Rams seem serious about Case Keenum as starting quarterback

[Elmgrovegnome]

We were 7-9 last year and nick foles had one of the worst seasons in nfl history

Interesting way to look at it. 7-9 with a terrible Qb, add some weapons and a decent Qb and the Rams should be in the playoffs. Makes sense, but the margin for success in the NFL is so minute. It can't be that simple can it? I do agree that just a dropped pass here (Pittsburgh), extra point there (Minnesota), and the Rams are 9-7.

I have a feeling that Fisher and Snead think the same way you do.

 

[Riverumbbq]

Interesting way to look at it. 7-9 with a terrible Qb, add some weapons and a decent Qb and the Rams should be in the playoffs. Makes sense, but the margin for success in the NFL is so minute. It can't be that simple can it? I do agree that just a dropped pass here (Pittsburgh), extra point there (Minnesota), and the Rams are 9-7.

I have a feeling that Fisher and Snead think the same way you do.

You could also look at it like the weapons are all that is truly required to get to the play-offs. The Rams were 15 points from going 11 - 5, losing 4 games by just 15 points total. We should be starting the season with a much improved far more developed OL, our top RB will be ready on day 1, and Keenum will be our starting QB ahead of Foles. Even our defense appears improved minus the FS position, which is likely dealt with in the draft. Get the starting weapons, get quality depth, stay healthy, and even Keenum should get us to the next level. jmo.

 

[Ram_Rally]

Interesting way to look at it. 7-9 with a terrible Qb, add some weapons and a decent Qb and the Rams should be in the playoffs. Makes sense, but the margin for success in the NFL is so minute. It can't be that simple can it? I do agree that just a dropped pass here (Pittsburgh), extra point there (Minnesota), and the Rams are 9-7.

I have a feeling that Fisher and Snead think the same way you do.

That last line made me laugh because I always criticize fisher and Snead lol. But I think that putting a quality qb into our system covers up a lot of mistakes and keeps us competitive for years. They however think they can put anyone at qb and win

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

You could also look at it like the weapons are all that is truly required to get to the play-offs. The Rams were 15 points from going 11 - 5, losing 4 games by just 15 points total. We should be starting the season with a much improved far more developed OL, our top RB will be ready on day 1, and Keenum will be our starting QB ahead of Foles. Even our defense appears improved minus the FS position, which is likely dealt with in the draft. Get the starting weapons, get quality depth, stay healthy, and even Keenum should get us to the next level. jmo.

Yeah, that could be right. The Rams had a tough schedule for the most part too. They will again I guess. You say they were 15 points from going 11-5. I wonder if you were to compare that to the top teams, how does it stack up? The Rams points differential was -50. There are several other NFC teams that had positive differentials like Seattle at +146. I know the Rams beat Seattle twice but wouldn't they have to score a whole bunch more to consistenly be a Superbowl contender?

Carolina was a +192, Denver was +59. Denver's defense clearly was the game changer for them. Lets compare some of the top teams PF/PA to get more perspective.

Denver 355/296 +59
Carolina 500/308 +192
Cardinals 498/313 +176
Seattle 423/277 +146
Vikings 365/302 +63
Rams 280/330 -50


The Rams beat Seattle twice and should have beaten Minnesota and split with the Cardinals. So this points gap is not the end all be all but just to speculate how many more points on offense do the Rams need to score to get in the conversation with the rest of these teams? The defense is close and a little improvement/health should go a long ways in lowering that number but the differential was a negative 50. They probably need at least another 90-100 pts to be a real contender. That is an average of at least 6.25 pts a game. Nearly a full touchdown per game. They averaged 17.5 pts a game and would need to average about 24 pts a game.

Can Keenum do that with better receivers, a more experienced Oline and healthy RB from day 1? Seems like a bigger gamble when you look at it that way.

 

[Faceplant]

I have to think that the Rams could have won 9+ games if Keenum started the entire season. Add some weapons, get the line some more cohesion and I could see them winning 11 games next season with CK at the helm. I am always an optimist this time of year though.....

 

[Selassie I]

I don't feel good about any of the QBs in this draft. Especially if they are drafted and have to play at all during their 1st year in the NFL.

Case is our best available option.

 

[bubbaramfan]

I would be very pleased to see the Rams get either Treadwell or Doctson. Rams really need a fresh face at WR.

 

[Fatbot]

they very rarely ever come to you

As I have passed through the stages of grief into acceptance that Fisher is perfectly giddy with the thought that "doesn't totally suck" is the QB standard of excellence required for the Rams to make the playoffs, I've come to think more and more that the truth is the exact opposite of your statement:

Getting a great QB *is* something that simply comes to you.

It can't be forced. It's simply pure dumb luck. It's the product of having the #1 pick at just the right year or having a QB fall to you because others passed on him under lucky circumstances. Trading for a QB, or moving up in the draft for a QB, just rarely works out

A review of times teams tried to force their way to a QB by trading up in the first round QB (since 2000) is here: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on...st-round-quarterback-is-rarely-worth-the-cost

While I don't necessary advocate the AV points system, it shows that 14 other teams tried to pry open a different fate with a crowbar and the best result was Jay Cutler. Two others won Super Bowls, but the overall success rate is dismal. Why should we think the Rams would end up with something better than JP Losman where so many others failed? Some magical superior scouting skills of the Rams franchise that has served us so well so far in our QB search?

No, it's simply luck, and I've pretty much accepted the grief that the best course is to ride it out and wait for the universe to provide a QB answer. Maybe one of the top QBs will fall to 15. Maybe the next great QB will be a 3rd rounder the Rams just pick on a whim because nobody else did. The alternative of trading up seems clearly worse -- not only do you face the same luck of the QB crapshoot, you add the cost of overpaying for a lottery ticket of horrible odds.

As for trading, here's an article talking about QB trades: http://thebiglead.com/2013/04/24/qu...john-hadl-with-plenty-of-hilarity-in-between/ It's in the context of involving draft picks, but it's clear that for every Favre traded there's three Foles, Mirers and Hadls.

Just go down the top 20 QB list:
-Obtained by fate: Wilson, Dalton, Brady, Cousins, Brees, Cam, Stafford, Big Ben, Rodgers, Mariota, Carr, Ryan, Tannehill, Bortles

-Obtained by force: T.Taylor, A.Smith, Rivers/Eli, McCown, Cutler, Hoyer, Bridgewater, Peyton

Can you change fate and find a QB by brute force? Of course. The odds are you won't, and it will cost a lot more and hurt your team to try for those bad odds, so I've come full circle to the zen notion that it's best to just let a QB come to you.

Unless you trade for the perfect QB then it's obviously the result of pure skill and genius.

 

[den-the-coach]

I've had to deal with Kellen Clemens, Shaun Hill, Nick Foles and devastating injuries to Samuel Jacob Bradford...Dear Kevin, Jeff & Les I need more than Casey Austin "Case" Keenum!

 

[JackDRams]

As I have passed through the stages of grief into acceptance that Fisher is perfectly giddy with the thought that "doesn't totally suck" is the QB standard of excellence required for the Rams to make the playoffs, I've come to think more and more that the truth is the exact opposite of your statement:

Getting a great QB *is* something that simply comes to you.

It can't be forced. It's simply pure dumb luck. It's the product of having the #1 pick at just the right year or having a QB fall to you because others passed on him under lucky circumstances. Trading for a QB, or moving up in the draft for a QB, just rarely works out

A review of times teams tried to force their way to a QB by trading up in the first round QB (since 2000) is here: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on...st-round-quarterback-is-rarely-worth-the-cost

While I don't necessary advocate the AV points system, it shows that 14 other teams tried to pry open a different fate with a crowbar and the best result was Jay Cutler. Two others won Super Bowls, but the overall success rate is dismal. Why should we think the Rams would end up with something better than JP Losman where so many others failed? Some magical superior scouting skills of the Rams franchise that has served us so well so far in our QB search?

No, it's simply luck, and I've pretty much accepted the grief that the best course is to ride it out and wait for the universe to provide a QB answer. Maybe one of the top QBs will fall to 15. Maybe the next great QB will be a 3rd rounder the Rams just pick on a whim because nobody else did. The alternative of trading up seems clearly worse -- not only do you face the same luck of the QB crapshoot, you add the cost of overpaying for a lottery ticket of horrible odds.

As for trading, here's an article talking about QB trades: http://thebiglead.com/2013/04/24/qu...john-hadl-with-plenty-of-hilarity-in-between/ It's in the context of involving draft picks, but it's clear that for every Favre traded there's three Foles, Mirers and Hadls.

Just go down the top 20 QB list:
-Obtained by fate: Wilson, Dalton, Brady, Cousins, Brees, Cam, Stafford, Big Ben, Rodgers, Mariota, Carr, Ryan, Tannehill, Bortles

-Obtained by force: T.Taylor, A.Smith, Rivers/Eli, McCown, Cutler, Hoyer, Bridgewater, Peyton

Can you change fate and find a QB by brute force? Of course. The odds are you won't, and it will cost a lot more and hurt your team to try for those bad odds, so I've come full circle to the zen notion that it's best to just let a QB come to you.

Unless you trade for the perfect QB then it's obviously the result of pure skill and genius.

I could be wrong, but didn't the Dolphins trade up for Tannehill? And that Force list is pretty damn good, aside from Hoyer and McCown. Even Tyrod Taylor is starting to show his potential.

 

[LesBaker]

It would have been nice to see Mannion start a few games at the end of last year. For all we know he could be our QB of the future but Fisher won't play him.We know what Keenum can or can't do and we know he is not the future.Had Mannion been given the chance in the last 4-5 games we could've found our starter.If he failed at least we would know and probably have a better draft pick top 10 maybe.Either way we would be in a better position this offseason knowing exactly what we had and need to do.

Or they decided he wasn't ready/didn't know the playbook enough/didn't want to put him in behind a bad OL..........who knows.

Maybe they are going to see what he can do this year.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

As I have passed through the stages of grief into acceptance that Fisher is perfectly giddy with the thought that "doesn't totally suck" is the QB standard of excellence required for the Rams to make the playoffs, I've come to think more and more that the truth is the exact opposite of your statement:

Getting a great QB *is* something that simply comes to you.

It can't be forced. It's simply pure dumb luck. It's the product of having the #1 pick at just the right year or having a QB fall to you because others passed on him under lucky circumstances. Trading for a QB, or moving up in the draft for a QB, just rarely works out

A review of times teams tried to force their way to a QB by trading up in the first round QB (since 2000) is here: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on...st-round-quarterback-is-rarely-worth-the-cost

While I don't necessary advocate the AV points system, it shows that 14 other teams tried to pry open a different fate with a crowbar and the best result was Jay Cutler. Two others won Super Bowls, but the overall success rate is dismal. Why should we think the Rams would end up with something better than JP Losman where so many others failed? Some magical superior scouting skills of the Rams franchise that has served us so well so far in our QB search?

No, it's simply luck, and I've pretty much accepted the grief that the best course is to ride it out and wait for the universe to provide a QB answer. Maybe one of the top QBs will fall to 15. Maybe the next great QB will be a 3rd rounder the Rams just pick on a whim because nobody else did. The alternative of trading up seems clearly worse -- not only do you face the same luck of the QB crapshoot, you add the cost of overpaying for a lottery ticket of horrible odds.

As for trading, here's an article talking about QB trades: http://thebiglead.com/2013/04/24/qu...john-hadl-with-plenty-of-hilarity-in-between/ It's in the context of involving draft picks, but it's clear that for every Favre traded there's three Foles, Mirers and Hadls.

Just go down the top 20 QB list:
-Obtained by fate: Wilson, Dalton, Brady, Cousins, Brees, Cam, Stafford, Big Ben, Rodgers, Mariota, Carr, Ryan, Tannehill, Bortles

-Obtained by force: T.Taylor, A.Smith, Rivers/Eli, McCown, Cutler, Hoyer, Bridgewater, Peyton

Can you change fate and find a QB by brute force? Of course. The odds are you won't, and it will cost a lot more and hurt your team to try for those bad odds, so I've come full circle to the zen notion that it's best to just let a QB come to you.

Unless you trade for the perfect QB then it's obviously the result of pure skill and genius.

Most of the top QBs are taken in early in the draft. The Colts forced the Luck pick imo too. Look at last year. Mariota and Winston, guys like Manning, Manning, Rivers. I know some go later like Big Ben and Flacco, but if there is a guy that seems to win the consensus he usually ends up being very good. Don't say RGIII either because I don't think he was even the consensus pick on his own team. Forget the Manziel's and Tebows too. We are talking about conventional QBs. If the Rams are sitting at 15 and want one of the top 3, then they need to make sure they get him. Maybe they only like one or two. Then they need to make sure they get one of them.

We are not privy to all of the inside info, but NFL teams get a pretty good idea of who likes who by draft day. I have read enough 'after the fact' stuff to believe that it is not all as big a mystery inside that circle. So, if the Rams love Lynch, or Cook they will have a pretty good idea of where he will be considered and by whom. If they only like Wentz or Goff, well then they need to move up higher because the competition will be stiffer.

Sure you can find a decent third round QB, or a good starter at the end of round 1. But most really good QBs are a known commodity coming out. If you hit on one outside the top 8, then yes there is probably a great deal of luck involved.

I think right now Fisher and Snead have to 'Change their Stars', instead of letting them fall where they may.

 

[jrry32]

Interesting way to look at it. 7-9 with a terrible Qb, add some weapons and a decent Qb and the Rams should be in the playoffs. Makes sense, but the margin for success in the NFL is so minute. It can't be that simple can it? I do agree that just a dropped pass here (Pittsburgh), extra point there (Minnesota), and the Rams are 9-7.

I have a feeling that Fisher and Snead think the same way you do.

Problem is that this is a different year. Our defense arguably got weaker. Other teams have gotten stronger. Case Keenum can be less shitty than Foles was in 2015 and still lead us to 7-9 in 2016. In fact, if Keenum starts all 16 games, I don't have any confidence that we finished better than 8-8.

 

[-X-]

If the Rams are 100% in on Case Keenum, then I'm 100% in on Case Keenum. In fact, as some of you have seen already, I've been in his camp since they took him away from Houston. Yes he's not the most athletically gifted guy, and yes he's shorter than you'd want your QB to be, but that doesn't mean anything. You can either ball or you can't. Keenum doesn't fold in the pocket under pressure. He doesn't force stupid throws in the hopes that they get caught. He can scramble. He can throw on the run. He can make good reads and go through his progressions. He's high energy, and FIsher loves him. I've seen the elation on Fisher's face when Keenum scores. Something I've rarely seen him do with any other QB on his roster.

Look at how Steve Young did in Tampa with zero weapons.

Think his career would have been worth a shit if he stayed in that Organization and with the way they built an offense? By the time Tampa actually had an offense, Young would have been at retirement age. Now we should just draft a rookie QB and give him Quick, Britt, Austin and Kendricks? Like that's gonna turn a rookie into an elite QB? This team isn't built for a QB to air it out and take over games. This team is built to milk the clock with a strong run game, play-action passes, and keeping the other offenses off the field. Like it or lump it, that's Fisher football. There is nothing about Keenum's play over the last year that suggests he's incapable of running that kind of offense. In fact, it would have been a much more productive offense if he was installed earlier in the year. No doubt about it. And if you give him a couple more weapons in the passing game, like big strong receivers who can dominate the middle zones, then this offense will be off and running. I think (and it seems Fisher agrees right now) that that's the way we should go.

IMO of course.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Problem is that this is a different year. Our defense arguably got weaker. Other teams have gotten stronger. Case Keenum can be less crappy than Foles was in 2015 and still lead us to 7-9 in 2016. In fact, if Keenum starts all 16 games, I don't have any confidence that we finished better than 8-8.

I agree. I kind of refuted this argument on a different thread, saying that a few receivers, more experience on the Oline and Gurley from day 1 probably doesn't add up to 6.25 more points per game. That is a touchdown a week. I don't think Keenum could consistently pull that off even with Megatron and Colston in their prime.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

If the Rams are 100% in on Case Keenum, then I'm 100% in on Case Keenum. In fact, as some of you have seen already, I've been in his camp since they took him away from Houston. Yes he's not the most athletically gifted guy, and yes he's shorter than you'd want your QB to be, but that doesn't mean anything. You can either ball or you can't. Keenum doesn't fold in the pocket under pressure. He doesn't force stupid throws in the hopes that they get caught. He can scramble. He can throw on the run. He can make good reads and go through his progressions. He's high energy, and FIsher loves him. I've seen the elation on Fisher's face when Keenum scores. Something I've rarely seen him do with any other QB on his roster.

Look at how Steve Young did in Tampa with zero weapons.

Think his career would have been worth a crap if he stayed in that Organization and with the way they built an offense? By the time Tampa actually had an offense, Young would have been at retirement age. Now we should just draft a rookie QB and give him Quick, Britt, Austin and Kendricks? Like that's gonna turn a rookie into an elite QB? This team isn't built for a QB to air it out and take over games. This team is built to milk the clock with a strong run game, play-action passes, and keeping the other offenses off the field. Like it or lump it, that's Fisher football. There is nothing about Keenum's play over the last year that suggests he's incapable of running that kind of offense. In fact, it would have been a much more productive offense if he was installed earlier in the year. No doubt about it. And if you give him a couple more weapons in the passing game, like big strong receivers who can dominate the middle zones, then this offense will be off and running. I think (and it seems Fisher agrees right now) that that's the way we should go.

IMO of course.

One point I really agree with you on is that if Keenum is the starter then I am also %100 behind him. I was with Bradford until the end and I even was with Davis for a while. I also understand Fisherball and what he hopes to do. The one thing that troubles me with it though is this. Every team tries to take away what you do. They aren't always successful, but either someone finds the recipe and is copied or at the least good teams can handle it. When teams decide to load up against the run Keenum has to be able to deliver. I don't mean deliver the average Fisher performance. He needs to become the man and carry the offense. If he cant do that and just stays the game manager then the team never takes the next step because they are one dimensional. Do, I think Keenum can be that kind of guy? Right now, I have my doubts, but I do like his character and leadership. He extends plays and is tough. Players respond to him. I was disappointed with the season ending 9ers game. I felt that was a glimpse of what we will see teams do with Keenum and he didn't turn it around and take charge like I had hoped.

 

[-X-]

One point I really agree with you on is that if Keenum is the starter then I am also %100 behind him. I was with Bradford until the end and I even was with Davis for a while. I also understand Fisherball and what he hopes to do. The one thing that troubles me with it though is this. Every team tries to take away what you do. They aren't always successful, but either someone finds the recipe and is copied or at the least good teams can handle it. When teams decide to load up against the run Keenum has to be able to deliver. I don't mean deliver the average Fisher performance. He needs to become the man and carry the offense. If he cant do that and just stays the game manager then the team never takes the next step because they are one dimensional. Do, I think Keenum can be that kind of guy? Right now, I have my doubts, but I do like his character and leadership. He extends plays and is tough. Players respond to him. I was disappointed with the season ending 9ers game. I felt that was a glimpse of what we will see teams do with Keenum and he didn't turn it around and take charge like I had hoped.

That's fair too. People are gonna see this through different lenses, and I respect that. What I don't respect is the *assertion* that Keenum is a shitty QB and this team is doomed to failure with him under center. That said, I don't know that I would define the 49er game as Keenum's ceiling though. Every QB has a game like that, every year. And it didn't help that our defense gave up 460 yards of total offense to a Blaine Gabbert-led team. We also didn't have Gurley for that one, the same meh receivers, and the 49ers always play us tough. My opinion is that a healthy Gurley, more athletic and dominant receivers, and a cohesive line is easily worth an additional TD a game (I'll also add a kicker who doesn't miss gimme field goals). As someone already pointed out, we were about 15 points away from being an 11-5 team last year. And that's with waiting on Foles to pull out of his tail spin and a late start with Gurley.

Could we improve on Keenum? Of course. No question. I don't think he's the answer. I've only maintained that he's capable of leading this offense to wins with the help of the defense, a stout ground game, and at least ONE receiver who can consistently win one-on-one battles. I really only think we're a very good receiver away from giving our offense the boost it needs to let our defense pin its ears back and dominate. There's nothing wrong with winning with defense. Unless the Rams move up to Wentz AND Wentz is the next great QB of our era, then I'm okay with improving the offense around the QB and getting the QB later. That's all.

 

[Riverumbbq]

One point I really agree with you on is that if Keenum is the starter then I am also %100 behind him. I was with Bradford until the end and I even was with Davis for a while. I also understand Fisherball and what he hopes to do. The one thing that troubles me with it though is this. Every team tries to take away what you do. They aren't always successful, but either someone finds the recipe and is copied or at the least good teams can handle it. When teams decide to load up against the run Keenum has to be able to deliver. I don't mean deliver the average Fisher performance. He needs to become the man and carry the offense. If he cant do that and just stays the game manager then the team never takes the next step because they are one dimensional. Do, I think Keenum can be that kind of guy? Right now, I have my doubts, but I do like his character and leadership. He extends plays and is tough. Players respond to him. I was disappointed with the season ending 9ers game. I felt that was a glimpse of what we will see teams do with Keenum and he didn't turn it around and take charge like I had hoped.

Same might be said about Bradford & Bulger, both of whom played behind poor OL's and bad receivers. Today is different in that we have a fresh young OL on the rise, … and with pretty good depth already leading the Defense, we now expect the Rams to address those receiver needs. It's far too early to compare Keenum with these other QB's, but he may actually have some new receiving weapons to play with soon, while simultaneously playing with a highly regarded young RB and an OL with plenty of upside. Hard to say yet where this is going, but I like Keenum's chances, and if he crashes & burns, next year we'll be looking for two new QB's.

 

[A55VA6]

Keenum isn't as terrible as some people like to think.

But if we trade up into the top 5-10 and draft Wentz/Goff, Keenum won't be starting. I just don't see it.

What I've seen alot of people talking about is taking a WR at 15, and then trading up for Connor Cook at the tail end of the 1st or early 2nd. If that were to happen, I could see Keenum starting, but only if Cook doesn't beat him out in Training Camp / Preseason.

 

[CGI_Ram]

I believe we trade up for a QB.

I believe Keenum starts early in the year.