
 
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fearsomefour

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According to the camp reports he catches everything that's in range and thrown to him. Having said that, I don't think he has much upside.
Here are some combine numbers that FRO posted:
40 Time- 4.74 (terrible)
3 Cone- 6.53 (elite)
20 yard shuttle- 3.96 (excellent)
Vertical- 36" (good)
Hand size- 9-7/8"

Where do you find a place on your team for a WR who runs a 4.74 40? You can't coach up speed.
Those numbers tell me he either just ran a bad 40 or he is not a straight line guy. That's fine. The other numbers show a guy who can be explosive and change direction.
I want a receiver with good hands, can cut without shuffling his feet or breaking stride and can be explosive to creat space....40 time is way down the list for me.
 

CoachO

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That's an excellent point you're making about his other measurables CoachO. Still, that 40 time is a little too slow for me. Most of the WRs who were successful in the NFL with slow 40 times played in a different era. My point here is that he looks to me like a marginal WR who will always hover around the 5th or 6th best WR on anyone's team. Someone you're always looking to upgrade.

Here's an interesting article about that very subject that might interest some of our posters:
http://www.mercurynews.com/raiders/ci_25695466/nfl-draft-is-40-yard-dash-really-that

I get it, but I am just not one to put as much stock into 40 times as others obviously do. I prefer to watch the actual game footage, and what I see at training camp, and all I see is a guy who gets open in tight space, and makes plays. No one is saying he will ever run away from people in the open field, although he sure seems to play faster than his "timed" speed. I recall a 70+ yard catch and scamper down the sideline for a TD at the end of a game in his last year at Mizzou when he sure seemed "fast enough".

So far in camp, I have seen him run away from someone who is supposed to be a whole lot faster (Greg Reid) on a crossing route, make the catch and turn it up field for a huge gain. Look, I get that its a long shot for him to make this roster, but like a few other guys out here, he won't embarrass himself or the team if put in that role.
 

BonifayRam

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I'm thinking the keeping of a soft handed TE pass catcher like Bayer & the fact that Jared can play many of the WR plays if needed makes the keeping of the 5 WR's very probable. Not so sure that Givens will be that 5th WR though. If he survives the final cuts he would be my WR to depart when Stedman Bailey returns. Not ready to bonce Pead yet @ RB for Reynolds. Still maintain that 10 OL'ers will be maintained.

I just do not see 5 safeties period. Much more probable of six CB than 5 safeties. Lb'ers is far from being set in my small brain cell. Now for my out of the world remark.....I would not be surprised if Carrington is beat out by Sam & Conrath is replaced by Westbrooks. Both those rookies outplayed those young vets by a long distance last Friday if that keeps up.......
 

FRO

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That 4th RB spot comes down to who is the special teams player. I think both Pead and Reynolds make it for the first 4 games. We will need both to fill the void Bailey leaves on special teams.
 

CoachO

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That 4th RB spot comes down to who is the special teams player. I think both Pead and Reynolds make it for the first 4 games. We will need both to fill the void Bailey leaves on special teams.

Interesting enough for me, Joyner is the one who took Bailey's spot as the gunner on the punt team Friday night. So, between having McGee, Joyner, and McLeod. they seem to have that covered,, no pun intended!