Once-in-a-lifetime prospect? Scouts break down Clowney

  • To unlock all of features of Rams On Demand please take a brief moment to register. Registering is not only quick and easy, it also allows you access to additional features such as live chat, private messaging, and a host of other apps exclusive to Rams On Demand.

Thordaddy

Binding you with ancient logic
Joined
Apr 5, 2012
Messages
10,462
Name
Rich
That makes no sense. If you are trading out, you aren't selecting him. Fail logic does not compute.
Don't be insulting, we are talking about whether to draft Clowney or not so all options are part of the consideration,again watch how you say things
 

BonifayRam

Legend
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
13,435
Name
Vernon
Let me ask you this. Does this look like a turnstile offensive line to you?
LT: Jake Long
LG: David Yankey(2nd round pick)
C: Tim Barnes or Barrett Jones
RG: Rodger Saffold
RT: Joe Barksdale
And yet we could still come away with this OL AND Clowney.
The ridiculousness is the idea that we only have one pick to use to do that. We have free agency to plug holes. Then we have 7 rounds of picks...with 2 picks in the first round to spend on players. To pass up a ridiculous talent to grab a need is about as short-sighted of a move as you can make. As someone else said in another thread, it's what the Cardinals did back in 2007 when they took Levi Brown over Adrian Peterson.

Most likely Jrry 32 you may do not know that you & I have been in full agreement dL'er Jadeveon Clowney as our 1.2 selection. I also agree that Snead may be able to regroup on the OL with draft picks 1.13, 2.44, 3.75 & 4.#103. It would make Snead work extrahard to find a self ready OT/OG but possible the best prospect IMO would be Zack Martin @ 1.13 or maybe Taylor Lewan. Both have never played OG. I not all that please with Lewan & his past body of work. They could perform a reach for OLT Cyrus Koundjio or Morgan Moses NOT a good thing. Looks he would be forced to select Martin cuz Lewan would not be able to start @ an OG post early in the season.

This jrry32 off the hip mock 2014 OL is not probable its more like highly unlikely 2014 Ram OL. The 2014 OL as it is today is a great example of TURNSTILE OL!
*David Yankey is the top rated OG by most mock drafts if not the first OG off the boards he will certainly be the second. That 2nd rounder @ #44 where you claim Yankey will be there?? :unsure:very wishful thinking jrry not your normal way of operation;) both Yankey & Xavier Su Filo will be gone. I am hoping DB Joyner will be the pick.

*Jake Long is not even began his long draw out rehabbing effect on a reconstructed right knee & we are drinking all the Ram Org. PC koolaid that Long's right knee will be as good as before without any setbacks, plus he will jump off the training table & start the first regular season game with little or none prep time. Yep I sure all our 2014 RDE's are shaking in their Nike's right now in fear.

*Rodger Saffold returning to StLouis? the same team who has had to deal with Saffold's history? This same team that has had to move OL'ers around & sign several high priced UFA OL'ers just to play & start @ Saffold's OLT post.... that Saffold resulted from his very short list of injuries..... (See below the short list of his few injuries & try to find a real reason why the Rams org. will overpay for many yrs to come in cap funds for more of that injury drama.) Add to that you may want to throw in that Snead has current injury concerns & worry with other 3 other high $$ cost UFA' OL'ers. Saffold is certainly no turnstile but the Ol'ers that have to replace him would be !

2010 rookie season missed parts of two games
9/17/10-Back Injury missed many practices
11/14/10-Ankle Sprain missed rest of game
11/21/10-Shoulder Bruise missed rest of game

2011 second year missed 7 full games & parts of two other total 9 games
10/16/11-Ankle Sprain missed rest of game
11/13/11-#1 Head Concussion missed rest of game
11/18/11-Pectorial tears missed rest of the 2011 season

2012 third season missed 6 full games & parts of 2 other total 8 games
9/9/12-#2 Head Concussion/Neck Sprain first preseason game missed the next two games
9-16-12-Knee grade 3 sprain to MCL missed 6 games
12-10-12-Back Injury missed rest of game.

2013 4th season Saffold only finished 8 games that he started.
8/8/13- Shoulder Dislocation 1st preseason game missed rest of preseason.
9/15/13- Beginning of the 2nd quarter of the 2nd game injured Knee Sprain to MCL lost his starting post @ ORT to Barksdale when Saffold walked on the field 5 weeks later Saffold was a reserve OL'er & rotated in on some of 3 games series. When Dahl was injured reserve Saffold filled in & started 7 games for Harvey Dahl until Saffold was injured with his 3rd Head Concussion in the last game.


Looks to me the 3rd & 4th round picks would have to be Ol'ers targeted like Gabe Jackson, Joel Bitonio or with the 3rd pick & then follow up in the 4th @103 looking for Brandon Thomas, Billy Turner, James Hurst or Jawuan James in the 4th, to build up that OL with so many missing pieces.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Messages
5,808
Clowney is that much better than any DB, check any source, or preferably multiple sources of pre-draft overall rankings. Many have Clowney #1 overall. Not a centaur, or griffin or cyborg. Human, but #1 overall.

If a team's biggest need is a blocking full back, should they completely ignore that need at 1.2 just to make a luxury DE pick?

You didn't address scheme.

It's all a matter of opinion but assuming Clowney is much better than any DB, drafting Clowney at 2 means you either delay taking OL which delays taking DB, or you take a DB at 13 regardless and wait until the second to take OL, you end up with a worse player at a position of need regardless of how you go about accounting for drafting Clowney.

Our biggest need isn't a blocking FB it's a player to stop our QB coming off a serious knee injury from getting killed behind a sub par O line. But if
 

Ramifications

Guest
I suppose that's true, Jake Long could be back game 1, we could re-sign Saffold, Jones may become a very good OG. Give me a 100% guarantee of those three happening and we can draft whoever you want (although please get some DB help).

As I've said already nothing stopping it at all, just that your odds of finding a good one decrease exponentially the longer you wait.

Also Wells and Dahl, we don't know EVERYBODY is gone, doubt Fisher, a HC known to prefer vet OL, is going to gut the interior coming into and important season in the rebuild cycle. We still have the 1.13. It is possible no DBs have been taken at that point (safety or CB), I wouldn't worry about the exponential part. Good interior OL will be avail on day two of the draft.

A key concept is the draft isn't for one season, a player could be around for two contracts and close to a decade. IF, hypothetically, Clowney is as good as advertised, bummer if we made a short term move to cover Jake Long and he returns week two.
 

kurtfaulk

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Sep 7, 2011
Messages
15,968
and I have no problem with that, that's what we are all here to do, but we can only butt heads on a post so much before it becomes redundant. all im saying is your not going to change my mind and im not going to change yours so why keep this up? for whats its worth I never said our opinions mean nothing on here, what I was saying is those opinions are not going to be discussed in the warroom on draft day so really they are nothing but our personal opinions.

i'm pretty sure they will be having the same discussions leading up to the draft and in the war room.

.
 

ChrisW

Stating the obvious
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Messages
4,670
Don't be insulting, we are talking about whether to draft Clowney or not so all options are part of the consideration,again watch how you say things
My apologies Thor.

Let's go back to our list of needs you referenced in a different post. Would you agree that at the top of the draft you would take BPA or trade down? It might be a bit of a stretch to take Matthews or Robinson there. And I don't see us touching Watkins, TBH.
 

BonifayRam

Legend
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
13,435
Name
Vernon
Also Wells and Dahl, we don't know EVERYBODY is gone, doubt Fisher, a HC known to prefer vet OL, is going to gut the interior coming into and important season in the rebuild cycle. We still have the 1.13. It is possible no DBs have been taken at that point (safety or CB), I wouldn't worry about the exponential part. Good interior OL will be avail on day two of the draft.

A key concept is the draft isn't for one season, a player could be around for two contracts and close to a decade. IF, hypothetically, Clowney is as good as advertised, bummer if we made a short term move to cover Jake Long and he returns week two.

Fisher & Boudreau are not dummies either & know better to throw away 8.5 million in priceless rare cap $$$ funds in two often injured, in decline @ age 33 yrs where both have had four surgeries & have been IR'd three times the last two seasons. yes I am sure that their preferences for well seasoned vets will kick the crap of of their wisdom side braincells making Fisher & Boudreau fully believe that Dahl & Wells are dependable wonderful starting Ol'ers here to help the Rams knock the weak Seahawks down from the top of the NFL.

Agreeing with you on your comment "'key concept is the draft isn't for one season'" (y)I sure wish I had your ability to think so soundly that Jake Long who at this time has not even began his first rehabbing event... an event that he been through with his body numerous times as you & I debated previously that his reconstructed right knee as you prescribed will be fully healed and back to his previous playing level @ 2014 @ season beginnings...damn your good! I know from my lifes experiences that things just don't normally go as planned For close to 60 yrs now I find that this happen over & over & over again. Any move on insurancing the blind side OLT will never be a short term move.
 
Last edited:

jjab360

Legend
Joined
Jan 21, 2013
Messages
6,636
I tried to make it as simple as I could man.
You defined the coaches draft ethos as "scared" and fired him in the same sentence,pretty shoot from the hip single factor undervaluing of stability in the position,what other single factor do you want to fire a coach over?

It's just not reality that you give a guy a contract that doesn't include the results of his actions.Coaches get 4 year contracts in the NFL and have to win by the third year, but you and jrry want him to plan for 5-10,good luck with that.

Clowney is so far off our list of needs and some of our needs are so compelling,I consider advocating that we draft him unrealistic and those who advocate it slaves to their dogma.
jjab360 said:
Honestly, I don't get your point. Are you trying to say that the long term future isn't important for coaches? And by long term I don't mean 5-10 years, I mean 2-4 years. If that was the case, why would any team ever draft a QB in the first round, seeing as rookie QBs are so rarely successful?
I see a lot of words, but I really don't see where you addressed my post.

As for Clowney not being a need, I think you're missing the point here. Our no.1 need right now is talented playmakers. Honestly, that's probably our perpetual no.1 need. If you don't think Clowney is that talented then that's one debate (that you'd probably be on the losing side of), but if you do view him as the talent that pretty much everybody else sees and still wouldn't draft him then you'd be making a rookie mistake.

When it comes down to it, pass rushers are the second most important position in the game behind the QB. They're also the position that probably sees the most rotation, if you include interior pass rushers. When you combine these two factors, you really can't have enough of them, need or no need. I don't see how else I could break it down to you that this isn't just about being a "slave to dogma":rolleyes:, it's about building the best team possible with as many impact players as possible. That's the ultimate goal of the NFL Draft, not filling needs to save your job like you seem to think.
 

Thordaddy

Binding you with ancient logic
Joined
Apr 5, 2012
Messages
10,462
Name
Rich
My apologies Thor.

Let's go back to our list of needs you referenced in a different post. Would you agree that at the top of the draft you would take BPA or trade down? It might be a bit of a stretch to take Matthews or Robinson there. And I don't see us touching Watkins, TBH.

I have no issue with BPA as a factor ,but only as A factor, need is IMO equally important and possibly more important BECAUSE need helps create stability in coaching, which there is another thread about how our BPA at a position of need has suffered because there was no stability in coaching.

In the end getting dogmatic about any of this is asking for trouble .

IMO we need to realize none of these guys are finished products there is uncertainty in any draft choice and that coaching and experience are vital in the development of even the penultimate BPA of all time.
 

Ramifications

Guest
whats unrealistic IMO is calling a player who has never stepped foot on an NFL field a once in a lifetime or once in a decade player, especially one whose last year in college was nothing to write home about, one whose HC felt the need to call out in the media, red flags to think about and the fact that Dline is already one of the top 3 in the NFL, and major needs elsewhere, makes no sense to me.

Everybody who hasn't played in the NFL s in the same boat. Scouts have to distinguish them. They might say Watkins is the best WR in his class, or make a historical note, and say best since AJ Green and Julio Jones. Or they may say Clowney is the best overall in his class at any position.

We're you as skeptical when Calvin Johnson was called one of the best PROSPECTS ever, being that he was nearly 6'5" 240 lbs. with a 4.3 and Combine record setting broad jump? Clowney is the Calvin Johnson of DEs as an physical specimen, athlete and prospect.

Did you not agree with the scouts that said Luck was the best PROSPECT since Peyton Manning and John Elway? We're Johnson and Luck mythical beasts, chimeras?

Addressed upthread, but Spurrier issued an apology/retraction. Nobody seems to be considering the possibility that he was simply hurt, maybe he thought he could go and had a setback. Some people think Bradford was a wimp for missing 6 games and not playing well in others, but he was hurt. Percy Harvin missed half the 2012 season after being second in production after Calvin Johnson, some called him a malingerer, but SEA without hesitation traded for him and ponied up top 5 WR money.

Major needs where, though? We have bookend OTs. Not taking a guard at 1.2. Not taking a DB at 1.2. We do have more than one pick, and can address other needs later at more value appropriate spots, so we don't make positional reaches. There are few more impactful moves we could make than take the pass rush to another level and make opposing QBs even more uncomfortable.
 

jjab360

Legend
Joined
Jan 21, 2013
Messages
6,636
Actually you can't say that for anyone but yourself,I am assuming trading out of the spot is an option and I think some others are as well
I think you missed the point. He's saying "this thread is assuming we won't be trading down" as in the premise of the thread, not that the posters in this thread think we won't be trading down.

I think the majority of Rams fans see us trading down, I honestly don't see how we couldn't.
 

Ramifications

Guest
So we want a defensive line like a vault door and an offensive line like a turnstile?

Ok.

See SEA and CHI. OL was dominant. So far, we don't know the entire OL will be unavailable en masse, though that seems to be prevalent assumption in the thread.

The 1.2 isn't the only pick in the draft. You don't take guards at 1.2.

IMO, some remember the heinous DAL and SF games in the first month with the turnstile comments. That was before they inserted Stacy into the starting lineup and found their running identity. In the 2-3 games AFTER that before Bradford went down, he was something like the #2 QB. Not exactly a turnstile from that perspective.
 

Ramifications

Guest
I think you missed the point. He's saying "this thread is assuming we won't be trading down" as in the premise of the thread, not that the posters in this thread think we won't be trading down.

I think the majority of Rams fans see us trading down, I honestly don't see how we couldn't.

I'm not necessarily assuming that, though at times I've mentioned 1.2. I do think we trade down, and very possible we take Robinson or Watkins.

It is within the realm of possibility we trade down with CLE, QB goes 1-2-3, and we could still take Clowney, so they may not be mutually exclusive. Under that scenario, we also might trade down a second time with ATL to 1.6, and could possibly still get one of the LTs or the WRs, though that would seem unlikely.
 

Ramifications

Guest
Couldn't you also use all of FA and the rest of the draft to acquire a rotational DE?

Not that would be as talented as Clowney, no.

Could you get once-in-a-decade prospects like Calvin Johnson or Andrew Luck with FA or lower draft picks?
 

Ramifications

Guest
so you are saying you draft them hoping that the hype is real? not real smart IMO.

Were Calvin Johnson and Andrew Luck hype?

They were called generational PROSPECTS.

Do you think their teams regret the picks?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ramifications

Guest
ARI needed a LT more than a RB.

They passed on one of the greatest RB PROSPECTS ever, a transcendent talent, who is now a certain Hall of Famer, for Levi's Brown, who became a mediocre LT.

That was a catastrophic mistake, which happens when you make positional reaches with this year in mind.
 

Ramifications

Guest
no I don't, do you think Fisher wants a player at #2 he can use 2 or 3 years down the road, or one that will help the team now? and who is to say Clowney will be superior? wont know the answer to that till he actually plays in the NFL. we disagree, neither of us is going to change the others mind, and neither of us can state that we are right and that's that. like I said, the Rams wont be calling either of us asking for advice so really uor opinions mean nothing.

Aldon Smith was a rotational pass rusher his first year, started his second. He broke Reggie White's record for most sacks in his first two seasons. Was that a bad pick? Who is to say any pick will be superior. Unless you intend to throw out all the scouts grades, and buy a monkey and a dart board (you could only put up positional targets you like), you are going to rely on some form of scouting evaluation. Why are we discussing Watkins and Robinson in other threads, because of scouting evaluations and grades, if you want to throw away Clowney's, you should throw away all of them.

Were you saying how do we know they are superior with Calvin Johnson and Andrew Luck, that would be consistent if you were, but deeply mistaken.
 

Ramifications

Guest
I'm forgetting nothing, maybe you are forgetting the guy who drafted him got fired.If you are going to take your view then the owner should do the drafting,not a guy who won't be there in 5-10 years because he drafted FOR 5-10 years.

What MUST be said is "potential is the coach killer" what is more stability in coaching is vastly undervalued by draft "guhrus" who insist upon your view.
Instant gratification is not a luxury for coaches it's a life and death issue.

Your theory doesn't account for the reality of the environment.

Clowney could help immediately, like Aldon Smith did.

He is more advanced as a prospect at a comparable stage of development. It might be oversimplifying things out of myriad variables to single out the Quinn pick. You don't really think that was a major reason why Spags and Devaney were fired? We had the discussion about how injury riddled that season was (most injured offense of the decade). Not that there is a mono-reason, but that was one of the biggest.

Unless you aren't ecstatic we got Quinn (aren't you glad we got him, who else would you rather have had?), not sure what point you are trying to make.

It is unlikely any single pick (whether we get Clowney, Robinson or Watkins) will be the difference between Fisher remaining the HC or being fired. For one thing, Fisher and Snead have been far more competent than his predecessors, we should credit Kroenke with being able to recognize this.