Postgame Notes & Thoughts (long)

[Merlin]

After a rewatch in which I jotted things down and replayed some stuff, apologies for being all over the map it's sort of a stream of consciousness thing...

Rams ran a 2 down lineman look on big passing downs with AD & Brock as the two linemen with a great deal of success. Right out the gate on the Saints second possession the Rams defense held on third down forcing the 3 'n out with AD instant pressure on Brees that forced a questionable pass to Cook that was just out of the reach of Rapp (that was the throw he hurt his thumb on btw). Have to think at some point we'll see teams run draw plays vs that look, but it was impressive.

In general the Saints' offense had no answers for the Rams' defense. Even early when Brees was in there, the Rams were winning the LOS and swarming to the ball with excellent coverage. Our defense also forced a ton of penalties up front as a result of them winning the LOS (Rams even declined a 15 yard personal foul in the first half because they got the stuff for lost yards). This bodes well if we see them again in the playoffs assuming they get there and get Brees back.

Goff had nerves early on. He missed some throws he usually makes, missed some open receiver options (Everett was a better option than Kupp in the redzone just before the half) but also had a big drop work against him. During the game yesterday I was of the opinion that his protections were terrible. They really weren't though. He had some pressure in his face time to time, but basically this was a playoff game in week 2 and the truth IMO is he had to settle in and he did. Impressive overall day for him to my eye at least, because winning ugly at QB is a skill that only the best possess.

Gurley had some runs where he wasn't seeing the holes very well IMO. Maybe it's the lesser carries (the great ones to include Gurley really get better as the game goes on with the snaps). He also had some plays where he could have fought for some yardage by turning it up but instead elected to go out of bounds. I presume, giving him the benefit of the doubt here, that is about preserving his knee. But it surprised me.

Brown had a great day in terms of seeing the holes and quickly making his cuts to get the most from the chaos on the runs with traffic. IMO he's one of those backs who's a natural for picking his way through traffic and he has the balance to stay on his feet through a lot of contact.

Our edge rushers had a fine game overall. Matthews & Fowler were excellent as a duo and pressures were frequent. But also Wade did a great job moving them around and subbing in Ebu who you could also feel there wasn't a ton of dropoff. Really happy with how they looked vs a very good Saints OL.

First possession in the redzone for the Rams following the big pass play to Cooks (which had exemplary protection for Goff on a 3rd down and forever btw) the Rams started out with a run up the middle that had fantastic blocking by all 3 interior OL, followed by a penalty to set the Rams up for a 2nd and 2 and easy TD. But McVay got a bit too cute with a play action attempt (in which Goff didn't sell the action) for which a run would have scored (blocking was there again), followed by a left side screen that got blown up. IMO that first offensive series McVay outsmarted himself. The run was there shoulda trusted his line.

If Cooks hauls in that pass by Goff on third down (at 6:15 on the clock first quarter) you are talking HUGE PLAY and field position flip. Was a ton of green for him to operate in with the DB trailing. Just a huge drop in a situation in which the offense was pinned back inside their 10 due to a nice punt and Gnats fielding the fair catch. It's funny... During the first watch it seemed like the Rams were struggling offensively. But now I realize they had flipped the field on the previous series with the long pass to Cooks, and basically SHOULD HAVE flipped the field again with another huge reception to him. Basically they were soooo close to clicking early on with a very hot start, a dropped pass away. And on the Saints' side of things, after giving up big time receptions to the Texans all night in game 1 they should be very concerned that the Rams didn't take advantage of what was there; they have problems in their secondary IMO, at least in matching up with good passing games.

In the first watch through I saw Hav gettin worked. But tbh both Big Whit & Havenstein were mismatched on the edge. Saints really have a nice edge tandem and the reason Hav didn't get a lot of help is because their focus was on both edges where Whit was struggling too. I'm used to ignoring LT which is a testament to Whit. But damn it surprised me to see that they were applying heat to both tackles the entire game (Hav struggled more, obviously). Cred here again to the Saints too, as you can draw things up all you want but players gotta win their matchups and the Saints won a lot of them on the edge. Their edge rush is excellent.

Interior OL had a far stronger game than I thought. Allen played his best game of his career, not saying much I realize but still... He made the calls without any free rushers, held up well vs the pass, and excelled in run plays (lots of examples of him making 2nd level blocks particularly on the pitch plays). Boom had a very strong matchup but held his own very well. Even Blythe who I like to give a hard time played well through that first half of the game before he was injured. Demby came in and had a really rough start but I have to admit settled down and played well. I feel way better about these guys now.

DL played lights out vs one of the league's best OL. Not only did the real AD show up but he also came back to the game after an injury to gut it out. SJD had a very strong game in the middle, I was really impressed with how he stuffed things up and was a big part of the reason why we played the run so well. And Brock might have had one of the best games I've seen from him since 2017. I mean damn. He moved around, got pressures, stuffed the run, and looked like the guy who is a team leader that leaves it all on the field we remember from a couple seasons ago.

Secondary had not only a great game plan, but executed it at a very high level. Receivers were blanketed on many of the plays. And the safeties just can't say enough about them when they (and Littleton) hold a guy like Kamara down. Even with Brees out their performance was outstanding.

Three teams in the NFC West sitting at 2-0. Gonna be a fun season dudes. Oh and McVay is 20-0 when leading at halftime.

 

[SteveBrown]

Saint gave up 8.1 yards per pass last year (worst in the NFL I think). A lot of talen in front 7, but only one good corner----you need 3. They also only have one good WR.....so very good roster, but not great. I wil take ours....any day

 

[RAMBUSH]

I love our secondary .... hell , i love our defense... And DEFENSE wins championships....

 

[FrantikRam]

Just a random thought I've been having - I almost wonder if this is Gurley's goodbye tour - for one thing, he isn't right, and for another - dude seems almost like a zombie inbetween plays. Wondering if this was all worked out between Todd and the Rams staff (and they'd be keeping it quiet for obvious reasons) and was the reason for drafting Henderson and keeping Malcolm.

 

[Juice]

First possession in the redzone for the Rams following the big pass play to Cooks (which had exemplary protection for Goff on a 3rd down and forever btw) the Rams started out with a run up the middle that had fantastic blocking by all 3 interior OL, followed by a penalty to set the Rams up for a 2nd and 2 and easy TD. But McVay got a bit too cute with a play action attempt (in which Goff didn't sell the action) for which a run would have scored (blocking was there again), followed by a left side screen that got blown up. IMO that first offensive series McVay outsmarted himself. The run was there shoulda trusted his line.

I'm glad somebody else saw this as well. After the first series, I looked at my wife and told her that Mcvay didn't need to stray from the run. He WAS overthinking it a little on 2nd and short situations throughout the first half. I know he knows better than me, but 2nd and short in an obvious game where you want to keep the offense off the field?

 

[Ramstien]

Merlin that was a good read but one thing you left out was the play of Rapp. This guy made an impact on this game and did a good job against Cooks. He looks like a star in the making.

 

[Zaphod]

Brown had a great day in terms of seeing the holes and quickly making his cuts to get the most from the chaos on the runs with traffic. IMO he's one of those backs who's a natural for picking his way through traffic and he has the balance to stay on his feet through a lot of contact.

Yes, I appreciate his patience with blocking as well.

 

[Merlin]

Merlin that was a good read but one thing you left out was the play of Rapp. This guy made an impact on this game and did a good job against Cooks. He looks like a star in the making.

Yeah his coverage ability is insanely good for a rookie. I agree he is gonna be a star in this league what a great pick he was. I mean how nice is it to finally be able to cover TEs on defense? That position has been torturing us it seems like forever lol.

 

[BonifayRam]

.......................
Rams ran a 2 down lineman look on big passing downs with AD & Brock as the two linemen with a great deal of success. Right out the gate on the Saints second possession the Rams defense held on third down forcing the 3 'n out with AD instant pressure on Brees that forced a questionable pass to Cook that was just out of the reach of Rapp (that was the throw he hurt his thumb on btw). Have to think at some point we'll see teams run draw plays vs that look, but it was impressive.

In general the Saints' offense had no answers for the Rams' defense. .............

Base D was called 29 times. Wade's newly created special 2-4-5 Defensive scheme was called 43 times. Here's the surprise @Merlin.... Wade also called this 2-4-5 six times on first down. What does that tell you? The Saints highly rated top #5 OL was by Wade. This includes the early part of the game when Brees was still healthy.

I am sure Wade is ceasing the talent & ability of Fowler & Matthews being fully utilized in this scheme. The 4 is composed of two OLB'ers, one ILB'er & one safety. Ebukam will sub for both Fowler & Matthews.

DL coach does not use NT Sebastian Joseph-Day in this 2-4-5 scheme. His two DL'ers are made up of Donald, Brockers, Fox & Smart. I did watch closely the play of Joseph-Day is not having much of an impact. Normally one OL'er is tasked to work on SJD with good results by the OL'er. Saints center won most of his battles last Sunday. This may be one reason why Wade has moved to this 2-4-5 scheme that excludes his starting NT SJD. Fox is generally playing the run much better than last time I saw him late 2017.

 

[WestCoastRam]

So 2-4-5 personnel is:

AD - Brockers
Fowler-Littleton-Rapp-Matthews
Peters-JJ-Weddle-Talib

Is that right?

 

[Merlin]

Base D was called 29 times. Wade's newly created special 2-4-5 Defensive scheme was called 43 times. Here's the surprise @Merlin.... Wade also called this 2-4-5 six times on first down. What does that tell you? The Saints highly rated top #5 OL was by Wade. This includes the early part of the game when Brees was still healthy.

I am sure Wade is ceasing the talent & ability of Fowler & Matthews being fully utilized in this scheme. The 4 is composed of two OLB'ers, one ILB'er & one safety. Ebukam will sub for both Fowler & Matthews.

DL coach does not use NT Sebastian Joseph-Day in this 2-4-5 scheme. His two DL'ers are made up of Donald, Brockers, Fox & Smart. I did watch closely the play of Joseph-Day is not having much of an impact. Normally one OL'er is tasked to work on SJD with good results by the OL'er. Saints center won most of his battles last Sunday. This may be one reason why Wade has moved to this 2-4-5 scheme that excludes his starting NT SJD. Fox is generally playing the run much better than last time I saw him late 2017.

Yes it was impressive. And I think what is helping is they have better quality OLB who can sub in there, so maybe that's the difference. Matthews, Fowler, Ebu, all are strong at the point and can stand a lineman up if they need to.

Re: SJD gotta say I am very happy with him. I was doubtful about him figuring all those offseason reports were fluff. But he anchors in there pretty well, certainly better than we had from Suh during the regular season, and it's helping in the run game. He does get blown off the ball at times, but honestly at that position you're not gonna win every snap. When we face a team like Seattle I think having him as well as Gaines right there behind him is going to serve us well.

But you're right that Wade is making the most of his edge talent. His defense has always been at its best with a quick edge threat and he's got the best edge group this year that he's had since he came to us. IMO give Wade talent and it's gonna pay off. Very happy with the defense man, it's a beautiful thing.

 

[Merlin]

So 2-4-5 personnel is:

AD - Brockers
Fowler-Littleton-Rapp-Matthews
Peters-JJ-Weddle-Talib

Is that right?

They did sub some dudes in there in the 2 man fronts but I think that was when AD went to the locker room for his back. Fox was in there if I'm not mistaken. So yeah I think AD & Brock are the preferred 2 men in that look and they absolutely crushed it yesterday. Brock was a beast.

 

[FarNorth]

I'm glad somebody else saw this as well. After the first series, I looked at my wife and told her that Mcvay didn't need to stray from the run. He WAS overthinking it a little on 2nd and short situations throughout the first half. I know he knows better than me, but 2nd and short in an obvious game where you want to keep the offense off the field?

Imo McVay's ongoing default to the pass is a product of being caught up too much as the play caller in the aggressive play calling process in his head. He seems to always be caught up in looking for the next big play. A pass more often seems to promise that. Maybe if he weren't calling every play he could take a step back and see a broader view.

Sometimes a simpler strategy is better. Sometimes power football is better. Giving the O line a chance to just maul, putting the ball in the hands Gurley as our best playmaker and scorer. Especially in the red zone. Sometimes other factors, such as time left or ball control, need to be factored in. Sometimes you negate the chance of a big pass play or creative play design when you go to the well too often.

Look, we all love McVay and his aggressive attack mode. But my concern is that he has become too predictable in this approach. Other teams know his tendency and now prepare for it. McVay needs to get to a place where, like New England, it can sometimes be impossible to tell whether the Rams will predominantly run or pass, not just on the next play, but for a whole series or possession or half. Then the creative pass plays and play action will be truly unstoppable.

 

[shovelpass]

Base D was called 29 times. Wade's newly created special 2-4-5 Defensive scheme was called 43 times. Here's the surprise @Merlin.... Wade also called this 2-4-5 six times on first down. What does that tell you? The Saints highly rated top #5 OL was by Wade. This includes the early part of the game when Brees was still healthy.

Sorry Boni but this formation is neither newly created or special, it's basically the 3-4 D's Nickel package, though some defenses run a 3-3-5. Last seaon Wade used a 3-3-5 often because of the lack of edge rushers. The prior season we ran a 2-4-5 with Quinn and Barwin on the outside. Subbing a safety in for the 2nd ILB has been a recent trend, the Rams and Cardinals started it a few years ago. I'll post a link below. The player in the photo should look familiar.

I think that a big part of the reason why they went heavy with their nickel formation is because they were more concerned with pass coverage. The Saints had double the amount of pass attempts(35) to run attempts (18), and with Kamara being just as dangerous as a receiver it makes sense to have more speed and coverage ability on the field. Also since the Saints were behind the 2nd half it also makes sense that they would throw it more.


https://www.footballstudyhall.com/2015/5/1/8528407/modern-defense-and-the-2-4-5-vs-the-3-3-5

Modern defense and the 2-4-5 vs the 3-3-5

The 4-3 Defense and 3-4 Defense are antiquated terms that don't help fans understand the types of players their teams are looking for in the draft or in recruiting. Here are some updated terms that will bring some clarity.
By Ian Boyd@Ian_A_Boyd May 1, 2015, 4:23pm EDT

Kim Klement-USA TODAY Sports

For years fans and pundits of football have tended to describe defenses by the personnel employed in their fronts, as in "are they a 4-3 defense or a 3-4 defense?"

This has become an increasingly out-dated and unhelpful way to describe what teams are doing for a variety of reasons. One reason for the uselessness of this terminology is that defenses are coming to be defined more by an outside-in paradigm with the coverages determining everything up front. What's happening up front is secondary to the defense after what they are doing on the back end.

Another is that there are "4-3" teams that will play their weakside or strongside 9-tech defensive end in a stand-up position and even occasionally drop him into coverage. Are they now a 3-4 defense despite utilizing the exact same front? Teams came to be better defined by whether they were asking their DL to be one-gap or two-gap players but then hybrid defenses started to take over in which some DL were two-gapping and others were not.

Finally there's the fact that with the rise of spread passing games at every level of football, most teams are rarely in 3-4 or 4-3 personnel packages anyways, instead playing nickel sub-packages. Since those nickel packages are the primary strategy for defenses, teams prioritize players that will fill the roles of those packages.

However, there are two nickel fronts that are coming to encompass the common packages of modern football in the way that the 3-4 and 4-3 served to describe what most teams were doing in the past.

The 2-4-5 front:

And the 3-3-5:

Each of these fronts tends to borrow more from one of the two dominant fronts of the 4-3 defensive era, the Over and Under shifted fronts. In college there are still teams that play their nickel packages with four down linemen, particularly quarters teams like Ohio State, Michigan State, or Kansas State that will ask their DEs to two-gap at times.

However, across the game these two fronts and personnel groupings are starting to define the main counters to modern offenses.

2-4 personnel vs 3-3 personnel
The 2-4 or 3-3 labels serve primarily to describe the types of players on the field. The 2-4 is going to feature only two true defensive linemen that are always going to be lined up with their hands in the dirt with an opposing blocker on either shoulder.

Then in place of defensive ends there will be two DE/OLB hybrid players on the edges in stand-up positions who specialize in attacking the edge and providing a pass-rush. The two inside linebackers behind these players are normal inside linebackers.

The 3-3 front features three true defensive lineman as the "defensive end" though they may line up on the edge, are big and sturdy enough to play interior gaps or face a double team. The nose tackle will generally be a standard big guy, with some exceptions.

The three linebackers behind the DL all need to be fairly versatile as well and although one of them might be the designated primary edge-rusher, each of them need to be competent performing as inside linebackers or blitzers.

Each style has certain requirements on the types of players that are required and which style a team chooses largely depends on if the defense has easier access or an easier time developing a couple of really athletic edge rushers and tackles as the 2-4 calls for or can find and develop the kinds of versatile, tweener players that make the 3-3 work.
The 2-4-5 is ultimately a defense of specialization as the main pass-rushers are going to be the two stand-up edge rushers. The defense deploys them on the edge because that's the easiest way to utilize a pure pass-rusher and they aren't asked to do a great deal other than control the edge and provide pressure. The defensive tackles will tend to specialize in clogging up the interior and helping collapse the pocket while the linebackers are running free as support players.

Without access to the kind of elite pass-rushers that can attack the edge and overcome an offense's best efforts at pass protection, the 2-4-5 is not a superior nickel package. It can also struggle against the run if defensive tackles aren't sturdy or the linebackers are deficient. However, it is the simplest and best way to allow big, fast, and powerful athletes to impact the game and attack the quarterback.
The 3-3-5, or 8-3, is more a defense of versatility and disguise that will require the DL to all be strong at filling interior gaps and ideally decent or good at collapsing the pocket. The linebackers are not specialists but "jacks of all trades" that can be transformed into superior pass-rushers by virtue of the system disguising where they are blitzing from.

Without versatile and intelligent players, the 3-3 is dead in the water, but when those pieces are in place it can pick on offense's weaknesses with greater precision and bring pressure from all angles.

2-4 vs 3-3 philosophy
At their hearts, the 2-4 and 3-3 are basically extensions of 4-3 Over and 4-3 Under philosophies. The Over front is generally the defense people are thinking of when discussing teams that "spin down" safeties into linebackers and linebackers into defensive ends.

The aim is to get speed on the field and allow it to run to the football with as little complication as possible. In the 4-3 Over that involves four down lineman but in nickel sub-packages where the pass-rush takes an even greater priority than it makes sense to allow the defensive ends to become more like permanently blitzing linebackers.

The 4-3 Under defense is one that's about filling interior gaps with big strong defenders, controlling the line of scrimmage, and dictating where the offense can go with the football. The 3-3 continues in that vein while acknowledging that it now requires fewer big bodies to control the line of scrimmage in a nickel package against spread out offensive sets with three or more receivers.
Either defense might employ or not employ two-gapping techniques by some or all of the DL but the only players that would do so would be the two interior DTs in the 2-4 and the three DL in the 3-3.

When it comes to converting to these packages from base 4-3 or 3-4 groupings, that can very much depend on the team's best personnel over any other factor.
Just yesterday in the NFL draft the Pittsburgh Steelers chose Bud Dupree from Kentucky, a 6'4" 270 pound edge athlete that will have obvious utility as an edge rusher in their nominally 3-4 defense.

Of course, you can't play a true 3-4 defense anymore with two players of Dupree's size and skill at outside linebacker or you'll be picked apart by spread formations that ask them to cover slot receivers and tight ends in space. It would be a waste of Dupree's pass-rushing and edge talents to ask him to drop in coverage as often as the Steelers would ask of previous OLBs in their zone-blitz driven defense and counterproductive regardless.

So do the Steelers maintain their zone blitz/cover 3 philosophy from a 3-3 front or do they maintain their preference for playing two powerful edge rushers by instead utilizing a 2-4 that is less well suited for disguising blitzers? That may well depend on how quickly Dupree comes along as well as the other OLBs on the roster.

The fact that Pittsburgh is supposed to be a 3-4 base team has less to do with their nickel package than which players they want on the field and what they want to do behind the front.
To take another example, the 3-4 oriented Alabama Crimson Tide will generally remove their 2nd outside LB/pass-rusher from the field in their "4-2-5" nickel package and instead play fronts that utilize 3-3 personnel.

This style of defense can often be as effective at rushing the passer as the 2-4-5 but unless the single edge rusher is a dominant player, the team essentially needs someone to pull double duty as both a good DE/NT/ILB and a dangerous pass-rusher.

Updating the language
Football punditry is desperately behind the ball in terms of using accurate and descriptive terminology to explain what's happening today on the football field. You'll often hear talking points about a team in the draft or in recruiting that revolves around finding ideal fits for a 4-3 or 3-4 base defense.

More often than not, talking points based on those terms will have very little value in describing what those teams are looking for and how they'll deploy players. In an age where the nickel package is really the base defense, teams will be defined more by whether they prefer to play three true defensive linemen or only two.

While someone can refer to the NFL as "THE National Football League" and it somehow catch on within a month as a way to make professional football sound like an important and serious business enterprise, updating schematic language is less likely to catch on as easily.

However, try thinking of defenses as either 2-4 or 3-3 when evaluating this current draft or your team's recruiting season and see if that helps your understanding of why your team makes their personnel choices.

 

[shovelpass]

Re: SJD gotta say I am very happy with him. I was doubtful about him figuring all those offseason reports were fluff. But he anchors in there pretty well, certainly better than we had from Suh during the regular season, and it's helping in the run game. He does get blown off the ball at times, but honestly at that position you're not gonna win every snap. When we face a team like Seattle I think having him as well as Gaines right there behind him is going to serve us well.

I agree. I thought SJD played well, he's not the type that'll get into the backfield but he clogs up the middle really well. I noticed a few times that he was able to gain leverage on his man and basically control him without leaving his gap.That's something that I thought hurt us with Suh, he'd get into the backfield leaving a huge hole in the middle, and Suh might be a beast but how often is a NT going to chase down a RB.

 

[FarNorth]

So 2-4-5 personnel is:

AD - Brockers
Fowler-Littleton-Rapp-Matthews
Peters-JJ-Weddle-Talib

Is that right?

Whatever the formation, seems to me that's our best lineup in terms of players.

 

[BonifayRam]

Sorry Boni but this formation is neither newly created or special, it's basically the 3-4 D's Nickel package, though some defenses run a 3-3-5. Last seaon Wade used a 3-3-5 often because of the lack of edge rushers. The prior season we ran a 2-4-5 with Quinn and Barwin on the outside. Subbing a safety in for the 2nd ILB has been a recent trend, the Rams and Cardinals started it a few years ago. I'll post a link below. The player in the photo should look familiar.

New was not the best word I should have used...... maybe the word modified re-figured alignment would have been better words to paint the proper picture.......but yes your right Wade has utilized varying scheme since he arrived in 2017.

Last season Wade did have varying uses of this scheme but it usually comprised of 3 DL'ers as the most often used base. I was trying to stress the fact that Wade used the 2-4-5 scheme this past Sunday more than his previously most used base 3-4-4 or his 2nd preference last season of a 4 DL'ers (including Fowler in 3 point -1 LB (Littleton)-6 DB's ( JJ III/ Joyner/ Christian/ NRC/ Talib & Peters).

The new defensive players for 2019 ....replacing of Weddle for Joyner & Rapp for Christian has reaped rewards thus far for Wade.

 

[BonifayRam]

So 2-4-5 personnel is:

AD - Brockers
Fowler-Littleton-Rapp-Matthews
Peters-JJ-Weddle-Talib

Is that right?

Here's who lined up yesterday for snaps:
ER- Matthews/Ebukam
DT- Brockers/ Fox
DT- Donald/ Smart
ER- Fowler/ Patrick
LB- Littleton
SAF- Rapp
SAF- Weddle
SAF- JJ III/
NK- NRC
CB- Peters
CB- Talib

 

[Zodi]

Just a random thought I've been having - I almost wonder if this is Gurley's goodbye tour - for one thing, he isn't right, and for another - dude seems almost like a zombie inbetween plays. Wondering if this was all worked out between Todd and the Rams staff (and they'd be keeping it quiet for obvious reasons) and was the reason for drafting Henderson and keeping Malcolm.

I feel like it is, too. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if Todd retires after this season. Damn shame, too, because he's one of the best backs I've ever seen and he's one of my all time favorites.

 

[BonifayRam]

Clay Matthews experiment already paying off in big way for Rams
by Dan Parzych

Clay Matthews experiment already paying off in big way for Rams

It's only been two games, but the Clay Matthews experiment already appears to be paying off in a big way for the Los Angeles Rams.

ramblinfan.com