Putting it in perspective.

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-X-

Medium-sized Lebowski
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The Dude
Since Bradford was drafted in 2010, there are exactly three other players (not three other receivers or O-linemen) from his rookie year of four years ago that are still with the team now. One of which is an O-lineman (Saffold). The other two are Long and Laurinaitis. That represents a turnover of 48 players since 2010 when you include Bradford himself in the 52. In 2011, the Rams added a bunch of players, but only 3 remain today (Kendricks, Pettis, Quinn). That's 6 players from his first two years who are still on the team today. Not six offensive players. Six players.

After Fisher took over, it all changed again. We added, on offense, the following players that are still here from the 2012 roster as of today:

O-line:
Tim Barnes
Scott Wells
Joe Barksdale
Brandon Washington

O-linemen since purged from the roster of 2012: Rokevious Watkins, Ty Nsekhe, Robert Turner, Barry Richardson, Shelley Smith, Quinn Ojinnaka, Wayne Hunter.

Wide receivers and TE's:
Chris Givens
Brian Quick
Austin Pettis
Cory Harkey

Receivers and TE's since purged from the roster of 2012: Danny Amendola, Brandon Gibson, Steve Smith, Matthew Mulligan.

------

Last year Fisher and Snead loaded up again, so we'll see what the carry-over is from that roster to this one, but it's obviously getting better. There's also the potential to add more players in this draft who could end up lasting more than 1-4 years with the team, and subsequently, the QB.

Boiling it all down, since 2010, Bradford has had to work with the following O-linemen (guys who were actually on the field with him). Some were backups forced to play to spell an injury, others were thrust into starting roles to replace an injured player.

Renardo Foster, John Greco, Jason Smith, Jason Brown, Adam Goldberg, Hank Fraley, Roger Saffold, Jacob Bell, Tony Wragge, Mark LeVoir, Thomas Welch, Kevin Hughes, Drew Miller, Bryan Mattison, Rokevious Watkins, Barry Richardson, Ty Nsekhe, Chris Williams, Joe Barksdale, Quinn Ojinnaka, Robert Turner, Wayne Hunter, Harvey Dahl, Scott Wells, Tim Barnes, Max Starks, Brandon Washington, Jake Long.

That's 28 offensive linemen in 4 years. Of them, 4 remain.

Bradford has also had the following receivers, backs, and TE's to work with since 2010 (aka, 'Support'):

Steven Jackson, Keith Toston, Kenneth Darby, Danny Amendola, Mike Karney, Billy Bajema, Laurent Robinson, Brandon Gibson, Darcy Johnson, Michael Hoomanawanui, Daniel Fells, Mardy Gilyard, Mark Clayton, Danario Alexander, Jerious Norwood, Nick Miller, Lance Kendricks, Brandon Lloyd, Stephen Spach, Mike Sims-Walker, Greg Salas, Austin Pettis, Cadillac Williams, Steve Smith, Daryl Richardson, Cory Harkey, Terrance Ganaway, Matthew Mulligan, Chris Givens, Mike McNeill, Isaiah Pead, Zac Stacy, Benny Cunningham, Jared Cook, Tavon Austin, Brian Quick, Stedman Bailey.

That's 37 backs, receivers and tight-ends in 4 years. Of them, 12 remain. 11 brought in by Fisher/Snead.

Draw what conclusions you want from that, but I feel as though having 16 offensive players remain from his rookie year out of 65 (SIXTY FIVE), is a bit out of whack. If someone wants to pick another 4 year starter in this league (throughout history) who had the same amount of turnover in his first 4 years, I'd love to see it. I can throw in the wildcard of also having 3 offensive coordinators and 2 head coaches in the same span, but that's just making it impossible.

P.S. My math might be off, as I threw this together on a whim. If you notice any irregularities, you can go ahead and file them in the don't-give-a-shit file. Because it's still an inordinate amount of turnover.
 

Alan

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" but only 4 remain today (Dahl, Kendricks, Pettis, Quinn)"
I don't think we still have Dahl -X-. He's one of the purged.
Ha! Just read the "don't give a shit" part. :LOL:
 

CGI_Ram

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Burger man
Well done.

And this;
Renardo Foster, John Greco, Jason Smith, Jason Brown, Adam Goldberg, Hank Fraley, Roger Saffold, Jacob Bell, Tony Wragge, Mark LeVoir, Thomas Welch, Kevin Hughes, Drew Miller, Bryan Mattison, Rokevious Watkins, Barry Richardson, Ty Nsekhe, Chris Williams, Joe Barksdale, Quinn Ojinnaka, Robert Turner, Wayne Hunter, Harvey Dahl, Scott Wells, Tim Barnes, Max Starks, Brandon Washington, Jake Long.

Equals this;
steamingPileOfShit.jpg
 

-X-

Medium-sized Lebowski
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The Dude
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
" but only 4 remain today (Dahl, Kendricks, Pettis, Quinn)"
I don't think we still have Dahl -X-. He's one of the purged.
Right you are. Keeps getting worse. lol.
 

DR RAM

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So, what you are saying is that the Rams just slightly re-tooled a little?
 

max

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Bradford has had a monstrously bad setting. If any QB had it worse, I don't know who. And surely no successful NFL QB has ever overcome the handicaps that Bradford has endured since being drafted. I think the closest I can think of was Jim Plunkett who had to go to his 3rd team before achieving winning success.

I think there is a lot to what Snead said about Bradford finally showing progress and why would we want someone else to reap the benefits.
 

V3

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The Pete Carroll regime has basically done the same thing in Seattle. Since he took over, I think they still have maybe two or three players from the original roster over a three year period. I point this out because after this season we'll get a pretty close comparison between the two regimes and how well each has rebuilt.
 
Last edited:

wrstdude

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This is why football metrics don't line up the same way as baseball metrics do.

In football there could be 20 different variables that make a pass play fail. Each passing play is "snowflake-like" in its uniqueness. Each passing situation yields a different set of circumstances (down, distance, coverage, receivers, play, etc).

To put it another way if the football writers of the world were scientists running an experiment to grade QBs the scientific community wouldn't pay any attention to their findings. Not only are their experiments void of the scientific method, but they ignore all the variables. They infect a host w/ 3 viruses, leave it alone for a year w/ zero observation & say definitively that 1 of the viruses killed the host. The variables are "excuses."

Correlation = causation in their world.
 

scifiman

Guest
If you applied the same turnover rate to all teams you would find almost the same thing especially when you are a rebuilding team. Some qb's around the league switched teams and did quite well. Manning, Palmer and Alex Smith come to mind to name a few. To them every player is new and they have to learn a different system and terminology. I just can not figure out this massive defense of Sam at QB routine. I have given the benefit of the doubt to Sam for 4 years now. If he does not elevate his play to the next level this year he should be gone. That's it. No more excuses about linemen or wr or rb from the fans. Time for him to step up and make everyone better around him no matter who they are or how long they have been with the team.If he gets injured again this year would it be safe to say he is injury prone? Or are some going to be making excuses for that. All I know is if SB were on another team I doubt the same defenders of SB would not be defending his play and would not want the rams to trade or acquire him. But if he steps it up this year then I will support him and the team as usual and want him to stay a ram. I just want a lot more from the #1 franchise qb draftee.
I also stumbled across a site that can really increase your football IQ. Check out http://smartfootball.com/passing/attacking-coverages-in-the-passing-game#sthash.kx6WfniG.dpbs I have no affiliation at all and there is some cool info.
 

EastRam

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So what are you saying? Is this a re-build? rotflmao...oops thats so good I'll say it again...rotflmao
 

Yamahopper

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Excellent post. Sobering.
I remember when we had threads debating whether it was a rebuild or a retooling. ...And in the end it was freaking nuked.
 

Cullen Bryant

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And in spite of all that he was,

Rookie of the year, setting an NFL record ( at the time ) for passing yards by a rookie.
Then had an even better year in 2012 in every category.
Was on pace for 30+ td's and less than 10 int's in 2013.

Can't wait to see how good he is when the talent around him is up to his level.
 

-X-

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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
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If you applied the same turnover rate to all teams you would find almost the same thing especially when you are a rebuilding team. Some qb's around the league switched teams and did quite well. Manning, Palmer and Alex Smith come to mind to name a few. To them every player is new and they have to learn a different system and terminology. I just can not figure out this massive defense of Sam at QB routine. I have given the benefit of the doubt to Sam for 4 years now. If he does not elevate his play to the next level this year he should be gone. That's it. No more excuses about linemen or wr or rb from the fans. Time for him to step up and make everyone better around him no matter who they are or how long they have been with the team.If he gets injured again this year would it be safe to say he is injury prone? Or are some going to be making excuses for that. All I know is if SB were on another team I doubt the same defenders of SB would not be defending his play and would not want the rams to trade or acquire him. But if he steps it up this year then I will support him and the team as usual and want him to stay a ram. I just want a lot more from the #1 franchise qb draftee.
I also stumbled across a site that can really increase your football IQ. Check out http://smartfootball.com/passing/attacking-coverages-in-the-passing-game#sthash.kx6WfniG.dpbs I have no affiliation at all and there is some cool info.
If I applied the same turnover rate? I'm not sure what that means. It's not a formula. It's raw data. But if you're implying that all teams that rebuild have the same amount of turnover (16 offensive players remaining from the two rebuilds said QB was a part of), then by all means show me some examples. That's going to be your duty if you're making an assertion based on theory. I'm aware of Peyton Manning's immediate success, and that's remarkable considering he only has 16 years experience and serves as his own coordinator. Not to mention the crappy receivers, scrub O-linemen, bottom ranked defense, and absense of a ground game (that's not the case? Oh, my bad). And the Alex Smith story rivals that of Cinderella's, no doubt. Of the 11 teams "he" beat, 1 had a winning record. Conversely, all of "his" losses were against teams with a winning record. That aside, how do you know Bradford couldn't go to a team with a top 5 defense, lose to all the teams with winning records, and not do as well? The quick answer is you don't know that. And those were completely irrelevant examples anyway.

If you can't figure out this massive defense of Sam at QB 'routine', then you're not paying attention. I'm not some fucking fanboy who has a Sam Bradford Fathead on my wall and collects his memorabilia. And I CERTAINTLY don't need Smart Football's website to fortify my football acumen. I've played, I understand the game very well, and I have the common sense to know what instability, injuries and roster turnover can do to team chemistry. I also know, personally, what injuries can do to confidence and how it takes you out of your element. And if everything I put in the OP qualifies as an "excuse" to you, then I guess you'd have no problem applying it to other teams as well. Specifically, take a good hard look at the 2004 and 2005 Titans while under Coach Fisher. That's a team that won an average of 11 games over a 5 year span (56 wins) to winning only 9 over two.

If that's too much work for you, or you're not interested in doing some thinking on your own, then you can continue to let Smart Football do it for you. I already know what happened to that team over those years, and it has striking similarities to the circa 2009 rebuild of the Rams. But I dare not use the "I" word with you now. It'd quickly be cataloged as an excuse, I'd imagine. So I'll go ahead and join you in your alleged hopes that Sam Bradford steps it up this year so you can join ME in supporting him and the team as usual. If he gets injured, you're god damn right it would be considered an excuse. What else would you call a player's inability to play? Fate? But if it so happens that we have to move on due to that, then whatever. It won't faze me one bit. I have nothing personally invested in Sam Bradford the person. Just as he has nothing personally invested in me. Knowing what happened to the first few years in his career is just employing Smart Football. Nothing else.
 

wrstdude

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Additionally an explanation does not equal an excuse.

If @-X- explains, as he so eloquently has numerous times, why events have unfolded, it does NOT mean he's excusing the results. Explaining the process is the first step in understanding results. Ignoring the explanation & dismissing it as an "excuse" is "the world is flat" level of ignorance.
 

The Rammer

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That's a hell of a article X. Really does sum up what Bradford has had to deal with since being drafted. Thinking this and next year will start bing part of the consistency that qB's thrive upon
 

blackbart

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I knew it was bad but after seeing it written down I can't believe Bradford has been able to accomplish what he has and that he's only been hurt twice.

Disregarding this information is laughable, just as thinking what he did in 2013 is can be easily dismissed as the same old thing, whatever that is.

Thanks @-X-
 

RamFan503

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If you applied the same turnover rate to all teams you would find almost the same thing especially when you are a rebuilding team. Some qb's around the league switched teams and did quite well. Manning, Palmer and Alex Smith come to mind to name a few. To them every player is new and they have to learn a different system and terminology. I just can not figure out this massive defense of Sam at QB routine. I have given the benefit of the doubt to Sam for 4 years now. If he does not elevate his play to the next level this year he should be gone. That's it. No more excuses about linemen or wr or rb from the fans. Time for him to step up and make everyone better around him no matter who they are or how long they have been with the team.If he gets injured again this year would it be safe to say he is injury prone? Or are some going to be making excuses for that. All I know is if SB were on another team I doubt the same defenders of SB would not be defending his play and would not want the rams to trade or acquire him. But if he steps it up this year then I will support him and the team as usual and want him to stay a ram. I just want a lot more from the #1 franchise qb draftee.
I also stumbled across a site that can really increase your football IQ. Check out http://smartfootball.com/passing/attacking-coverages-in-the-passing-game#sthash.kx6WfniG.dpbs I have no affiliation at all and there is some cool info.
I get it. Anyone who sees what Sam has been up against is making excuses and needs to have their football IQ increased. Guess Fisher should go check out smartfootball.com so that he too can be schooled in football 101. He came to St Louis largely because of Sam and hasn't backed away. He must just be defending Sam.

So smartfootball.com - Is that the site you tell your wife or girlfriend to go read when you're trying to watch the game and she wants to know why the QB is pointing and why some of the guys are up on the line and some aren't and what that guy is yelling and.....?

And BTW - Take a little tour around the available information out there and tell us how much better almost every Ram receiver has played with a QB not named Sam. I suppose the FACT that most of them have had their best numbers playing catch with Sam has nothing to do with Sam making them better. Nah - couldn't be.

I've said it before that no player is bigger than my team. But wanting to get rid of a talented player because you want to turn a blind eye to all the obstacles AND the successes is IMO - ignorant. .