Rams Need to Look at O-line Personnel/Wagoner

[Mikey Ram]

states the obvious, but fish said no changes, why is he trying to stir sh!t up?

Incredibly insightful...I had no clue that the interior of the line could be a problem...Going forward, I'll feel like an insider with my new found knowledge...Thanks, dude...

 

[Alan]

We're in the same vein Mac.

 

[-X-]

I agree that you play to win the game. I'll spare us all of the obligatory meme insert.

That said, Wells has played poorly and been a SIGNIFICANT factor in our losses. Interior pressure is how teams are beating us. Wells and Joseph have become the holes in our OL with Wells being the biggest problem, the biggest hole.

Now, would I want Fisher to replace Wells with Jones or anyone else if they weren't BETTER? Absolutely not.

Problem is that Fisher seems to insist on OLD vets at Center, even at the cost of performance. It's a TRUST issue with him. As in, he doesn't TRUST rookies or younger players at that position.

It's to the point where it's hurting the team. I mean, we have the worst Center in the entire NFL and he won't make a change...

So what's his other option? Jones had back surgery this year and had to get his strength back, plus he missed a bunch of camp and started out way behind. He may be a better option than Wells right now from a technical standpoint, but he may not be ready to call line protections or strong enough at the point of attack against some of these defenses we've faced - some of which have had mammoth run stuffers. Then there's the increasingly exotic nature of blitz packages. How much PT has Jones had that has given him the ability to recognize these things and call protections accordingly? I dunno, man. I just find it hard to believe that if Fisher knows Jones is the better option in *all* of the aspects of the game over Wells, that he would simply sit him because he doesn't trust younger players. That philosophy doesn't extend to other positions, so why only at center?

 

[DaveFan'51]

In my opinion, Fisher's reasoning is pretty Basic, at the end of the day, the only thing that people REALLY care about is the Win/Loss Record! You put the people in their that give you the best chance to WIN. Experience means something at this point!!

 

[Mackeyser]

So what's his other option? Jones had back surgery this year and had to get his strength back, plus he missed a bunch of camp and started out way behind. He may be a better option than Wells right now from a technical standpoint, but he may not be ready to call line protections or strong enough at the point of attack against some of these defenses we've faced - some of which have had mammoth run stuffers. Then there's the increasingly exotic nature of blitz packages. How much PT has Jones had that has given him the ability to recognize these things and call protections accordingly? I dunno, man. I just find it hard to believe that if Fisher knows Jones is the better option in *all* of the aspects of the game over Wells, that he would simply sit him because he doesn't trust younger players. That philosophy doesn't extend to other positions, so why only at center?

Well, it used to extend to the entire team.

Fisher used to not play rookies. At all. He was KNOWN for not trusting them.

Now, you bring up good points about the line calls and all that. I can't answer them, because I dunno. However, if there's a smarter guy in the building than Barrett Jones, it ain't Scott Wells. It just ain't. Barrett Jones got his Masters in Accountancy in 4 years while playing SEC football at Alabama... which means dood is wicked smart and has to pick things up fast because he couldn't have had all that much study time.

There's 2 guys that are "first in the building" guys. I think one is William Hayes. The other was Barrett Jones. He's already significantly transformed his body and made great strides in getting much, much stronger. We saw that when he played against KC. Jones just looked better than Wells.

Imho, I think they want to have CONTINUITY on the OL more than they are evaluating any one individual OL. So, even though Scott Wells is routinely the worst Center in the NFL, I think they're sticking with him because they OVERvalue continuity over performance.

Which is why we see our interior crumbling like Detroit's infrastructure and nothing being done about it...

Still, it's possible that Jones is gimpy, but I sure didn't see that against KC where he outplayed Wells by not just a little. Not that he was stellar, but compared to Wells, it was a really nice improvement.

Anyway, that's my take.

 

[-X-]

Well, it used to extend to the entire team.

Fisher used to not play rookies. At all. He was KNOWN for not trusting them.

Now, you bring up good points about the line calls and all that. I can't answer them, because I dunno. However, if there's a smarter guy in the building than Barrett Jones, it ain't Scott Wells. It just ain't. Barrett Jones got his Masters in Accountancy in 4 years while playing SEC football at Alabama... which means dood is wicked smart and has to pick things up fast because he couldn't have had all that much study time.

There's 2 guys that are "first in the building" guys. I think one is William Hayes. The other was Barrett Jones. He's already significantly transformed his body and made great strides in getting much, much stronger. We saw that when he played against KC. Jones just looked better than Wells.

Imho, I think they want to have CONTINUITY on the OL more than they are evaluating any one individual OL. So, even though Scott Wells is routinely the worst Center in the NFL, I think they're sticking with him because they OVERvalue continuity over performance.

Which is why we see our interior crumbling like Detroit's infrastructure and nothing being done about it...

Still, it's possible that Jones is gimpy, but I sure didn't see that against KC where he outplayed Wells by not just a little. Not that he was stellar, but compared to Wells, it was a really nice improvement.

Anyway, that's my take.

Perhaps. Being wickid smaht is great and all, but it doesn't equate to the football smarts that comes with experience. I think, as always, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I'm willing to bet Jones would be playing right now if he was further along in his development, and wasn't hampered by his injuries - which subsequently led to his falling behind in the ultra-important area of experience.

 

[Mackeyser]

Well, okay.

That said, Wells is the worst Center in the NFL by just about any statistical measure.

It's almost impossible to make any argument FOR him other than "he knows the calls" and "he has experience", but Jones also knows the calls and Wells is doing what exactly with that experience for HIM to deserve that job?

I'm thinking of it as a meritocracy. Best man should be doing the job.

If Wells is the worst in the NFL, unless Jones has physical or development issues, then he's almost de facto an upgrade. Heck, I'd take either Jones or Travis Barnes at this point...

 

[-X-]

Well, okay.

That said, Wells is the worst Center in the NFL by just about any statistical measure.

It's almost impossible to make any argument FOR him other than "he knows the calls" and "he has experience", but Jones also knows the calls and Wells is doing what exactly with that experience for HIM to deserve that job?

I'm thinking of it as a meritocracy. Best man should be doing the job.

If Wells is the worst in the NFL, unless Jones has physical or development issues, then he's almost de facto an upgrade. Heck, I'd take either Jones or Travis Barnes at this point...

I can live with that.

 

[SierraRam]

@Mackeyser , @-X-

Now that's what makes this forum awesome!

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Fisher wants to win the next two games and end on a high note. He wants to avoid the losing record. I do too.

The coaches know what they have on the roster. They know by now that Barnes, Jones, Person are not NFL starting material. They see them enough in practice.

 

[blue4]

Donald and Mason started when the coaching staff trusted them to do all aspects of the job. It's reasonable to assume Jones would have gotten the same chance.

 

[Mackeyser]

Well, then let's be clear.

If that's the case, then Jones, Barnes and anyone else who's a backup to Wells shouldn't be in the NFL after the Seattle game because Wells should be done after that game. By any measurable standard, Wells has been the worst Center in the NFL this year and it's been a factor in our losses.

Now, I don't believe Jones is worse than Wells nor is Barnes.

But if that is the case...then dump them all because I refuse to accept that Wells is "good enough" and that another year of Scott Wells is helpful to the Rams winning anything other than NOT being the youngest team in the NFL.

 

[BonifayRam]

It appears to me that unless there the starters are unhealthy or unable to play Fisher & Boudreau will go with the Main Stays starting unit until the end. After what they went through the last two season when the OL was in such a state of total collapse with new starting OL units each & every weak made it impossible to game plan. Those OL nightmares of the past are still in their memory banks!

Rams are paying Joseph nearly 2 mil & Wells nearly 3 1/2 mil for this season, so I would guess they will get their money's worth out of these way past their prime-time OL'ers who have worked hard to remain fully able to start each of this season games. To me that does say something! Wells & Joseph are really good guys who give much back to their communities. I am sure both of them are fully aware of their failures & overall dismal 2015 performance. It would not surprise me if both retire after this season.

Of the four younger OL'ers that ESPN Rams reporter Nick Wagoner mentioned only one (Barrett Jones) is under contract next season. The other three will enter free agency. I do not see any of those three Ram FA's being on a top 25 OL 2015 free agency list. Point being if the Rams desire them to return it would not be hard to get them back. In truth the Rams are fully knowledgeable of the abilities of Tim Barnes, Mike Person & Brandon Washington.

Mike Person saw the most snaps & time on field of all the Rams OL'ers in TC & preseason this season. Person has also been in on many offensive snaps in several games this season @ OLT & OLG, along with being in most all the ST's & 4th & goal line units. Person is UN-breakable & has been active for every Ram game this season! I do not believe Person is a strong candidate to be the Rams starting ORG or OC next season for Davin Joseph or Scott Wells.

Tim Barnes finished 5 Ram games last season @ center. Barnes has been a Rams since 2011. Like Person, Barnes has been a mainstay on ST's & 4th & goal units. Barnes did sustain an injury to his college surgically repaired shoulder that required him to miss close to 3 games. Once again here,Boudreau knows Barnes as well as possible & what he can do. Barnes might be a contender for a OLG post next season but is still a primarily a center.

Brandon Washington has been a Ram since the end of pre season of 2012. That's three full seasons under Boudreau. Washington has only seen action in one Ram game & that was @ OLG against Seattle in 2013. Brandon has not been active all season long. I do not think Brandon has starting potential in the NFL @ ORG nor @ OC & I see no reason to put Brandon in this offense.

That bring us to Barrett Jones, bottom line here is Person & Barnes are ahead of Jones now & both are fully ready to fill in at a moment notice so why would you remove Wells & insert your 8th OL'er who is less experienced into your starting unit if your not forced too? What would that say to Person & Barnes? Its been mentioned here that Jones has been seen playing OT behind the scenes......this does not surprise me at all may be a sign of things to come if Barksdale does not signup.

I believe that Fisher wants to continue to "set in concrete" the fact that his players need to use the off season to place themselves in the best possible playing condition when Training Camp begins. This is the time when players will compete for the starting positions. As a Ram be smart & use this off season time wisely. Because once the season begins & that OL starters are set.....His main goal is for those starters to remain the same & on the field to the end of the season barring injury.

 

[Rams43]

Well, it used to extend to the entire team.

Fisher used to not play rookies. At all. He was KNOWN for not trusting them.

Now, you bring up good points about the line calls and all that. I can't answer them, because I dunno. However, if there's a smarter guy in the building than Barrett Jones, it ain't Scott Wells. It just ain't. Barrett Jones got his Masters in Accountancy in 4 years while playing SEC football at Alabama... which means dood is wicked smart and has to pick things up fast because he couldn't have had all that much study time.

There's 2 guys that are "first in the building" guys. I think one is William Hayes. The other was Barrett Jones. He's already significantly transformed his body and made great strides in getting much, much stronger. We saw that when he played against KC. Jones just looked better than Wells.

Imho, I think they want to have CONTINUITY on the OL more than they are evaluating any one individual OL. So, even though Scott Wells is routinely the worst Center in the NFL, I think they're sticking with him because they OVERvalue continuity over performance.

Which is why we see our interior crumbling like Detroit's infrastructure and nothing being done about it...

Still, it's possible that Jones is gimpy, but I sure didn't see that against KC where he outplayed Wells by not just a little. Not that he was stellar, but compared to Wells, it was a really nice improvement.

Anyway, that's my take.

I think you pretty much nailed it in this post, Mackeyser. For whatever that's worth.

The other side has made good points, too, of course.

The final thing that pushes me over to your side is that Wells is clearly playing hurt. He's wearing an arm brace against NFL quality DT's and LB's, for crying out loud! Small wonder he's struggling. Duh...

I give him kudos for his courage and effort. But at some point doesn't it make sense to give the young lion his shot while the real bullets are flying?

I think so. I don't see how the vets would object to such a common sense decision, either. More likely they would nod their heads in approval, don't you think?

 

[BonifayRam]

The final thing that pushes me over to your side is that Wells is clearly playing hurt. He's wearing an arm brace against NFL quality DT's and LB's, for crying out loud! Small wonder he's struggling. Duh...

Wells was not listed on the Dec. 4th injury report for the Cards game. However he did miss practice time! He was listed as not practicing.
http://espn.go.com/blog/st-louis-rams/post/_/id/14366/rams-thursday-injury-report

Wells elbow injury did show back up on the Dec 9th injury report but he was Full participation!
http://espn.go.com/blog/st-louis-rams/post/_/id/14536/rams-tuesday-night-injury-report

Wells reappeared on the most recent injury list I could find. This list has Wells once again missing practice but it stated that it was NOT injury related.
http://www.stlouisrams.com/team/injury-report.html
http://www.nfl.com/teams/st.louisrams/injuries?team=STL

So go figure I have no ideal whats going on as far as how much that left elbow is bothering him but he does wear a Heavy Duty elbow brace. How CLEAR it is to him playing hurt IMO is an unknown.. Has Wells ever been healthy as a Ram?

Knee scoped in January of 2012
Knee surgery on the same knee in June of 2012
Broken Foot September 2012 IR'd
Knee surgery on the same knee January of 2013
Fractured his fibula in December 2013 IR'd
Tick-borne illness resulted in missing 2014 TC & some Pre season.
Elbow injury October 2014

Wells is listed in PFF as the worst rated center in the NFL in 2014.

 

[blackbart]

I have to think winning is more important that talent evaluation in game action. And, I trust Boudreau, by all accounts one of if not the best Oline coach in the NFL. They have seen these guys in practice now for going on 5 months, they know who is hurt who is recovering and who is not performing up to expectations. Is this unit in need of some upgrades, we all know the answer is yes but is this the time to try something? They know better than me and by the looks of it the answer is no.

I hate the reduced number of practice days in the spring and summer but it is what it is. Being able to develop the talent and peak in December and January while continuing to win enough games to make the playoffs is an art and this team is close to figuring it all out with these constraints.

Like I said I trust Bou and Fish to know better than me, it would be nice not to see any more of those short snap (Wells has to be cringing when he knows that is coming in the film review). And, I would love to see the Rams run the ball 50 time each in the last two games while inflicting massive pain (especially the seahags). At this point what else do they have to play for besides screwing up the seahags chances of home field advantage????

 

[V3]

states the obvious, but fish said no changes, why is he trying to stir sh!t up?

I don't see it as trying to stir shit up as much as I see it as stating the obvious question that many are asking now. If reporters never asked questions that might "stir shit up", we'd never get any answers worth a damn.

 

[Mackeyser]

Well, Bonifay, I surely can appreciate your POV.

And I've never taken a shot at Wells or Davin Joseph as people (i.e. I haven't called them crap or personal names or anything like that).

But... their performance is hurting the team. That point just can't be argued about.

Now, I really don't care WHY Fisher is sticking with them.... They're great guys... they work hard... they're blackmailing him... who knows? Not really the point.

My only point is that their poor play is hurting the Rams and that pursuing Continuity solely for the sake of Continuity is a fool's errand. If Fisher and Boudreau aren't getting the BENEFITS from Continuity...meaning they aren't getting the communication and performance that should come from Continuity... then, well, what the hell is it for? So they can remember their names easier? So they can make a point about "you earn you job in pre-season"?

Like Aaron Donald did? Like EJ Gaines did?

I like Fisher. I really do. That said, his aversion to rookies or at least his penchant for trusting OLD Vets can be taken to a fault. I know how that is. I'm loyal to a fault. It's cost me in real life, so I GET IT on a personal level.

I also get it that it's a problem that will prevent this team from being all it can be... because there will always be some OLD VET whom he trusts more than the most capable person.

How much it stunts this team's development, I dunno.

 

[VegasRam]

I agree to a point here X, but wouldn't you at least like to see what we have in Jones and maybe Person? I don't agree with all who say "it can't get any worse." We know it can, but good God, it can certainly get better too. How many whiffs does Joseph get? Wells has had his share of mistakes, too. I won't even bring up his mystery snaps. If the younger guys can't crack this lineup, then we'll need at least 4 OL in the off season. My depressing guess is Fisher already knows this and is playing his best hand... yuck

Given you avatar, shouldn't that have been yuck yuck?