St. Louis Rams camp outlook: Fisher begins re-boot

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Jim Thomas | Sporting News
http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2 ... eff-fisher

Editor's note: With offseason work across the league coming to an end, the focus shifts to the steamy summer workouts ahead. To get you fully primed for the preseason and beyond, Sporting News provides in-depth looks at all 32 teams leading into training camp. Today: St. Louis Rams. Friday: Denver Broncos.

The Rams have a new head coach, a new general manager and a revamped front office. But they've been down this road many times. Including interims, Jeff Fisher is the team's sixth head coach since 2005; Les Snead is the fourth G.M. in that same span. Rams fans can only hope the team gets it right this time.

105150-650-366.jpg

St. Louis Rams quarterback Sam Bradford will ask his rookie receivers to make a much-needed impact, early in the season. (AP Photo)

At least in Fisher, they have someone who has done it before. Other than Dick Vermeil, Fisher's the first head coach with prior NFL head-coaching experience hired by the team since the franchise moved to St. Louis in 1995. Fisher has an air of confidence to him, doesn't sweat the small stuff and seems to have established instant credibility with his players. He inherited an older, talent-depleted roster, in an organization that has won only 15 of its last 80 games.

The opportunity to work with Sam Bradford helped lure Fisher back into coaching after a one-year hiatus. So did the fact that the Rams had the No. 2 overall draft pick, which they turned into multiple picks in a pre-draft trade with Washington.

What's new: Offense

In what has become an annual crusade to upgrade the wide receiver corps, the Rams used the first pick of the second round on Appalachian State's Brian Quick, and a fourth-round pick on Chris Givens of Wake Forest. Very few receivers are game-changers as rookies, but the Rams need Quick and Givens to contribute ASAP.

Quick has size, good-leaping ability and flashed dynamic playmaking ability in college. But now he's in the big leagues. Givens gives St. Louis its best deep speed since the under-achieving Donnie Avery, but also has some wiggle to his game.

The Rams brought veteran center Scott Wells to St. Louis from Green Bay in free agency with a $24 million contract, and have some young legs backing up running back Steven Jackson in Isaiah Pead.

Brian Schottenheimer is Bradford's third offensive coordinator in three seasons.

What's new: Defense

The goal here during the offseason was to get bigger -- but more importantly -- faster. The Rams should have seven new starters on defense this season, including first-round draft pick Michael Brockers at defensive tackle. Alongside him will be $24 million free agent pickup Kendall Langford, a former Dolphin.

In the secondary, cornerback Cortland Finnegan came from Tennessee in free agency in a $50 million deal. Rookie Janoris Jenkins, whose college career was marred by off-field woes, could end up as the other starting corner.

The Rams hope some combination of free agent pickups Jo-Lonn Dunbar, Mario Haggan and Rocky McIntosh will get the job done at outside linebacker.

The Rams lost new defensive coordinator Gregg Williams for the entire season and maybe longer because of his role in the New Orleans Bountygate scandal. The defense will be run by committee this season, with Fisher more involved than usual, along with assistant head coach Dave McGinnis and linebackers coach Blake Williams (Gregg's son) having central roles.

Camp goals

1. Get Bradford back on track. After a strong rookie year in 2010, Bradford regressed last season and appeared to lose confidence as the season progressed. A severe high-ankle sprain, which slowed or sidelined him for the final two-thirds of the season, didn't help matters. Neither did a puzzling scheme by coordinator Josh McDaniels, which frequently exposed Bradford to more pressure than necessary. Fisher likes to run the ball and Schottenheimer's approach figures to be more pragmatic than McDaniels', which should help Bradford.

2. Sort out the O-line. The Rams are counting on bounce-back seasons from young tackles Rodger Saffold and Jason Smith. A former No. 2 overall pick, Smith's career is at a crossroads because of repeated problems with concussions. The Rams are thin at this position, so there's little margin for error. Veterans Wells at center and right guard Harvey Dahl should be anchors, but there's a logjam of no-name players competing at the left guard spot manned in recent seasons by the now-retired Jacob Bell.

3. Find starters at OLB. Another problem area in recent seasons, the Rams simply haven't had much in the way of playmaking here, meaning talented middle linebacker James Laurinaitis hasn't had much help with run defense. Among the newcomers, Dunbar is young and undersized but runs well and could start on the weakside. Haggan is a veteran run-stuffer with excellent size who can also help on special teams. McIntosh lost his starting job at Washington last midseason, but the Rams are hoping a change of scenery will help and that he can be a solid contributor either at strong or weakside.

Breakout player

After splitting time with veteran James Hall as a rookie last season, 2011 first-round pick Robert Quinn will be an every-down player as the Rams' starting right defensive end. He flashed some of his pass-rush (and punt-blocking) skills last season, but now must do it on a full-time basis.

That includes shoring up his run defense, which was spotty at times last season. Not only did Quinn turn pro early coming out of North Carolina, but he was suspended for the entire 2010 season at North Carolina for NCAA rules violations. Judging by his strong work during the OTAs and spring minicamps, Quinn has knocked off the rust and could be an impact player in 2012.

"Robert's taken some big strides," said DE Chris Long, who had 13 sacks last season. "He's going to be the guy (on the D-line). He really will be. I'm dead serious. If he takes the steps I think he's going to take this year, I think he's going to be the guy."

Bottom line

Coaching changes always lead to roster upheaval, but the changes to the Rams' roster were extreme during the offseason. As a result, how quickly the team can develop any kind of chemistry remains to be seen. It's a critical year for Bradford to show he was worth of No. 1 overall draft status in 2010, but it's debatable whether there's enough talent around him -- both in terms of blocking and skill position players. On defense, the Rams are excited about the potential of the line and the secondary. But the talent pool was so shallow when Fisher arrived that it will be a steep climb back to respectability. Five or six wins probably is the ceiling, but would represent a good start for a team with two first-round picks in both the 2013 and '14 drafts.

Prediction: Fourth, NFC West

Jim Thomas covers the Rams for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch and Sporting News.
 

Memento

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bluecoconuts said:
Prediction: Fourth, NFC West

Fuck you, Jim Thomas.

I would like to echo that sentiment and add a "Go to hell, Jim Thomas!" to those thoughts.
 

BuiltRamTough

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Memento said:
bluecoconuts said:
Prediction: Fourth, NFC West

freak you, Jim Thomas.

I would like to echo that sentiment and add a "Go to hell, Jim Thomas!" to those thoughts.
7 new starters on D wow and a bunch on O and a whole new coaching staff this is so exciting I can't wait no longer!!!!!
 

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bluecoconuts said:
Prediction: Fourth, NFC West

Fuck you, Jim Thomas.

Bwaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahaha! JTs the best n u falkers know it. :tooth:

It's really disappointing to hear all this news on Quinn after pretty much everyone picked him to be their breakout player in previous stories. Let's hope he can get his shit together and is not distracted. The whole team needs to learn from this, and I hope the coaches make it so.
 

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BuiltRamTough said:
Memento said:
bluecoconuts said:
Prediction: Fourth, NFC West

freak you, Jim Thomas.

I would like to echo that sentiment and add a "Go to hell, Jim Thomas!" to those thoughts.
7 new starters on D wow and a bunch on O and a whole new coaching staff this is so exciting I can't wait no longer!!!!!

Well, have to disagree. First, on defense it's 6 new starters (DTs, OLBs, CBs) but 3 of those are not filling holes, they're replacing decent starters. That's a trade off--buy a Finnegan, who knows the system, or keep a Bartell and have some money to fill actual holes.

On offense, there's Wells, and it's possibly up to 5 new starters, depending on who ends up being the LOG, the 2nd TE, and the WRs.

My excitement comes as much from guys he kept as guys he added. This team is further along that an actual rebuild team would be.
 

ramsince62

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I think JT's article was a reasonably fair and balanced assessment (5 or 6) wins.....do I hope that lightening strikes twice as in 99, you bet. I also understand the excitement and expectation surrounding this new group of coaches and players. I firmly believe we're finally on the right track...then again, any improvement over the past 6+ years will look like a screaming success.

Rome wasn't built in a day, I suspect neither will be the next Ram dynasty, but it's coming folks, it's coming. :cool:
 

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ramsince62 said:
I think JT's article was a reasonably fair and balanced assessment (5 or 6) wins.....do I hope that lightening strikes twice as in 99, you bet. I also understand the excitement and expectation surrounding this new group of coaches and players. I firmly believe we're finally on the right track...then again, any improvement over the past 6+ years will look like a screaming success.

Rome wasn't built in a day, I suspect neither will be the next Ram dynasty, but it's coming folks, it's coming. :cool:

We differ.

For one thing, in this case, Rome was already half built. Fisher is not starting from scratch.

In fact when it comes to that, JT's write-up is one of the worst I've seen.

5-6 wins is an okay judgement call because there are a lot of unknowns and it's 2 new systems, offensive and defensive. But JT's idea that they are completely transforming the depth chart is not accurate.
 

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zn said:
ramsince62 said:
I think JT's article was a reasonably fair and balanced assessment (5 or 6) wins.....do I hope that lightening strikes twice as in 99, you bet. I also understand the excitement and expectation surrounding this new group of coaches and players. I firmly believe we're finally on the right track...then again, any improvement over the past 6+ years will look like a screaming success.

Rome wasn't built in a day, I suspect neither will be the next Ram dynasty, but it's coming folks, it's coming. :cool:

We differ.

For one thing, in this case, Rome was already half built. Fisher is not starting from scratch.

In fact when it comes to that, JT's write-up is one of the worst I've seen.

5-6 wins is an okay judgement call because there are a lot of unknowns and it's 2 new systems, offensive and defensive. But JT's idea that they are completely transforming the depth chart is not accurate.
It kind of is (accurate). By my count, there are 28 new guys on offense this year. Now, that's not to say who will or won't make the team, but that's still a lot of new bodies. On defense it's 24 new bodies. New kicker. New punter.

One could argue that he only traded one guy for another in some spots, but that's still a change-over in personnel, and that's what the focus of J.T.'s article is about. There are over 50 new players on this team now, and whether or not they're "starters" remains to be seen. It's still a big turnover from one year to another.
 

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zn said:
ramsince62 said:
I think JT's article was a reasonably fair and balanced assessment (5 or 6) wins.....do I hope that lightening strikes twice as in 99, you bet. I also understand the excitement and expectation surrounding this new group of coaches and players. I firmly believe we're finally on the right track...then again, any improvement over the past 6+ years will look like a screaming success.

Rome wasn't built in a day, I suspect neither will be the next Ram dynasty, but it's coming folks, it's coming. :cool:

We differ.

For one thing, in this case, Rome was already half built. Fisher is not starting from scratch.

In fact when it comes to that, JT's write-up is one of the worst I've seen.

5-6 wins is an okay judgement call because there are a lot of unknowns and it's 2 new systems, offensive and defensive. But JT's idea that they are completely transforming the depth chart is not accurate.
JT said:
He inherited an older, talent-depleted roster
This is where I give JT an F(U). The core of this team (outside of Jackson, who is merely an older RB) is young, and that core is very talented. The old part of the roster was the 10-12 veteran FA that were signed last year, most of them to 1-year contracts. This doesn't include Hall and Robbins who were also RFAs. Saying Fisher inherited them is certainly not true, since most of them were RFAs that were not re-signed.

I have to believe JT still holds a grudge against Spags.
 

Anonymous

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X said:
zn said:
ramsince62 said:
I think JT's article was a reasonably fair and balanced assessment (5 or 6) wins.....do I hope that lightening strikes twice as in 99, you bet. I also understand the excitement and expectation surrounding this new group of coaches and players. I firmly believe we're finally on the right track...then again, any improvement over the past 6+ years will look like a screaming success.

Rome wasn't built in a day, I suspect neither will be the next Ram dynasty, but it's coming folks, it's coming. :cool:

We differ.

For one thing, in this case, Rome was already half built. Fisher is not starting from scratch.

In fact when it comes to that, JT's write-up is one of the worst I've seen.

5-6 wins is an okay judgement call because there are a lot of unknowns and it's 2 new systems, offensive and defensive. But JT's idea that they are completely transforming the depth chart is not accurate.
It kind of is (accurate). By my count, there are 28 new guys on offense this year. Now, that's not to say who will or won't make the team, but that's still a lot of new bodies. On defense it's 24 new bodies. New kicker. New punter.

One could argue that he only traded one guy for another in some spots, but that's still a change-over in personnel, and that's what the focus of J.T.'s article is about. There are over 50 new players on this team now, and whether or not they're "starters" remains to be seen. It's still a big turnover from one year to another.

Every team turns over the roster and adds players. The key is starters. As it looks right now, Fisher could be starting anywhere from 8 to 6 inherited guys on offense, and 5 inherited guys on defense. That;s half or more than half of the 22, depending. Plus as I said on defense, 3 of the adds are not filling holes, they are replacing viable starters--so that has to do more with "getting your own guys in there," which is not rebuilding.

Now THIS is starting over. This is the 2008 opening day depth chart, with the guys Spags would keep (at least through 2010) underlined:

2008 Offensive Starters

QB Marc Bulger
RB Steven Jackson
WR Donnie Avery
WR Torry Holt
TE Anthony Becht
TE Joe Klopfenstein
LT Orlando Pace
LG Jacob Bell
C Nick Leckey
RG Richie Incognito
RT Alex Barron [/color]

2008 Defensive Starters

LDE Victor Adeyanju
LDT Clifton Ryan
RDT La'Roi Glover
RDE Chris Long
LLB Quinton Culberson
MLB Will Witherspoon
RLB Pisa Tinoisamoa
LCB Ronald Bartell
RCB Fakhir Brown
SS Corey Chavous
FS O.J. Atogwe

THAT'S a rebuild.
 

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zn said:
X said:
zn said:
ramsince62 said:
I think JT's article was a reasonably fair and balanced assessment (5 or 6) wins.....do I hope that lightening strikes twice as in 99, you bet. I also understand the excitement and expectation surrounding this new group of coaches and players. I firmly believe we're finally on the right track...then again, any improvement over the past 6+ years will look like a screaming success.

Rome wasn't built in a day, I suspect neither will be the next Ram dynasty, but it's coming folks, it's coming. :cool:

We differ.

For one thing, in this case, Rome was already half built. Fisher is not starting from scratch.

In fact when it comes to that, JT's write-up is one of the worst I've seen.

5-6 wins is an okay judgement call because there are a lot of unknowns and it's 2 new systems, offensive and defensive. But JT's idea that they are completely transforming the depth chart is not accurate.
It kind of is (accurate). By my count, there are 28 new guys on offense this year. Now, that's not to say who will or won't make the team, but that's still a lot of new bodies. On defense it's 24 new bodies. New kicker. New punter.

One could argue that he only traded one guy for another in some spots, but that's still a change-over in personnel, and that's what the focus of J.T.'s article is about. There are over 50 new players on this team now, and whether or not they're "starters" remains to be seen. It's still a big turnover from one year to another.

Every team turns over the roster and adds players. The key is starters. As it looks right now, Fisher could be starting anywhere from 8 to 6 inherited guys on offense, and 5 inherited guys on defense. That;s half or more than half of the 22, depending. Plus as I said on defense, 3 of the adds are not filling holes, they are replacing viable starters--so that has to do more with "getting your own guys in there," which is not rebuilding.

Now THIS is starting over. This is the 2008 opening day depth chart, with the guys Spags would keep (at least through 2010) underlined:

2008 Offensive Starters

QB Marc Bulger
RB Steven Jackson
WR Donnie Avery
WR Torry Holt
TE Anthony Becht
TE Joe Klopfenstein
LT Orlando Pace
LG Jacob Bell
C Nick Leckey
RG Richie Incognito
RT Alex Barron [/color]

2008 Defensive Starters

LDE Victor Adeyanju
LDT Clifton Ryan
RDT La'Roi Glover
RDE Chris Long
LLB Quinton Culberson
MLB Will Witherspoon
RLB Pisa Tinoisamoa
LCB Ronald Bartell
RCB Fakhir Brown
SS Corey Chavous
FS O.J. Atogwe

THAT'S a rebuild.
Yeah, I get that. After two years the roster became markedly different here. What I'm saying is, there are 50 or so new guys here, and we don't know how it'll pan out yet. I agree that it's nowhere near what happened here with the previous guys, but again, it's not over yet. I think the guys we end up keeping, who Fisher "inherited" are (in no particular order)

Bradford
Jackson
Saffold
Amendola
Kendricks
Salas

Long
Quinn
Laurinaitis
Stewart
Fletcher
Murphy

Everyone else, I think, could be gone by 2013. Conceivably.

That's a lot more than 2009.
 

Anonymous

Guest
X said:
zn said:
X said:
zn said:
ramsince62 said:
I think JT's article was a reasonably fair and balanced assessment (5 or 6) wins.....do I hope that lightening strikes twice as in 99, you bet. I also understand the excitement and expectation surrounding this new group of coaches and players. I firmly believe we're finally on the right track...then again, any improvement over the past 6+ years will look like a screaming success.

Rome wasn't built in a day, I suspect neither will be the next Ram dynasty, but it's coming folks, it's coming. :cool:

We differ.

For one thing, in this case, Rome was already half built. Fisher is not starting from scratch.

In fact when it comes to that, JT's write-up is one of the worst I've seen.

5-6 wins is an okay judgement call because there are a lot of unknowns and it's 2 new systems, offensive and defensive. But JT's idea that they are completely transforming the depth chart is not accurate.
It kind of is (accurate). By my count, there are 28 new guys on offense this year. Now, that's not to say who will or won't make the team, but that's still a lot of new bodies. On defense it's 24 new bodies. New kicker. New punter.

One could argue that he only traded one guy for another in some spots, but that's still a change-over in personnel, and that's what the focus of J.T.'s article is about. There are over 50 new players on this team now, and whether or not they're "starters" remains to be seen. It's still a big turnover from one year to another.

Every team turns over the roster and adds players. The key is starters. As it looks right now, Fisher could be starting anywhere from 8 to 6 inherited guys on offense, and 5 inherited guys on defense. That;s half or more than half of the 22, depending. Plus as I said on defense, 3 of the adds are not filling holes, they are replacing viable starters--so that has to do more with "getting your own guys in there," which is not rebuilding.

Now THIS is starting over. This is the 2008 opening day depth chart, with the guys Spags would keep (at least through 2010) underlined:

2008 Offensive Starters

QB Marc Bulger
RB Steven Jackson
WR Donnie Avery
WR Torry Holt
TE Anthony Becht
TE Joe Klopfenstein
LT Orlando Pace
LG Jacob Bell
C Nick Leckey
RG Richie Incognito
RT Alex Barron [/color]

2008 Defensive Starters

LDE Victor Adeyanju
LDT Clifton Ryan
RDT La'Roi Glover
RDE Chris Long
LLB Quinton Culberson
MLB Will Witherspoon
RLB Pisa Tinoisamoa
LCB Ronald Bartell
RCB Fakhir Brown
SS Corey Chavous
FS O.J. Atogwe

THAT'S a rebuild.
Yeah, I get that. After two years the roster became markedly different here. What I'm saying is, there are 50 or so new guys here, and we don't know how it'll pan out yet. I agree that it's nowhere near what happened here with the previous guys, but again, it's not over yet. I think the guys we end up keeping, who Fisher "inherited" are (in no particular order)

Bradford
Jackson
Saffold
Amendola
Kendricks
Salas

Long
Quinn
Laurinaitis
Stewart
Fletcher
Murphy

Everyone else, I think, could be gone by 2013. Conceivably.

That's a lot more than 2009.


There's 50 or so new guys on a 90 man roster.

Let's pretend for a moment the old regime stayed. They would have had a large number of 1 year contracts and in-season injury replacements who were not coming back. Once THOSE guys get dumped--and that is mostly who Fisher dumped---and once they expanded the roster from 80 to 90, then the old regime could have added up to 50 guys too.

Meanwhile I don't count that because it has nothing to do with how the starters perform. The fact that they have Turner on the depth chart now, not LeVoir, has nothing to do with how the starters line up.

Half or more than half of the starters are returning, along with a long list of inherited guys. That's not a rebuild. That's a "keep adding on to what's already there," which is just not a rebuild. What happened in 2009 was a rebuild.
 

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zn said:
Half or more than half of the starters are returning, along with a long list of inherited guys. That's not a rebuild. That's a "keep adding on to what's already there," which is just not a rebuild. What happened in 2009 was a rebuild.
Who said anything about a rebuild? I think you were the first to introduce that word in this thread. My statement is about turn-over. Swapping out depth for new depth. Starting rookies over other guys, bringing in competition for starting spots, things like that.

I'm not even talking about roster comparisons, and I'm not interested in doing that anymore. The difference between the two coaches is very pronounced in how they 'build' rosters anyway, so it was bound to happen that Fisher would make a bunch of changes. And we haven't even gotten into camp yet, so like I said, everything could look different by next year.
 

Anonymous

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X said:
Who said anything about a rebuild? I think you were the first to introduce that word in this thread. My statement is about turn-over. Swapping out depth for new depth. Starting rookies over other guys, bringing in competition for starting spots, things like that.

I'm not even talking about roster comparisons, and I'm not interested in doing that anymore. The difference between the two coaches is very pronounced in how they 'build' rosters anyway, so it was bound to happen that Fisher would make a bunch of changes. And we haven't even gotten into camp yet, so like I said, everything could look different by next year.

#1, I don't see any difference in how they build rosters. I see Fisher has free agency money and got the 2012 trade bonanza. I am not sure what you see that's different.

#2. Just to clarify about the turnover. I think the difference in turnover between a Fisher and a Spags Who Did Not Get Fired is about 10 guys or so.

To back that up I looked at the numbers. (I have a conclusion in the end if you want to skip the math and heavy lifting. I mostly do this cause I am just curious myself.)


Near as I can make out, at the end of 2011, they had 74 players both on the roster and on IR.

Fisher cut 38. That's 36 remaining. (This leaves 3-4 unaccounted for but that's okay for now.)

The way I see it, the cuts break down into several groups:

Group 1. In-season replacements who were never going to stick anyway. Also in this category: injured players who had no real shot of returning. Thats: Atchison, Hood, Brian Jackson, M. Johnson, LeVoir, Drew Miller, Nick Miller, Ness, Nixon, Porter, Chris Smith, Spach, Welch, & Tony Wragge. Plus the injured guys like Clayton and Al Harris. That's 16.

Group 2. The marginal guys who were older or just talent lite and/or didn't fit what the new regime wanted or were just done. I include under that Ah You, Bajema, Butler, Curry, Feeley, G.Gibson, Goldberg, Kehl, King, Norwood, & C.Williams. That's 11.

Group 3. Starters or key back-ups they just didn't want back because they were just done or at least spent: Bell, Jason Brown, Josh Brown, Jones, Poppinga, & Robbins. That's 6

Group 4. Viable starters who could still play presumably but they replaced them with system fits and familiar faces: Bannan, Bartell, Chamberlain, & Hall. That's 4.

Group 5. Mutual parting of the ways for obvious reasons: Lloyd. That's 1.

Out of those, just speculating, and guessing, and hypthesizing, n such, how many would have had a very strong shot at staying just on the 90 if the old regime had stayed? I count 11: Ah You, Bannan, Bartell, Chamberlain, Curry (special teams), Gibson (Flajole pet), Goldberg (Loney pet), Hall, Kehl, King, & Lloyd.

I have no idea about the 2 kickers. They were clearly not doing so well last year.

So let's go with my 11. It may be more cause they mighta liked a couple of the injury pick-ups.

If it's 11, then they have 47 remaining.

To reach 90, they would need 43.

How do they get them? They would most likely do what this regime did: trade for a lot of draft picks, buy some free agents (just at different positions), and hit the UDFAs hard like they did in 2010 and 2009.

We can quibble about my 11. It could be this or that guy more. Either way it's the difference between 50 (Fisher) and 40 something (Old Regime).

To me, then, a lot of the APPEARANCE of wholesale change comes in group 1, plus group 4. (I think the Previous Guys would have stuck with a lot of guys from Groups 2 and 4).

THE PROMISED "SKIP THE MATH" CONCLUSION:

Now if the old regime stayed and they kept 47 or so guys instead of 36, would we say they were massively turning over the roster? If yes it applies to both of them. If no then that's a very marginal difference--10 guys who include the Turners and Mulligans of the new regime v. the Curry's and Gary Gibsons of the old regime.

In short, I think we would have seen an influx of 40-50 no matter what happened. There are 2 main reasons for that: 1. the 16 guys who were just in-season injury replacements, and 2. the expansion from an 80 to 90 man pre-season roster. That's 26 guys right there.

And the guy who said "rebuilding" in so many words was Thomas. That's basically who I am disputing. I think his take on these things is off track. His words: "changes to the Rams' roster were extreme during the offseason".

I just dont' think he's right.
 

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zn said:
X said:
Who said anything about a rebuild? I think you were the first to introduce that word in this thread. My statement is about turn-over. Swapping out depth for new depth. Starting rookies over other guys, bringing in competition for starting spots, things like that.

I'm not even talking about roster comparisons, and I'm not interested in doing that anymore. The difference between the two coaches is very pronounced in how they 'build' rosters anyway, so it was bound to happen that Fisher would make a bunch of changes. And we haven't even gotten into camp yet, so like I said, everything could look different by next year.

#1, I don't see any difference in how they build rosters. I see Fisher has free agency money and got the 2012 trade bonanza. I am not sure what you see that's different.

#2. Just to clarify about the turnover. I think the difference in turnover between a Fisher and a Spags Who Did Not Get Fired is about 10 guys or so.

To back that up I looked at the numbers. (I have a conclusion in the end if you want to skip the math and heavy lifting. I mostly do this cause I am just curious myself.)


Near as I can make out, at the end of 2011, they had 74 players both on the roster and on IR.

Fisher cut 38. That's 36 remaining. (This leaves 3-4 unaccounted for but that's okay for now.)

The way I see it, the cuts break down into several groups:

Group 1. In-season replacements who were never going to stick anyway. Also in this category: injured players who had no real shot of returning. Thats: Atchison, Hood, Brian Jackson, M. Johnson, LeVoir, Drew Miller, Nick Miller, Ness, Nixon, Porter, Chris Smith, Spach, Welch, & Tony Wragge. Plus the injured guys like Clayton and Al Harris. That's 16.

Group 2. The marginal guys who were older or just talent lite and/or didn't fit what the new regime wanted or were just done. I include under that Ah You, Bajema, Butler, Curry, Feeley, G.Gibson, Goldberg, Kehl, King, Norwood, & C.Williams. That's 11.

Group 3. Starters or key back-ups they just didn't want back because they were just done or at least spent: Bell, Jason Brown, Josh Brown, Jones, Poppinga, & Robbins. That's 6

Group 4. Viable starters who could still play presumably but they replaced them with system fits and familiar faces: Bannan, Bartell, Chamberlain, & Hall. That's 4.

Group 5. Mutual parting of the ways for obvious reasons: Lloyd. That's 1.

Out of those, just speculating, and guessing, and hypthesizing, n such, how many would have had a very strong shot at staying just on the 90 if the old regime had stayed? I count 11: Ah You, Bannan, Bartell, Chamberlain, Curry (special teams), Gibson (Flajole pet), Goldberg (Loney pet), Hall, Kehl, King, & Lloyd.

I have no idea about the 2 kickers. They were clearly not doing so well last year.

So let's go with my 11. It may be more cause they mighta liked a couple of the injury pick-ups.

If it's 11, then they have 47 remaining.

To reach 90, they would need 43.

How do they get them? They would most likely do what this regime did: trade for a lot of draft picks, buy some free agents (just at different positions), and hit the UDFAs hard like they did in 2010 and 2009.

We can quibble about my 11. It could be this or that guy more. Either way it's the difference between 50 (Fisher) and 40 something (Old Regime).

To me, then, a lot of the APPEARANCE of wholesale change comes in group 1, plus group 4. (I think the Previous Guys would have stuck with a lot of guys from Groups 2 and 4).

THE PROMISED "SKIP THE MATH" CONCLUSION:

Now if the old regime stayed and they kept 47 or so guys instead of 36, would we say they were massively turning over the roster? If yes it applies to both of them. If no then that's a very marginal difference--10 guys who include the Turners and Mulligans of the new regime v. the Curry's and Gary Gibsons of the old regime.

In short, I think we would have seen an influx of 40-50 no matter what happened. There are 2 main reasons for that: 1. the 16 guys who were just in-season injury replacements, and 2. the expansion from an 80 to 90 man pre-season roster. That's 26 guys right there.

And the guy who said "rebuilding" in so many words was Thomas. That's basically who I am disputing. I think his take on these things is off track. His words: "changes to the Rams' roster were extreme during the offseason".

I just dont' think he's right.
Well, here's where the disconnect is. Thomas didn't say "rebuilding." He said "changes to the Rams' roster were extreme." He's right. How it compares to what Spagnuolo did, may have done, or *would* have done is irrelevant. It's 50+ guys. I understand that there was an abundance of plug-n-play one year contract guys who would have been gone anyway, but that doesn't take away from his point. Those guys had to be signed to one-year contracts because there was no way to evaluate them during a truncated off-season. One or two of them may have stuck around, but several were absolutely done after 2011 regardless (Harris, for example).

I do see a difference in the way Fisher and Spagnuolo build a roster, and frankly I'm surprised you don't. Spagnuolo wouldn't have drafted Jenkins, for example. Fisher likes speed and athleticism over more NFL-ready guys. He believes he can coach athletic players up. Spagnuolo wasn't like that. He wanted smart guys who possessed a certain moral character, and he wanted them to be ready to play right away. He wanted 'system fits' as well. Granted all coaches are looking for system fits, but it appears to me that Fisher would much rather have athletic freaks who he can coach into being system fits. That's the difference I see.

I think you're too hung up on the whole "rebuilding" thing, and that's not my focus. It doesn't appear it's Thomas' focus either. I'm not taking anything away from Spagnuolo/Devaney either. They were NEVER in the position to be able to turn one draft pick into so many, and that's a fantastic thing for Fisher/Snead to have been able to do. It's great that they walked into a situation where they weren't shackled by astronomical rookie contracts. It's also part of the reason why there's going to be a lot of turnover this year, and the next two years as well.
 

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Well, here's where the disconnect is. Thomas didn't say "rebuilding." He said "changes to the Rams' roster were extreme." He's right. How it compares to what Spagnuolo did, may have done, or *would* have done is irrelevant. It's 50+ guys. I understand that there was an abundance of plug-n-play one year contract guys who would have been gone anyway, but that doesn't take away from his point. Those guys had to be signed to one-year contracts because there was no way to evaluate them during a truncated off-season. One or two of them may have stuck around, but several were absolutely done after 2011 regardless (Harris, for example).

I do see a difference in the way Fisher and Spagnuolo build a roster, and frankly I'm surprised you don't. Spagnuolo wouldn't have drafted Jenkins, for example.
Fisher likes speed and athleticism over more NFL-ready guys. He believes he can coach athletic players up. Spagnuolo wasn't like that. He wanted smart guys who possessed a certain moral character, and he wanted them to be ready to play right away. He wanted 'system fits' as well. Granted all coaches are looking for system fits, but it appears to me that Fisher would much rather have athletic freaks who he can coach into being system fits. That's the difference I see.

I think you're too hung up on the whole "rebuilding" thing, and that's not my focus. It doesn't appear it's Thomas' focus either. I'm not taking anything away from Spagnuolo/Devaney either. They were NEVER in the position to be able to turn one draft pick into so many, and that's a fantastic thing for Fisher/Snead to have been able to do. It's great that they walked into a situation where they weren't shackled by astronomical rookie contracts. It's also part of the reason why there's going to be a lot of turnover this year, and the next two years as well.

I hadn't thought about Fisher's "Be Miranda-ized" approach to drafting in relation to the team-building issue. But, yeah that;s different.

It's good that he added speed but, the previous drafts were full of projects so I;m not sure about that one...I think the system fit thing describes JL and the 2 corners (Fletcher, Murphy) but everywhere else they were willing to go for coachable potential.

Which, by the way, reminds me. Get ready for this one. Someone will in the same breath praise Fisher for taking a risk on Jenkins and then condemn Spags for taking Quinn. My only question is how many different boards we see that on.

I still don't think what happened in terms of populating the 90-man roster was extreme. There's an intact core and that's what matters to me.

So I don't think your analysis takes sufficient account of what I personally like. Think, "what does zn like." It always makes for a better post.
 

-X-

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zn said:
So I don't think your analysis takes sufficient account of what I personally like. Think, "what does zn like." It always makes for a better post.
Crap. I forgot all about that. :boing:

Does that mean I have to include astrophysics and white pine cones in all my posts too? Can I get a little latitude here?
 

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X said:
zn said:
So I don't think your analysis takes sufficient account of what I personally like. Think, "what does zn like." It always makes for a better post.
Crap. I forgot all about that. :boing:

Does that mean I have to include astrophysics and white pine cones in all my posts too? Can I get a little latitude here?

zn doesn't like it if you steal his topics. :evil:
 

-X-

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zn said:
X said:
zn said:
So I don't think your analysis takes sufficient account of what I personally like. Think, "what does zn like." It always makes for a better post.
Crap. I forgot all about that. :boing:

Does that mean I have to include astrophysics and white pine cones in all my posts too? Can I get a little latitude here?

zn doesn't like it if you steal his topics. :evil:
Yeah, well, X's third person steals whatever he wants. :razzed: