Rams strategy at pick #37 is gonna be fascinating...

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Dieter the Brock

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At 37, we should take the best playmaker available, and that should be either Engram or Godwin. Our offense has been so terrible; dead last in scoring, touchdowns, and yards. The number one factor in improving this team is improving this offense, no matter how good the defense is, you cannot "win a 0 - 0 game". Goff improves with o-line protection and getting him some help in pass catchers. How can a team dead last in offense lose 3 receivers----including their number 1 receiver----and feel that they can just replace these 3 guys with late-round guys is unfathomable. There are plenty of areas that need to be upgraded but, the desperate need of improving this offense should be first and foremost. Scheme and coaching will help our offense tremendously, no doubt about that but, looking at our pass-catchers, we have 2----yes 2, "proven" receivers, and one happens to be Tavon who's been less than "average" at this point. IIRC we were shutout by S.F. last year coming out of the off-season no less; we scored 10 points, and tried to "sit" on that small of a lead (because of no confidence in the offense) against Miami-----I can go on and on but, the whole league knows our offense is terrible. At 37, this offense desperately need a guy who can make an impact this year and help us score more points-----a team dead last in so many categories, loses it's best receiver and then choses to not make that it's first priority is not going to be competitive.
Sorry for the rant, but this is JMHO of course.

You say "everyone in the league knows our offense is terrible" but then you complained we didn't keep our #1 WR
Hmmm

I could see your point better
if we were transitioning from Don Coreyell or The Greatest Show on Turf offense to a completely new offensive system and lost our #1 WR etc, but we aren't
Nor was Kenny Britt the new Tory Holt or Isaac Bruce. Yeah i'd love either one on this team right now and we may nab the next Ellard, and then again he may already be on the roster.
I mean, Who knows how good any of our 2nd year receivers are, because as you say we totally sucked last year. And everyone knows we suck so badly.

But clearly we have some sort of talent -- our players are being snatched up in Free Agency, so that means they are at least serviceable and at most future All Pros (janoris). So maybe a guy like Cooper can step up and be a Ram great if given the opportunity in McVay's offense

I'd like to collect depth on the Offensive line early and often.
 

Sportsed

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Thanks for the response, and I usually don't get into a back-and-forth so don't take my pov in a negative fashion. The points you list are all valid but, I'm not complaining about losing Britt (who only played well because it was a contract year), so I would not have expected him to play that well again until his next contract year. We do not need to transition into those two types of explosive offenses-----we need to get out of the dead last area first, something more like into the low 20's or at least high teens (and we were dead last with Britt and now he's gone). I do not feel we have a player on the roster now who can come close to replacing Britt's production. No, we don't know about our 2nd year guys, but there is a reason they were drafted in the 4th round or later. No doubt we could use depth on the OL----and a few other spots as well, but we have a gaping hole at starting WR (I may be wrong, but I see Cooper as a better fit as a slot guy). Lastly, I will say this, Godwin will be a better/more impactful receiver than any of our 2nd year guys------JMHO course.
 

NERamsFan

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As I mentioned before, this oline is suspect at best. We have two aging vets starting (granted Whitworth is a beast), 4 questionable starters, with two new at their respective positions, we have one that is injury prone, another two coming off injury, and one in a contract year. Not to mention Saffold will be cut next year with a cap-friendly release to help resign our numerous, younger FAs next year. We HAVE to consider rebuilding this line or it won't matter who we throw to or who is throwing it; Goff will get killed!!

That's why I say, trade up and get a perennial pro bowler in Lamp. The cost will be well worth it. Start there, then come back and add a valuable piece like his teammate wideout (name slips my mind) in the later round and then grab a center to groom so that we can at least have two new strong pieces, along with what we currently have, to build off of for next year.

Imagine:

2018
Whitworth
Lamp
Pocic/eiflein
Hav
Rookie Rt next yr/GROB on a 1 yr resign???

(This concept fits Kromer's ideology of building from center/guards out.)

We have to plan with the future always considered.
 

Ram65

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Of course I get it , but I do believe taking an offensive lineman is a wasted pick.
1.salary
2.G. Robs contract year
3. All the young Lineman in draft 2 years ago are all coming into there 3rd year.That all have starting experience Donnal,Brown,Witchmann,plus the rest of roster that were hide away on practice & IR
4. You already believe what a good Line coach Kromer is
5.Whitworth wanting to mentor the young tackles
6. Sullivan gives The Rams time to figure out what they have.The Rams have interchangeable players, just need one at center. Center depth is the biggest question mark on paper though.

My believe is there is no way in heck Lamp falls to The Rams which would make it hard to pass up his value.I'm a value by position guy , but Lamp is 1st rd talent.

I want The Rams to trade back & then back up into the 2nd rd ?

Sleepers - Bucky Hodges TE late 3rd, then Jake Butt ? Injury ?
RB Marlon Mack late 2nd,3rd, then Joe Williams 3rd day
WR 2nd rd Zay Jones, JuJu,& Goodwin.
--3rd day -- Amara Darboh ,Chad Williams, & K.D. Cannon


Are you reading what I'm writing? I don't think Lamp will fall in the Rams lap @ 37. I stated that he would be a player the Rams could move up to get. It is just speculation fun. I don't know how many spots but, for the sake of discussion 5-7 spots wouldn't be out of the question. GRob and Saffold may not be Rams next year. Out of the young guys Havenstein has shown he can play before the ankle injury last year. The rest have been questionable. There is room for improvement.

NERamsFan sounds like he is all in for getting Lamp. He confirms my questions about the offensive line.

As I mentioned before, this oline is suspect at best. We have two aging vets starting (granted Whitworth is a beast), 4 questionable starters, with two new at their respective positions, we have one that is injury prone, another two coming off injury, and one in a contract year. Not to mention Saffold will be cut next year with a cap-friendly release to help resign our numerous, younger FAs next year. We HAVE to consider rebuilding this line or it won't matter who we throw to or who is throwing it; Goff will get killed!!

That's why I say, trade up and get a perennial pro bowler in Lamp. The cost will be well worth it. Start there, then come back and add a valuable piece like his teammate wideout (name slips my mind) in the later round and then grab a center to groom so that we can at least have two new strong pieces, along with what we currently have, to build off of for next year.

Imagine:

2018
Whitworth
Lamp
Pocic/eiflein
Hav
Rookie Rt next yr/GROB on a 1 yr resign???

(This concept fits Kromer's ideology of building from center/guards out.)
 

Rams43

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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #25
Here's my response to those who favor a tradeup scenario out of #37.

Oh, HELL no! Not this year. Not with our needs. Not in a draft this deep through at least round four. Not when we already lack a 1st round pick.

We will be able to select from a handful of players at #37 that would be considered 1st round talent in a normal draft year. GOTTA take advantage of that.

Call 'em holes or call them crying needs, I don't care, but we absolutely, positively must get one of a WR, TE, and a quality CB, each by no later than the end of the 4th round.

I don't know the order taken, nor do I care. All depends on how the dominoes fall.

I think we could get a gem or two with the remaining 4th and the 5th, as well.

After that, we must hope and pray that Snead gets good late round picks and does his usual fine job on the UDFA's.

This is a winning strategy given our pick situation and the depth of this draft. We've gotta roll with it.

What we CANNOT do is fall in love with just one player and screw ouselves by giving up picks to trade up for him. That would be a classic penny wise, pound foolish move.
 

So Ram

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Are you reading what I'm writing? I don't think Lamp will fall in the Rams lap @ 37. I stated that he would be a player the Rams could move up to get. It is just speculation fun. I don't know how many spots but, for the sake of discussion 5-7 spots wouldn't be out of the question. GRob and Saffold may not be Rams next year. Out of the young guys Havenstein has shown he can play before the ankle injury last year. The rest have been questionable. There is room for improvement.

NERamsFan sounds like he is all in for getting Lamp. He confirms my questions about the offensive line.

I don't see it happening at all. This year is one of the weakest offensive line drafts in the last 5 years. Fun , Snead would probably lose his job doing it.McVay would actually have to be all in on it & Kromer was brought in to coach up the offensive line. Next season is next season. You don't get rid of these players(cut) , then it would go against cap space.Thise are guaranteed contracts.
Fun is fun & I get it. I'm excited to see Kromer do his magic every. He said he likes being in this situation to coach such a young group. The veteran leadership in Sullivan & Whitworth were huge signs. IMO .

To each his own , but trading up in a deep draft like this would be insane ??
The Rams are already out a first round pick.
Will see what happens. The time is almost here.
 

Corbin

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Good luck getting separation with Copper Kupp !! He won't be a Ram though so no worries.
Offensive line is stacked & full for 2017.
I'll trust Kromer though. He will have final say , but I think he is fired up to coach this line up !!

Above is a solid set of football players.
Dude have you never seen video on Kupp and just judging him by a number? You don't need elite speed to be a successful WR which I'd expect you'd know with the likes of Tory Holt and Isaac Bruce playing for us recently.

Being a premier route runner makes up a ton and get you in position to make a play. Watch some tape in him... he can run those routes!
 

DaveFan'51

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Simply put. My beliefs are, The Rams have needs in almost all area's, except Kicking of course! The Rams should go BPA no matter what the Player's position is! Grab the Very Best impactful player that is their when we pick! "D' or "O" I don't care! McVay's 1st pick in the NFL as HC has to make a statement! Big and Bold!!
 

jrry32

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Good luck getting separation with Copper Kupp !! He won't be a Ram though so no worries.
Offensive line is stacked & full for 2017.
I'll trust Kromer though. He will have final say , but I think he is fired up to coach this line up !!

Above is a solid set of football players.

Antonio Brown, DeAndre Hopkins, Anquan Boldin, Jarvis Landry, Brandon Marshall, Jerry Rice, Michael Thomas (Saints), Kelvin Benjamin, Willie Snead, Allen Robinson, etc. all seemed to get more than enough separation. However, Stephen Hill, Troy Williamson, Donnie Avery, A.J. Jenkins, Derrius Heyward-Bey, etc. never seemed to be able to capitalize on the separation their speed supposedly brought them.

Straight-line speed is an extremely overrated attribute. Separation in the NFL generally comes from change of direction ability and route running skill. Shockingly, those are two of Kupp's biggest strengths.
 

So Ram

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Dude have you never seen video on Kupp and just judging him by a number? You don't need elite speed to be a successful WR which I'd expect you'd know with the likes of Tory Holt and Isaac Bruce playing for us recently.

Being a premier route runner makes up a ton and get you in position to make a play. Watch some tape in him... he can run those routes!

From my view at the Senior Bowl he had trouble separating . He played for a small
Like Eastern Washington.I'm not impressed. Time will tell , but he will be lucky to go by day 2 .
 

jrry32

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From my view at the Senior Bowl he had trouble separating . He played for a small
Like Eastern Washington.I'm not impressed. Time will tell , but he will be lucky to go by day 2 .

That conflicts with just about every report from the Senior Bowl practices. In fact, some people who were there said his performance was the best they've seen from a WR at the Senior Bowl ever.

He did play for a small school. He also torched every Pac-12 defense he played. He beat future first round pick Marcus Peters for two TDs. And he rewrote NCAA record books.

But then again, WRs from small schools never pan out.

Here are some examples of small school WRs:
Jerry Rice
Terrell Owens
Randy Moss
Jimmy Smith
Keenan McCardell
Isaac Bruce
Pierre Garcon
T.Y. Hilton
Rod Smith
Donald Driver
Greg Jennings
Joe Horn
Andre Reed
Steve Largent
Marques Colston
Antonio Brown
Miles Austin
Vincent Jackson

And that list isn't close to comprehensive. There are good number of solid to good WRs playing right now that I didn't add to the list.
 
Last edited:

So Ram

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Antonio Brown, DeAndre Hopkins, Anquan Boldin, Jarvis Landry, Brandon Marshall, Jerry Rice, Michael Thomas (Saints), Kelvin Benjamin, Willie Snead, Allen Robinson, etc. all seemed to get more than enough separation. However, Stephen Hill, Troy Williamson, Donnie Avery, A.J. Jenkins, Derrius Heyward-Bey, etc. never seemed to be able to capitalize on the separation their speed supposedly brought them.

Straight-line speed is an extremely overrated attribute. Separation in the NFL generally comes from change of direction ability and route running skill. Shockingly, those are two of Kupp's biggest strengths.

4.62 is slow . The Rams drafted a kid that broke the alltime receptions record. Never made it .
I'm not a believer in him.I think Spruce is the same type of possession WR. I like Chad Hansen better than Kupp .He got injured , but a good 3rd day WR in 4th or 5th for a team of need.

Where do you have Kupp rated & want ?? 2nd rd ??
 

So Ram

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That conflicts with just about every report from the Senior Bowl practices. In fact, some people who were there said his performance was the best they've seen from a WR at the Senior Bowl ever.

He did play for a small school. He also torched every Pac-12 defense he played. He beat future first round pick Marcus Peters for two TDs. And he rewrote NCAA record books.

But then again, WRs from small schools never pan out.

Here are some examples of small school WRs:
Jerry Rice
Terrell Owens
Randy Moss
Jimmy Smith
Keenan McCardell
Isaac Bruce
Pierre Garcon
T.Y. Hilton
Rod Smith
Donald Driver
Greg Jennings
Joe Horn
Andre Reed
Steve Largent
Marques Colston
Antonio Brown
Miles Austin
Vincent Jackson

And that list isn't close to comprehensive. There are good number of solid to good WRs playing right now that I didn't add to the list.

West Coast ??? You know I'm bias.
Will see how he does . You make some excellent points. If The Rams draft him , I'll be a fan . I just don't see it happening.
 

jrry32

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4.62 is slow . The Rams drafted a kid that broke the alltime receptions record. Never made it .
I'm not a believer in him.I think Spruce is the same type of possession WR. I like Chad Hansen better than Kupp .He got injured , but a good 3rd day WR in 4th or 5th for a team of need.

Where do you have Kupp rated & want ?? 2nd rd ??

4.62 is slow. Then again, the best WR in the NFL is 5'10" and ran a 4.57 40. The top rookie WR last year ran a 4.57 40. The top two WRs from the 2013 draft class ran a 4.57 40 (DeAndre Hopkins) and a 4.71 40 (Keenan Allen). Meanwhile, our top 10 pick at WR from the 2013 draft class (Tavon Austin) ran a 4.34 40. The guy who led the NFL in TD catches last year, Allen Robinson, ran a 4.60 40.

Speed isn't unimportant, but it is overvalued. When a guy lacks ideal speed, you shouldn't write him off. That simply should make you scrutinize the other parts of his game more closely. When you do that with Kupp, you realize that the other parts of his game more than compensate for his lack of ideal speed.

Personally, I don't think Chad Hansen is anywhere near the player that Kupp is. Hansen is a very different type of player. I'd say he's basically the opposite of Kupp. Hansen is more like Chris Hogan (wins vertically). Kupp is more like Keenan Allen (wins in the short to intermediate ranges).

What do I have Kupp? He's my top WR on Day 2. There isn't a WR or TE that I'd draft over him with our second round pick (assuming the guys projected to go in the first round do).

As for Spruce, he's a very different type of player. Nelson is sure-handed, tough, and physical. However, he doesn't have the separation quickness or burst that Kupp does. He's also not as skilled or mentally refined. I like Spruce as a possession guy. He's going to fight every time he's on the field, he's going to be where he's supposed to be, and he'll catch the ball if it's put on him. But he's not the dynamic player that Kupp is. He can't create for himself like Kupp can.
 

jrry32

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One other thing I'll point out in regards to Kupp is that the 40 yard splits can speak volumes. One thing I pointed out about Alshon when he was coming out was how slow his 10 yard split was but how impressive his 10 to 40 yard split was. I compared Alshon's 10 to 40 yard split with guys who were known for being speedy deep threats, and Alshon was on par with guys like DeSean Jackson and Julio Jones in terms of his 10 to 40 yard split.(while having a 10 yard split that was more comparable to TEs)

My point then was that Alshon's film bore that out. He was a long strider who separated deep well, but he looked slow on short routes. On those routes, he won with his frame and catch point dominance. I pointed out that was unlikely to change in the NFL. He'd be a guy who thrived on attacking teams on the intermediate and deep levels but would have to win at the catch point on short passes.

Cooper Kupp is very much the opposite of that. While Kupp ran a 4.61 40 (Pro Day), his 10 yard split was a 1.57 (Combine splits haven't come out yet). When you compare that to the 10 yard splits of WRs from the 2016 draft who were similar in terms of height and weight (the 2017 10 yard splits aren't all out yet, that's why I chose 2016), you find that Kupp's 10 yard split corresponds to a 40 time in the range of a 4.47 to 4.50. Basically, over the first 10 yards, Kupp has the speed of a guy who would typically run a 4.47 to 4.50. Unfortunately, in the 10 to 40 yard range, he's quite slow. Oddly enough, his slowness is contained entirely in the 10 to 20 yard range (1.13 10 to 20 yard split). His 1.91 20 to 40 yard split is pretty solid.

Here are the 2016 players to show his speed on the 10 yard split:
Jordan Payton (6'1" 207) - 1.57 10 yard split (4.47 40)
Mike Thomas [Rams] (6'1" 193) - 1.59 10 yard split (4.54 40)
Josh Doctson (6'2" 200) - 1.58 10 yard split (4.50 40)

The really odd thing is that it's fairly normal to have a 10 to 20 yard split in the 1.00 to 1.05 range. Kupp's 1.13 split is abnormally slow. But his 1.91 split over the final 20 yards is actually fairly average. I'm not sure how to explain it. I'll be interested to see what his Combine splits are and if they reflect the same abnormality.

Anyways, getting back to my point, Kupp's 10 yard split reflects his film. It shows that he's quick off the line. He has great stop/start acceleration. His agility drills (short shuttle and three cone drill) also highlight that and show off his agility and change of direction ability.

When you consider the reality of today's game, I think Kupp's skill-set is quite valuable. He's a guy who will win at a high level within 10 to 15 yards of the LOS. If you look at the splits of QB attempts, they reflect the fact that about 60% to 70% of passes are thrown within 10 yards of the LOS. Another 15% to 25% are thrown in the 11 to 20 yard range. That leaves only about 10% to 20% of attempts thrown in the 21+ yard range of the field. Kirk Cousins, for example, attempted 69% of his passes within 10 yards of the LOS, 19% of his passes in the 11 to 20 yard range, and 12% of his passes in the 21+ yard range of the field.

What's my point here? Kupp is going to be extremely difficult to stop on routes that occur in the ranges where around 75% to 80% of attempts are thrown. Why are we so focused on the range where so few attempts are thrown?

Further, a lack of speed doesn't necessarily stop a guy from being effective as a deep threat. Coaches can scheme guys openings. WRs can also create openings using their skill and mental acuity. I posted two videos of Kupp catching deep balls at the Senior Bowl recently. Those two plays show how a WR can use skill and intelligence to make plays down the field. If anyone wants, I can go in more detail tomorrow. Let me know if anyone wants a short (okay, probably long) breakdown of that. I figure y'all must be getting sick of me hyping Kupp.
 

So Ram

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4.62 is slow. Then again, the best WR in the NFL is 5'10" and ran a 4.57 40. The top rookie WR last year ran a 4.57 40. The top two WRs from the 2013 draft class ran a 4.57 40 (DeAndre Hopkins) and a 4.71 40 (Keenan Allen). Meanwhile, our top 10 pick at WR from the 2013 draft class (Tavon Austin) ran a 4.34 40. The guy who led the NFL in TD catches last year, Allen Robinson, ran a 4.60 40.

Speed isn't unimportant, but it is overvalued. When a guy lacks ideal speed, you shouldn't write him off. That simply should make you scrutinize the other parts of his game more closely. When you do that with Kupp, you realize that the other parts of his game more than compensate for his lack of ideal speed.

Personally, I don't think Chad Hansen is anywhere near the player that Kupp is. Hansen is a very different type of player. I'd say he's basically the opposite of Kupp. Hansen is more like Chris Hogan (wins vertically). Kupp is more like Keenan Allen (wins in the short to intermediate ranges).

What do I have Kupp? He's my top WR on Day 2. There isn't a WR or TE that I'd draft over him with our second round pick (assuming the guys projected to go in the first round do).

As for Spruce, he's a very different type of player. Nelson is sure-handed, tough, and physical. However, he doesn't have the separation quickness or burst that Kupp does. He's also not as skilled or mentally refined. I like Spruce as a possession guy. He's going to fight every time he's on the field, he's going to be where he's supposed to be, and he'll catch the ball if it's put on him. But he's not the dynamic player that Kupp is. He can't create for himself like Kupp can.

Very well said. Your banging the table for Kupp. Next Steve Largent ?
To me Allen was coming off a leg injury & is much stronger than Kupp.Hansen is a Cal guy coming off an injury as well.

Kupp I believe will struggle at the NFL level. I think he plays a little to straight up for my liking. I think he is going to get popped real good early in his career.

I like your opinions . Your a real good evaluator .All your points are valued .

I think Tavon is going to have a real solid season with at least 10 TD's as a playmaker. McVay will put him in spots to be successful .

Kupp is sneaky fast & seems to find his way to the ends zone surprisingly.His cuts slick & has a knack for where he is on the field . Postitions himself body was well. -- Just not a WR, I'm going to draft until day 3 .

I see some real good talent ahead of him . --Walters has him as the 16th best WR. Say what you want about him. Will get back to it after the draft. The team he gets drafted by will have a lot to do with his success in my view .
To me he is not a game changer , or a number 1 WR for a NFL team.
 

12intheBox

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Every year we have WRs in the draft that are tall and blaze and armchair scouts drool all over ourselves plugging them in as unstobbable pieces - and every year most of those guys do nothing. Playing WR is hard - the complexities and nuances of the position are what make certain guys special and other guys - guys who are often head and shoulders more atheletic from a raw perspective - complete duds out there.

Its always tempting to take a flyer on one of these eye popping metric guys and hope that you can turn them into a football player but it generally doesn't pan out. The old saying that a prospect's tape is his DNA is true for a reason. You want guys who can play the game and a huge chunk of the game is played between the ears. Give me football players first and let someone else take a flyer on the metrics.