Question for the Watkins and Tavon advocates...

[Rams43]

First, Sean McVay seems to be at least among, if not THE most creative Offensive mind in the NFL, right? I mean, if any HC could develop and emphasize the strengths of an O player, it would be McVay, right?

Can I get an Amen on that?

Okay...

Here are my two questions.

Why the pedestrian numbers in ‘17 for Watkins? [www.espn.com]

Why the abysmal numbers for Tavon in ‘17? [www.espn.com]

It just seems strange (okay, mind boggling) that two such highly touted O players should struggle under McVay and in his imaginative O.

Goff didn’t
Woods didn’t
Kupp didn’t
Gurley didn’t

Hard to blame the scheme, the coaching, or the play calling over the 16 week season.

Is it just possible that these players aren’t all that? Certainly compared to general expectations?

Watkins wasn’t a no-show, although I think it’s fair to say that he fell far short of general expectations. Hardly a ‘17 resume to justify a huge contract extension amount. At least IMO.

But Tavon? Hardly know where to start. I’ll just say that he has pegged my disappointment meter.

Put it this way. If neither are a Ram next year it wouldn’t cause me to fall out of my recliner. With apologies to the late Frank Sinatra, “If you can’t make it here, you can’t make it anywhere”.

 

[socalrams90]

Oh this thread again....


I won't advocate for TA but Sammy's value to the team has been discussed to death on here and there is a consensus that its not all about the numbers. McVay would be the first to tell you to look at the film to see what value he brings to the offense.

 

[BriansRams]

But Tavon? I’ll just say that he has pegged my disappointment meter.

That's vulgar. LOL.
You should probably keep your disappointment meter locked up.

 

[Loyal]

Sammy's value is drawing off the #1 Corner as others get the pass...That's this year without the offseason training and learning a system on the fly. Talk to someone else about Austin.

 

[BriansRams]

Tavon will be gone after this season of course. Some Dome/Turf team will put him to pretty good use with bubble screens and sweeps. He'll have some nice games but will never be elite, or even average as a receiver. But he wants more playing time. He'll be happy to move on.

 

[OldSchool]

Who says they struggled? I'd say the Rams and Goff let the offense go where it would and didn't force the ball to anybody. They took what the defenses offered. You look at most teams and they have 1 really good WR and a couple who are just ok. Their QB's don't trust the 3rd or 4th WR to make plays so they force the ball to WR1 or TE1 and the rest largely get ignored. Goff had 5 different targets who he trusted completely. He had a couple TE who he certainly wasn't afraid to throw the ball to either.

I think you're confusing the fact that he didn't force 100 receptions to a WR or two in to thinking they aren't as good as the WR's who did catch those 100 balls. All of our WR's are good and form a group that makes it hard for a team to take away one guy. So if they take away Watkins then Goff has no problem throwing to Woods or Kupp and they're interchangeable. How many teams can throw a 3 WR 1 RB 1 TE set out there and have the 5th option be Cooper freaking Kupp?

Watkins will get paid based off his abilities not the numbers he did or didn't put up. McVay and Goff realize how big a part of the passing game is. Even if some Rams fans and ignorant fans of opposing teams will criticize him for only 39 receptions and 593 yards. Let them think he isn't a threat or isn't good and lets prove them idiots for it.

As for Austin he's just not a WR who has the talent set to excel in a McVay offense it seems.

 

[fearsomefour]

Tavon will be gone after this season of course. Some Dome/Turf team will put him to pretty good use with bubble screens and sweeps. He'll have some nice games but will never be elite, or even average as a receiver. But he wants more playing time. He'll be happy to move on.

Saints.
He can run that Jet Sweep action with their backs in the back field and Brees.

 

[TexasRam]

We not me.

It’s brilliant.

Everybody gets experience and better. Everyone is locked in every play in run blocking as well.
No Diva’s. Unity.

Your Wr’s never get gaudy numbers or Pro Bowls so you can re-sign them for cheap.

 

[SteezyEndo]

There are still TA yes-men out there?...Jesus.

As for Watkins, pedestrian numbers? Its not fair to put Watkins on a thread for TA's shortcomings. Dude has been a Ram since the beginning of whats his face. Its inexcusable, and needs to be cut asap.

Watkins will show when TA is out of the picture.

 

[Florida_Ram]

My old friend @Rams43, you just can't get past the Watkins conundrum.

He didn't produce statistically as I thought he would this year but I would fall out of my recliner if the Rams let him get away over a couple of million dollars to a team like the 49ers, Cowboys or Seahawks to name a few.

In this unique McVay spread the ball around offense combined with a pass receiving RB like Todd Gurley, the statistical production of Watkins is not something that can simply be viewed as black and white when determining his value to the teams future.

There is plenty of "gray area" involved when fans do the eye test on Sammy. McVay and his offensive staff know everything that is not clearly seen to us in that gray area and he gets the overrated/unspectacular tag by some Rams fans.

McVay knows his dollar value and future worth much more than any of us from the living room do. Even those that are firm in Watkins' corner and understand how he opens up the field for the other chess pieces don't see the total worth in Watkins long term.

We haven't even seen Watkins in a playoff game yet so there is more to evaluate and observe.



++++++++++++

 

[Rams43]

Who says they struggled? I'd say the Rams and Goff let the offense go where it would and didn't force the ball to anybody. They took what the defenses offered. You look at most teams and they have 1 really good WR and a couple who are just ok. Their QB's don't trust the 3rd or 4th WR to make plays so they force the ball to WR1 or TE1 and the rest largely get ignored. Goff had 5 different targets who he trusted completely. He had a couple TE who he certainly wasn't afraid to throw the ball to either.

I think you're confusing the fact that he didn't force 100 receptions to a WR or two in to thinking they aren't as good as the WR's who did catch those 100 balls. All of our WR's are good and form a group that makes it hard for a team to take away one guy. So if they take away Watkins then Goff has no problem throwing to Woods or Kupp and they're interchangeable. How many teams can throw a 3 WR 1 RB 1 TE set out there and have the 5th option be Cooper freaking Kupp?

Watkins will get paid based off his abilities not the numbers he did or didn't put up. McVay and Goff realize how big a part of the passing game is. Even if some Rams fans and ignorant fans of opposing teams will criticize him for only 39 receptions and 593 yards. Let them think he isn't a threat or isn't good and lets prove them idiots for it.

As for Austin he's just not a WR who has the talent set to excel in a McVay offense it seems.

We agree on Tavon, OldSchool.

Now, about Watkins? I get your argument about effect on game trumping mere receiving stats.

Let me ask you a question, though.

When you heard that Watkins was acquired in the trade, what went through your mind?

I’m guessing that it was something more than 39 catches and 593 yards. Especially in a contract year.

It certainly was for me.

 

[Rams43]

My old friend @Rams43, you just can't get past the Watkins conundrum.

He didn't produce statistically as I thought he would this year but I would fall out of my recliner if the Rams let him get away over a couple of million dollars to a team like the 49ers, Cowboys or Seahawks to name a few.

In this unique McVay spread the ball around offense combined with a pass receiving RB like Todd Gurley, the statistical production of Watkins is not something that can simply be viewed as black and white when determining his value to the teams future.

There is plenty of "gray area" involved when fans do the eye test on Sammy. McVay and his offensive staff know everything that is not clearly seen to us in that gray area and he gets the overrated/unspectacular tag by some Rams fans.

McVay knows his dollar value and future worth much more than any of us from the living room do. Even those that are firm in Watkins' corner and understand how he opens up the field for the other chess pieces don't see the total worth in Watkins long term.

We haven't even seen Watkins in a playoff game yet so there is more to evaluate and observe.



++++++++++++

Just trying to call ‘em as I see ‘em, Florida. Lol.

 

[Memento]

I honestly have nothing against Tavon. He accepted his role without any complaints. He bought into the "we not me" philosophy. I don't think he'll be back next year, but I have no complaints. He is who he is.

And I do want to keep Watkins because he plays a huge role in keeping at least a #1 cornerback on him at all times.

 

[SteezyEndo]

He accepted his role without any complaints.

On a hush hush. For what he got paid why would he. The best thing he could of done was face the music and take 1 for the team. He could of taken a pay cut. Simple. Those type of things matter especially when it shows on a grand scale. He could F the entire WR value by inflation.

 

[Memento]

On a hush hush. For what he got paid why would he. The best thing he could of done was face the music and take 1 for the team. He could of taken a pay cut. Simple. Those type of things matter especially when it shows on a grand scale. He could F the entire WR value by inflation.

I'm not talking about his contract. I'm talking about his playing time steadily decreasing. Got demoted from punt return duties. Became what basically amounted to a backup running back/decoy/gadget player instead of a number one receiver.

He didn't complain about his role. He accepted it for the good of the team. I have no problems with Austin because of that.

 

[Jacobarch]

Make it stop

 

[SteezyEndo]

I'm not talking about his contract. I'm talking about his playing time steadily decreasing.

At the end of the day it is his contract. And he is the only one who can make changes to it if so desires. Its blatantly obvious for what he does for this team is minimal yet price is high, hence my inflation comment for WRs.

 

[Memento]

At the end of the day it is his contract. And he is the only one who can make changes to it if so desires. Its blatantly obvious for what he does for this team is minimal yet price is high, hence my inflation comment for WRs.

And I firmly believe that - at the end of the day - it's performance on the field and attitude in the locker room that matters more than a contract. The contract will resolve itself in the offseason. From what I've seen, Tavon has no issues in the locker room, and has bought into McVay's philosophy entirely.

 

[Merlin]

First, Sean McVay seems to be at least among, if not THE most creative Offensive mind in the NFL, right? I mean, if any HC could develop and emphasize the strengths of an O player, it would be McVay, right?

Can I get an Amen on that?

Okay...

Here are my two questions.

Why the pedestrian numbers in ‘17 for Watkins? [www.espn.com]

Why the abysmal numbers for Tavon in ‘17? [www.espn.com]

It just seems strange (okay, mind boggling) that two such highly touted O players should struggle under McVay and in his imaginative O.

Goff didn’t
Woods didn’t
Kupp didn’t
Gurley didn’t

Hard to blame the scheme, the coaching, or the play calling over the 16 week season.

Is it just possible that these players aren’t all that? Certainly compared to general expectations?

Watkins wasn’t a no-show, although I think it’s fair to say that he fell far short of general expectations. Hardly a ‘17 resume to justify a huge contract extension amount. At least IMO.

But Tavon? Hardly know where to start. I’ll just say that he has pegged my disappointment meter.

Put it this way. If neither are a Ram next year it wouldn’t cause me to fall out of my recliner. With apologies to the late Frank Sinatra, “If you can’t make it here, you can’t make it anywhere”.

Tying Tavon to Watkins is ridiculous 43. I know you know that. It's an insult to a real WR who actually catches the ball and can stretch the field. So let's keep this to Watkins, because Tavon honestly isn't worth discussing.

Watkins has made plays when the Rams throw the ball to him. He isn't always a top read, and this offense is designed to go away from him if the look shows him with help over the top. You might hate it, but it's hard to argue with RESULTS. It works.

If there is anything to criticize, it's that he's open a lot when the read doesn't get to him. THAT is McVay and how he sets the reads for a given opponent. So IMO what you have going here is that McVay is getting used to what he can trust Sammy to do, Goff is getting used to what he can trust Sammy to do while he also grows as a QB, and Sammy is getting more and more comfortable in this offense.

I want the Rams to draft defense, and to sign a couple of our DBs to ensure our defense doesn't crash and burn next year. If they don't sign Sammy, or tag him at the least with a transition tag to allow for matching his offer, then they'll have to find an X receiver potentially in the draft. WRs on the open market are coveted man, it isn't easy to get a guy of his ability, but he loves it here so why not get him signed.

 

[OldSchool]

We agree on Tavon, OldSchool.

Now, about Watkins? I get your argument about effect on game trumping mere receiving stats.

Let me ask you a question, though.

When you heard that Watkins was acquired in the trade, what went through your mind?

I’m guessing that it was something more than 39 catches and 593 yards. Especially in a contract year.

It certainly was for me.

I thought we finally had a guy who was capable of running all the routes but especially the deep route to open things up for the other receivers and Gurley while still having the ability to produce by himself. I didn't put any numbers to my thoughts on him I never do (I'm probably the only regular around here that never participated in the guess a score weekly thread). The Rams had the #10 passing offense after giving their offense week 17 off and mailing it in for 5 or 6 quarters in other games we were blowing out the other team. We led the league in scoring. Sammy Watkins contributed to all of that in ways that numbers can't measure.

Every week people here, yourself included and in some cases led by, were creating posts talking about how we needed to involve player X Y or Z more in the offense. Usually centered around Watkins or the TE's. Yet week after week we put up 30 points. We were in the first year of a new offensive system with a QB who has now only started 22 games. BTW Goff likely would have hit 30 TD's if we played him week 17 and Brady never hit 30 TD's until 7th year as a starter when he hit 50.

I've rambled a bit here but my basic message is relax. Patience! Enjoy the ride! We're acting here in this thread like we're a finished product when our two offensive leaders are 23 year old kids! Numbers will increase, again we were 10th in passing yards but 24th in passing attempts. Let that sink in for a minute. The offense if fine, I wish people would let them grow and see what their final form is. Because the early results are freaking beautiful. I'm enjoying the hell out of it.

Also Watkins reduced numbers help us to be able to resign him IMO. If he were to have put up the numbers you feel he should have the cost would be double what they are now.