Rams Draft Haul of 2014, Mack and Roby?

[jjab360]

With Bradford, I couldn't disagree more. Sorry. I'm not trying to start anything. Just being honest.

I'm pretty sure you know how irrelevant that is to the discussion of general positional value, which is why you added that last part in.

Even still, is there any O-lineman in the NFL right now that you would take over Robert Quinn? Quinn basically was our defense last year, there wasn't a single player on our team that had more of an impact or caused more of a disruption to opposing teams' game plans. Is there a single O-lineman in the league right now you could say the same thing about?

 

[tbux]

I'm pretty sure you know how irrelevant that is to the discussion of general positional value, which is why you added that last part in.

Even still, is there any O-lineman in the NFL right now that you would take over Robert Quinn? Quinn basically was our defense last year, there wasn't a single player on our team that had more of an impact or caused more of a disruption to opposing teams' game plans. Is there a single O-lineman in the league right now you could say the same thing about?

fair point- but fairer point- would Clowney have a bigger impact on this team as a rotational player than Matthews or Robinson? esp if JL is out longer than expected? I seriously doubt it.

 

[Angry Ram]

While I like a lot of things about Walter Football, I'd heard that their mocks were really bad. I ad never really looked at their mocks before so I had no opinion about them. Now I do have an opinion. I agree with all my fellow posters who told me they were crap.

But I still like Walter for other things. I think it's a good site.

Yeah only for finding out information on players and who will be actually drafted.

But his opinions and reasoning are on par w/ PD posters.

Plus his Jerks of the Week columns aren't funny anymore. He sounds like a whiny 3 year old in a mid 30s body.

 

[jjab360]

fair point- but fairer point- would Clowney have a bigger impact on this team as a rotational player than Matthews or Robinson? esp if JL is out longer than expected? I seriously doubt it.

Technically Quinn was a rotational player last year. He only had the 7th most snaps on the team and less snaps than Chris Long. The great thing about pass rushers is that they don't have to be on the field every snap to make their presence known. Besides, the draft isn't about next year but about the long term future anyway. Clowney would almost certainly be a full time starter from his second year on if we were to draft him.

 

[jrry32]

Denver runs a lot of 3-4 packages to utilize Miller's pass rushing skills and when they aren't, Miller can play a 4-3 well. And the value is what I've been talking about this whole time.

Denver's 3-4 packages also are run with their 4-3 personnel. Something we could easily do and something Williams has done in the past.

Mack can play in the 4-3 as well.

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion on value. There will be some that disagree. As it stands now, I'd rather not take Mack at #2. But in a trade down, I would be willing to take him top 10.

 

[Alan]

jjab360 with a narrow view:
A great pass rusher has a much greater impact/value than a great pass protector, imo. Doesn't really matter what side of the field they're coming from a great pass rusher can ruin an offense's game plan. Can't really say the same vice versa.

"A great pass rusher" is the the key to my point. You're correct in your view that they can have a huge impact on an offense. What you're failing to consider, IMO, is that the pass rush that disrupts the O can can from a different position or multiple positions on every play. In fact, it's much better if your pass rush does come from different positions every play because the O can't compensate in multiple places every play. How were they (supposedly) able to keep Clowney from getting a bunch of sacks this year. They just had a TE/RB chip him before he went out for a pass. Worked really, really well didn't it?

But more importantly (and now we get to the thing I love), the MATH is on my side. Lets say a team averages defending 30 passing plays per game and this incredible stud of a pass rusher averages 1 1/2 sacks per game (it's never happened yet but we're talking a generational pass rusher here) and another 3 hurries. That means the OT was successful on at least 25 1/2 plays. Although it would probably be more because a hurry doesn't mean an unsuccessful play. Who's accomplishing more and winning the majority of the battles?

 

[tbux]

Technically Quinn was a rotational player last year. He only had the 7th most snaps on the team and less snaps than Chris Long. The great thing about pass rushers is that they don't have to be on the field every snap to make their presence known. Besides, the draft isn't about next year but about the long term future anyway. Clowney would almost certainly be a full time starter from his second year on if we were to draft him.

agreed, but again- short and long term- ourDline is already VERY good, and so is the depth- our Oline is not very good overall. so again, I think OT makes way more sense.

 

[Alan]

Angry Ram opening new doors:
Plus his Jerks of the Week columns aren't funny anymore. He sounds like a whiny 3 year old in a mid 30s body.

I didn't even know they had a column like that. I read nothing on his site except player profiles. I like them because not only does he give a profiles on a player, he frequently talks about how they performed in particular games. When I read that, I can then look for a video of that particular game. I never look at any of that other stuff. I don't look at stuff like that on any other site either.

 

[jjab360]

"A great pass rusher" is the the key to my point. You're correct in your view that they can have a huge impact on an offense. What you're failing to consider, IMO, is that the pass rush that disrupts the O can can from a different position or multiple positions on every play. In fact, it's much better if your pass rush does come from different positions every play because the O can't compensate in multiple places every play. How were they (supposedly) able to keep Clowney from getting a bunch of sacks this year. They just had a TE/RB chip him before he went out for a pass. Worked really, really well didn't it?

But more importantly (and now we get to the thing I love), the MATH is on my side. Lets say a team averages defending 30 passing plays per game and this incredible stud of a pass rusher averages 1 1/2 sacks per game (it's never happened yet but we're talking a generational pass rusher here) and another 3 hurries. That means the OT was successful on least 25 1/2 plays. Although it would probably be more because a hurry doesn't mean an unsuccessful play. Who's accomplishing more and winning the majority of the battles?

I don't really get what you're trying to say, tbh. Sure, statistically the OT keeps the pass rusher from the QB the vast majority of the time whether they're terrible or they're great, but the difference between the OT that is successful 90% of the time vs 98% of the time is massive.

Also, a lot of the time it's not even about getting to the QB, but winning the LOS battle, forcing offenses to spend resources to stop you, and opening up opportunities for the rest of your teammates. O-linemen aren't able to have this type of impact, it's way more important to have an O-line without any weak links than having any one great O-lineman, imo.

 

[jrry32]

I don't really get what you're trying to say, tbh. Sure, statistically the OT keeps the pass rusher from the QB the vast majority of the time whether they're terrible or they're great, but the difference between the OT that is successful 90% of the time vs 98% of the time is massive.

Also, a lot of the time it's not even about getting to the QB, but winning the LOS battle, forcing offenses to spend resources to stop you, and opening up opportunities for the rest of your teammates. O-linemen aren't able to have this type of impact, it's way more important to have an O-line without any weak links than having any one great O-lineman, imo.

Disagree.

 

[jjab360]

agreed, but again- short and long term- ourDline is already VERY good, and so is the depth- our Oline is not very good overall. so again, I think OT makes way more sense.

I've said this over and over again, but I just want the best player possible. 5 years from now you don't want to look back and have passed on a generational talent for a mediocre OT just because it was a greater need. Not saying that's how it's going to turn out, but that's why I'm not really worried about need at the top of the draft.

 

[jjab360]

Disagree.

I'll take 5 average O-linemen that are on the same page and have continuity over almost any O-line that has a Quinn Ojinnaka in the lineup. May be hyperbole, but that one guy who gets beat every other play can ruin an entire offense.

 

[Alan]

An additional MATH note:
The Rams were 3rd in sacks and 19th in pass D. Did we really disrupt their passing game all that much? Let's draft another pass rusher so we can be 15th in pass D.

 

[jrry32]

I'll take 5 average O-linemen that are on the same page and have continuity over Orlando Pace and 4 Quinn Ojinnakas any day of the week. May be hyperbole, but that one guy who gets beat every other play can ruin an entire offense.

That's not really how you framed it. You didn't say one great OL and four bums.

Give me this OL:
LT - Joe Thomas
LG - Chris Williams
C - Alex Mack
RG - Rodger Saffold
RT - Joe Barksdale

Over this OL:
LT - Anthony Castonzo
LG - Justin Blalock
C - Scott Wells
RG - Jon Asamoah
RT - Joe Barksdale

The first OL has two great players, 1 good, 1 solid, and 1 liability. The second OL has all solid and good players.

 

[jrry32]

An additional MATH note:
The Rams were 3rd in sacks and 19th in pass D. Did we really disrupt their passing game all that much? Let's draft another pass rusher so we can be 15th in pass D.

Yea, that had more to do with scheme than anything. The Panthers secondary wasn't talented and they were the #2 defense in the NFL because of their front 7. Our DC utilized an awful, ineffective pass defense.

 

[jjab360]

An additional MATH note:
The Rams were 3rd in sacks and 19th in pass D. Did we really disrupt their passing game all that much? Let's draft another pass rusher so we can be 15th in pass D.

By that logic the Rams were 8th best in sacks allowed and 27th in pass O. Let's add another pass protector so we can be 23rd in pass O?

Truth is there's more to an O or D than just one unit but turning a strength into an even bigger strength never hurts.

 

[V3]

Denver's 3-4 packages also are run with their 4-3 personnel. Something we could easily do and something Williams has done in the past.

Mack can play in the 4-3 as well.

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion on value. There will be some that disagree. As it stands now, I'd rather not take Mack at #2. But in a trade down, I would be willing to take him top 10.

I could handle it in a trade down(I'd still prefer Clowney, either OT's, or either WR's before him, though). I won't like it if he's taken at #2.

 

[V3]

Denver's 3-4 packages also are run with their 4-3 personnel. Something we could easily do and something Williams has done in the past.

Mack can play in the 4-3 as well.

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion on value. There will be some that disagree. As it stands now, I'd rather not take Mack at #2. But in a trade down, I would be willing to take him top 10.

Just out of curiosity, do you think Mack could play MLB in a couple years to replace JL?

 

[jrry32]

Just out of curiosity, do you think Mack could play MLB in a couple years to replace JL?

Nope. I think it would be a total misuse of his skill-set.

 

[Alan]

jjab360 with skewed numbers:
the difference between the OT that is successful 90% of the time vs 98% of the time is massive.

Those numbers aren't correct and if you look at my last post you can see how much the sack ability really affects their O.

I don't disagree with your contention that a pass rusher does all the things you say he does. I just believe that you're greatly exaggerating the effects and ignoring the other things the OT does like blocking for the run and keeping the QB alive.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap20...eleases-2014-franchise-transition-tag-numbers
Franchise tags

Quarterback: $16.192 million
Running back: $9.54 million
Wide receiver: $12.312 million
Tight end: $7.035 million
Offensive lineman: $11.654 million
Defensive end: $13.116 million
Defensive tackle: $9.654 million
Linebacker: $11.455 million
Cornerback: $11.834 million
Safety: $8.433 million
Kicker/punter: $3.556 million

Those are the tag numbers for the different positions. At first glance it appears that the NFL agrees with you but then you come to the realization that the Offensive Lineman tag number includes Centers, Guards and Right Tackles. Of course, just like in a prior thread, just because the NFL and the NFLPA disagrees with your view point, it doesn't mean you're wrong. However, I'll continue to agree with those who think the LT position is more important.