Schottenheimer

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CoachO

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It may not be Sherman, but when we have invested high picks in receivers over the past couple of drafts...One has to question their development.

And I do know about Schott's offense as being hard to learn. I remember that after he left NY, it came out that Sanchez had a hard time learning all the terminology.

The "high picks" you are referring to would be Quick and Austin I assume. And expecting either of those guys to step in and be much more than they have been given all the variables, IMO, is somewhat unrealistic. I would not consider any of the other guys to be "high picks". Austin has been here for ONE year, and Quick, well, that situation has been discussed ad nausea.

Again, I will say, this year should tell us an awful lot regarding the development of both of these guys, as well as the other RECENT draft picks.
 

ChrisW

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The "high picks" you are referring to would be Quick and Austin I assume. And expecting either of those guys to step in and be much more than they have been given all the variables, IMO, is somewhat unrealistic. I would not consider any of the other guys to be "high picks". Austin has been here for ONE year, and Quick, well, that situation has been discussed ad nausea.

Again, I will say, this year should tell us an awful lot regarding the development of both of these guys, as well as the other RECENT draft picks.

Right, which is why I said in a previous post on this thread that I would with hold any more judgement until we see what happens this year.
 

CoachO

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Right, which is why I said in a previous post on this thread that I would with hold any more judgement until we see what happens this year.

Then we are saying the same thing,,, either way, it should be fun to watch. Cannot wait till training camp opens.
 

blackbart

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I think we have seen development in all of our WRs over the past 3 years and a few that were not have been upgraded. Granted Quick has not played like Megatron in his first two years (make that a year and a third with Bradford)I wonder how many plays he has actually been in?? However even in his game we have seen bits and pieces of him contributing and flashes of his potential. Pettis has certainly grown and Givens and Bailey both has somewhat impressive first years. TA might not have been used to the best of his abilities but he also provided some exciting places.

Continuity this year should be fun and if they can stay healthy a viable shot at the playoffs. Another healthy year in 2015 and these guys will be SB contenders.
 

bwdenverram

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3 ineffective OC in last 4 seasons.
Same QB
At some point a common denominator should enter the equation.

It's easy to judge the OC based on the production, but there are other WR running routes, we only have the ability to focus on which ones get the ball thrown to them.

You pointed at the common denominator (the QB) so it sure seems like you are mainly pointing at Bradford. I was just pointing out that Kellen didn't do any better (at least statistically).
And although I'm not bashing Shotty, to my knowledge he's never been very effective. But it takes everyone running plays to be effective.
 

dieterbrock

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You pointed at the common denominator (the QB) so it sure seems like you are mainly pointing at Bradford. I was just pointing out that Kellen didn't do any better (at least statistically).
And although I'm not bashing Shotty, to my knowledge he's never been very effective. But it takes everyone running plays to be effective.
Shotty looked good with Favre until he wrecked his shoulder and played through it. Otherwise, Schotty has had Sanchez, Bradford and Clemens to hang his hat on.
I think that Clemens play being even remotely in the ball park with Bradford is a testament to the OC. When the #1 goes down, not many teams end up with a better win % with the back up, especially considering the schedule was even more difficult.
But back to my point, the offense has been dreadfull for years. Different OC. I am looking forward to seeing #8 play with Stacy and the revamped o-line, and a more experienced Tavon Austin. And I'm expecting great things.
 

ChrisW

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The "high picks" you are referring to would be Quick and Austin I assume. And expecting either of those guys to step in and be much more than they have been given all the variables, IMO, is somewhat unrealistic. I would not consider any of the other guys to be "high picks". Austin has been here for ONE year, and Quick, well, that situation has been discussed ad nausea.

Again, I will say, this year should tell us an awful lot regarding the development of both of these guys, as well as the other RECENT draft picks.

Going back to Quick and Austin real quick Coach as I think our offense hinges on these guys. Along with contributions from Givens.

I'm a believer that outside of development our biggest woes in the WR corps can be relieved if we get a guy to step up in the X position. We have Givens who, I believe, had an off year trying to do too much. I think he needs to go back to taking the top off the defense, and he's shown that he can do that very well in his rookie year. We also have Austin, who was mentioned in a post as being better on gadget plays and deep routes.

Do you think Austin projects better as our starting Z? He sure ran some pretty deep routes.

Going back to the X position, we have Quick and Britt now. one of these guys HAS to step up. These are prototypical X guys, and Quick projects perfectly to me as Dez Bryant. Hopefully that is his ceiling.
 

bwdenverram

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Shotty looked good with Favre until he wrecked his shoulder and played through it. Otherwise, Schotty has had Sanchez, Bradford and Clemens to hang his hat on.
I think that Clemens play being even remotely in the ball park with Bradford is a testament to the OC. When the #1 goes down, not many teams end up with a better win % with the back up, especially considering the schedule was even more difficult.
But back to my point, the offense has been dreadfull for years. Different OC. I am looking forward to seeing #8 play with Stacy and the revamped o-line, and a more experienced Tavon Austin. And I'm expecting great things.

I think everything in the second half is misleading in terms of QB or offensive success.

The first 7 games (and more so the first 4-5) the defense was nowhere near as good as it was the second half of the year. Probably why we went from the bottom of the league to top 15. Second, we had zero running game almost all of Bradford's starts. Our success had much less to do with Clemens as it did to do with our defense and running game stepping way up.
Clemens play was commendable for sure, but nowhere near on par with Sam's. Again, statistically anyway. I was at the Monday night Seattle game and had Clemens not thrown two horrible drive killing TD's we should of won that game, and easily. Not trying to bash him, but is what it is..
But I think we both agree that with THIS years defense and running game everyone, including Bradford should shine. If they don't then maybe there is something to getting a new QB and OC...
 

CoachO

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Going back to Quick and Austin real quick Coach as I think our offense hinges on these guys. Along with contributions from Givens.

I'm a believer that outside of development our biggest woes in the WR corps can be relieved if we get a guy to step up in the X position. We have Givens who, I believe, had an off year trying to do too much. I think he needs to go back to taking the top off the defense, and he's shown that he can do that very well in his rookie year. We also have Austin, who was mentioned in a post as being better on gadget plays and deep routes.

Do you think Austin projects better as our starting Z? He sure ran some pretty deep routes.

Going back to the X position, we have Quick and Britt now. one of these guys HAS to step up. These are prototypical X guys, and Quick projects perfectly to me as Dez Bryant. Hopefully that is his ceiling.

I think you are giving Givens too much credit actually. He had success his rookie year in five games, resulting in what now seems to be his claim to fame. He made a play of 50+ yards in five straight games. Once teams realized he posed a threat, they easily took that away from him and the Rams offense. All you have to do is look at the defensive scheme in Week ONE vs. the Cardinals. They put Peterson on Givens, with a Safety over the top, and it took him completely out of the game.

Teams duplicated this, and Givens was unable to make the adjustments in his game to be much of a factor the rest of the season. I have watched him in both training camps, and he has shown no willingness to win contested balls. He won't go over the middle, and unless he gets a soft cushion, completing even a quick slant to him is an adventure. He has the dreaded "alligator arms" whenever he is in traffic. The only routes he is willing to run, are the straight "go" route, an intermediate sideline route, or a hook/hitch route. IMO, opinion he came into camp last year, thinking he had "arrived" and he really didn't put in the work needed to further develop him overall game. He bulked up, but it hurt his overall game.

I hope he comes back this year with the work ethic needed to find ways to compete. With Bailey's suspension, I think Givens is the one guy who stands to benefit the most. He needs to establish himself in the first month, or he may well indeed find himself as the odd man out.

Quick and Britt, on the other hand, should and will compete for the job opposite Givens/Bailey. The biggest thing to me, is whether or not Britt can prove to be back from the knee injury. If healthy, he is the wildcard in this entire unit. If not, then Quick needs to be given every opportunity to prove that he belongs. Personally, I think he will. His biggest issue has been confidence. Believing he can play at this level, and gaining the confidence of the coaching staff to "sink or swim" with him.

The best case scenario, in my mind, is for Quick, Bailey and Austin to become to foundation of this unit. With Givens as the situational guy to take shots with. Which will be a whole lot easier if the other guys step up and show they can warrant the extra attention.

The one thing I think gets overlooked, is how teams now have approached defending the Rams. For the most part, teams recognized the speed they have, and have played predominantly zone against them. This also limits the "big play" capability. When teams chose to play straight man, even with Clemens at QB, (Colts for example), Austin and even Givens were able to have huge games. Assuming that continues, this is partly why Austin seemed to "struggle" with a lot of the underneath stuff they used him in.

This brings me back to Quick and Bailey. Quick runs the deep dig route better than anyone on the roster. Getting behind the LBs and in front of the safeties, they can have success against the zone coverage. Bailey seems to have the ability to find the soft spots in the zone, and can exploit the short/intermediate routes to keep the chains moving.

This is all predicated off the running game, and if teams sell out to play 8 man boxes, they will be facing a lot of single high safeties, thereby eliminating the type of coverage mentioned above that the Cardinals utilized in week one.
 

CGI_Ram

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Shotty looked good with Favre until he wrecked his shoulder and played through it. Otherwise, Schotty has had Sanchez, Bradford and Clemens to hang his hat on.

Hmm? Maybe there is your common denominator?
 

Memphis Ram

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You seem to want them to be a "full service" type of offensive system, while having some of the YOUNGEST skill position players in the NFL.

When the "veteran" WR is in his 3rd year, and is arguably the least talented of the group, I think the things you are suggesting is a recipe for disaster. As "X" mentioned, the inconsistencies of this offense had more to do with poor execution than it did then design. To me, that's all about inexperience. And you want them to make it even more complex by changing fundamentals of the system.

The one misconception about Schottenheimer's offense, is that most think its "simple". Quite the opposite is true. He has been forced to scale things back tremendously due to all the "new" players being added to the mix. It's not just an adjustment for the players. Coaches need to get acclimated to the "talents" of all the new players as much as the players need to "learn" a new system.

I fully expect this offense to continue to evolve and be much more productive moving forward. In spite of losing their starting QB, numerous injuries (again) on the O-Line, they still managed to score more points last year than in any year since 2006. They improved their PPG by 3+ points, and if they just match that margin this year, they will approach and avg of 24+ PPG. With what should be an improved defense, those numbers should be more than enough to get this team over the hump.

You lost me Coach0.

More back shoulder passes? More bunch WR sets? More of Austin on fake end arounds? More Wildcat looks? etc.. Most of what I suggested they've done before. Otherwise I don't see how adding some creativity such as lining Cook out wide sometimes, using more tackle eligible plays, or even running the same Jet sweep Austin has done a bunch of times in college is making anything more complex or puts any more pressure on the youngest skill position players in the NFL.
 

CGI_Ram

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For the record; I think Schotty will be fine with enough talent. He's just not someone to elevate others. :LOL:
 

CoachO

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You lost me Coach0.

More back shoulder passes? More bunch WR sets? More of Austin on fake end arounds? More Wildcat looks? etc.. Most of what I suggested they've done before. Otherwise I don't see how adding some creativity such as lining Cook out wide sometimes, using more tackle eligible plays, or even running the same Jet sweep Austin has done a bunch of times in college is making anything more complex or puts any more pressure on the youngest skill position players in the NFL.

So lets just say for a moment they do all of those things, and voila, the offense is now "fixed"?

I guess my ultimate point, the biggest issue for this offense, is getting better execution. Whether or not they incorporate more of all of those things, it won't make a single bit of difference if they don't line up and execute.

and lets not forget who the Head Coach is. I think he tends to prefer to leave all the "creativity" to special teams. LOL

As far as the specifics.... I cannot remember when they incorporated a Wildcat look with this group of players.... splitting hairs maybe, but you brought it up. and assuming it was something they might consider, who runs it? I guess I am just old fashioned enough to prefer them being better at the basics before they start trying to put in many wrinkles for the sake of "fooling" defenses with formations and what amounts to be a "smoke and mirrors" approach.
 

Memphis Ram

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So lets just say for a moment they do all of those things, and voila, the offense is now "fixed"?

I guess my ultimate point, the biggest issue for this offense, is getting better execution. Whether or not they incorporate more of all of those things, it won't make a single bit of difference if they don't line up and execute.

and lets not forget who the Head Coach is. I think he tends to prefer to leave all the "creativity" to special teams. LOL

As far as the specifics.... I cannot remember when they incorporated a Wildcat look with this group of players.... splitting hairs maybe, but you brought it up. and assuming it was something they might consider, who runs it? I guess I am just old fashioned enough to prefer them being better at the basics before they start trying to put in many wrinkles for the sake of "fooling" defenses with formations and what amounts to be a "smoke and mirrors" approach.

Never discounted execution or said my suggestions would ultimately fix the offense, but I do believe that more creativity would help put players in better positions to make plays. BTW, they did a basic wildcat with Zac Stacy once or twice late in the season.
 

CoachO

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Never discounted execution or said my suggestions would ultimately fix the offense, but I do believe that more creativity would help put players in better positions to make plays. BTW, they did a basic wildcat with Zac Stacy once or twice late in the season.

I don't recall them, although that's not to say they didn't,, just that it didn't leave a lasting impression on me.
 

CGI_Ram

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Yup. Shot has gotten a lot out of a little. And when he had talent to work with got good results. I see we agree here

I don't see a lot.

Here, I'll save you the trouble; points per game ranking attached in his career.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/SchoBr0.htm

Dudes average, best case. Only top 10 once in 8 years. Not good results in my book.

But I can understand how for a Rams fan, average looks good. :sneaky:
 
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dieterbrock

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I don't see a lot.

Here, I'll save you the trouble; points per game ranking attached in his career.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/SchoBr0.htm

Dudes average, best case. Only top 10 once in 8 years. Not good results in my book.

But I can understand how for a Rams fan, average looks good. :sneaky:
And in 2008 when he had a legit QB they had scored over 300 points in the first 11 games before Farve hurt his shoulder. So yeah, with the right player its a different offense
 

CGI_Ram

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And in 2008 when he had a legit QB they had scored over 300 points in the first 11 games before Farve hurt his shoulder. So yeah, with the right player its a different offense

1 time in 8yrs?

I dunno man. That's more than a "right player".
 

dieterbrock

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1 time in 8yrs?

I dunno man. That's more than a "right player".
With Sanchez they finished #13 overall in scoring twice. Id sign up with #13 right now. Last year that was Detroit at just under 25 points a game.