Once-in-a-lifetime prospect? Scouts break down Clowney

[Ramifications]

Tom Brady? 6th round?

Yeah, but with Johnson and Luck, you know what you are getting. How many sixth rounders that sucked to get a Brady. Hundreds?

Warner was a FA. Should we give up all our picks since we can get Hall of Famers with a UFA pick. Priest Holmes was a UFA. So was London Fletcher, let's cut Laurinaitis and save money since we can get great UFA LBs. We should build our draft philosophy around that strategy.

 

[Ramifications]

true but I don't see the need to keep going over the same things over and over and over, I respect everyone on this sites opinions, might not agree with them, but respect them all the same.

Hopefully others wouldn't cut the larger conversation short because of what one person thinks. I've learned a few things from the thread.

Respectfully, why not follow your own advice? If you find it redundant, stop posting. Post after post after post saying why are we posting? IS REDUNDANT, but it is your posts that are contributing to that.

 

[LosAngelesRams]

Yeah, but with Johnson and Luck, you know what you are getting. How many sixth rounders that sucked to get a Brady. Hundreds?

Warner was a FA. Should we give up all our picks since we can get Hall of Famers with a UFA pick. Priest Holmes was a UFA. So was London Fletcher, let's cut Laurinaitis and save money since we can get great UFA LBs. We should build our draft philosophy around that strategy.

OK so what about Tony Mandarich? did you not see my other comment? the point i'm trying to get across is no one is a guarantee, no one.

 

[Ramifications]

Do you think Green bay regrets drafting Tony Mandarich?

he was called "the best offensive line prospect ever"

I didn't scout him, I did Johnson and Luck.

That is a good debate tactic to answer a question with a question.

Sometimes people forget the earlier question.

So back to that, did DET and IND regret the picks?

Is your point we should assume all such proclamations will end as badly as Mandarich? How would that have worked out for DET and IND.

 

[LosAngelesRams]

I didn't scout him, I did Johnson and Luck.

That is a good debate tactic to answer a question with a question.

Sometimes people forget the earlier question.

So back to that, did DET and IND regret the picks?

Is your point we should assume all such proclamations will end as badly as Mandarich? How would that have worked out for DET and IND.

no the point is your naming 2 prospects that ended up living up to expectations and your not even attempting to bring up the busts.

 

[Zaphod]

Also Wells and Dahl, we don't know EVERYBODY is gone, doubt Fisher, a HC known to prefer vet OL, is going to gut the interior coming into and important season in the rebuild cycle. We still have the 1.13. It is possible no DBs have been taken at that point (safety or CB), I wouldn't worry about the exponential part. Good interior OL will be avail on day two of the draft.

A key concept is the draft isn't for one season, a player could be around for two contracts and close to a decade. IF, hypothetically, Clowney is as good as advertised, bummer if we made a short term move to cover Jake Long and he returns week two.

It's not entirely short term thinking either. You could easily say that drafting Matthews is a long term move that gives them depth at tackle, which is one of the things that's honestly plagued this team for some time.

 

[Ramifications]

If Jerry is right and you can't assume that anyone you draft will be a quality day 1 starter, I'm sure he'd also argue that the longer you wait to take a player at a particular position the less chance that player has of being a quality day 1 starter.

You are missing the point of some positions being more valuable than others. Teams don't take FBs #1 overall for a reason.

Generally, good guards and safeties are not as valuable as elite DEs.

It isn't even like there is a great guard like Cooper or Warmack in the class, or an outstanding safety class like last year, let alone once-in-a-decade prospects.

The key to the draft is to get the right player and position at the right place at the right time.

Our chance of getting a great FB is reduced by not burning a 1.2 on one! :^)

 

[Ramifications]

no the point is your naming 2 prospects that ended up living up to expectations and your not even attempting to bring up the busts.

I brought them up because they were the most recent examples of prospects called by scouts historically good at their respective positions that I could think of.

Unless you can think of better, recent and contemporary examples, you are evading the question or premise.

* I'd also add Suh, who admittedly hasn't been as successful, I wouldn't call him a bust.

 

[tonyl711]

Hopefully others wouldn't cut the larger conversation short because of what one person thinks. I've learned a few things from the thread.

Respectfully, why not follow your own advice? If you find it redundant, stop posting. Post after post after post saying why are we posting? IS REDUNDANT, but it is your posts that are contributing to that.

why dont you get off my back? if im tired of saying the same thing over and over that's how I feel, quit trying to pick a fight.

 

[jrry32]

I'm forgetting nothing, maybe you are forgetting the guy who drafted him got fired.If you are going to take your view then the owner should do the drafting,not a guy who won't be there in 5-10 years because he drafted FOR 5-10 years.

What MUST be said is "potential is the coach killer" what is more stability in coaching is vastly undervalued by draft "guhrus" who insist upon your view.
Instant gratification is not a luxury for coaches it's a life and death issue.

Your theory doesn't account for the reality of the environment.

Yea, it does. It absolutely does. The guy that drafted him wasn't fired because he drafted for 5-10 years. That's revisionist history. He was fired because he drafted a bust at #2(Smith), he drafted terribly once you got past the 2nd round and his coaching hire was a flop.

Potential isn't the coach killer. Bad picks are.

My theory does account for reality because there are many many many many examples out there of draft picks and GMs that go for the best talent and are quite successful doing it.

If you draft for now, you deserve what you'll get and that's usually not good things. Go ask the Cardinals about that.

 

[LosAngelesRams]

I brought them up because they were the most recent examples of prospects called by scouts historically good at their respective positions.

Unless you can think of better, recent and contemporary examples, you are evading the question.

The question you asked is stupid and obvious, which is why I countered you with a stupid obvious question.

So we should just draft who ever X person/media outlet says is the "best player in draft"

 

[tonyl711]

I didn't scout him, I did Johnson and Luck.

That is a good debate tactic to answer a question with a question.

Sometimes people forget the earlier question.

So back to that, did DET and IND regret the picks?

Is your point we should assume all such proclamations will end as badly as Mandarich? How would that have worked out for DET and IND.

lol, so only the players you scouted count? yeah ok.

 

[Ramifications]

why dont you get off my back? if im tired of saying the same thing over and over that's how I feel, quit trying to pick a fight.

The thread had sprawled a few pages past where I had left it last night and I hadn't caught up to the end when I responded to a few posts as I saw them. You are posting a lot in the thread, so I responded more to you than if you had posted once. I think you are more mistaken than some other posters, which is why I devoted more posts to yours, perhaps. If I agreed with them, this may not have been the case. When I wrote the initial responses, I don't think I had seen this one yet.

When you disagree saying the same thing over and over and over, you aren't picking a fight, only the other people, is that the gist. if you are tired of repeating yourself, look in the mirror instead of blaming.

 

[Ramifications]

In an obvious passing situation, sure you could probably move Long inside to compliment Brockers.

But against our division? What do you do, move Long back to end and play Clowney as an OLB? Of course starting out at the least you'd probably trust Quinn against the run more so would they switch sides if they were both playing DE?

Even if he did have the ability play OLB in two TE run formations, and I am salivating at the possibilities for stunts, would you really trust a rookie to pull all of that off?

So basically I'm just agreeing with you, if they took Clowney it would be with an eye toward the future. And while you'd certainly get to see him the first year, it would probably be more in 3rd down situations.

Which worked out pretty good with Aldon Smith.

 

[mr.stlouis]

So we're drafting Clowney? I'm certainly am not opposed if he's that dang good. Not to mention he's got Quinn and Long to mentor him. That would make the RGME trade completely lopsided.

 

[tonyl711]

The thread had sprawled a few pages past where I had left it last night and I hadn't caught up to the end when I responded to a few posts as I saw them. You are posting a lot in the thread, so I responded more to you than if you had posted once. I think you are more mistaken than some other posters, which is why I devoted more posts to yours, perhaps. If I agreed with them, this may not have been the case. When I wrote the initial responses, I don't think I had seen this one yet.

When you disagree saying the same thing over and over and over, you aren't picking a fight, only the other people, is that the gist. if you are tired of repeating yourself, look in the mirror instead of blaming.

or better yet, read my post where I say its getting us nowhere so I don't see the point, you look in the mirror and ask yourself why you think you can force someone to think like you do, and why when they explain why they are done talking about it you think you have the right to tell them they are wrong for not wanting to say the same things 100 fucking times.

 

[Ramifications]

I tried to make it as simple as I could man.
You defined the coaches draft ethos as "scared" and fired him in the same sentence,pretty shoot from the hip single factor undervaluing of stability in the position,what other single factor do you want to fire a coach over?

It's just not reality that you give a guy a contract that doesn't include the results of his actions.Coaches get 4 year contracts in the NFL and have to win by the third year, but you and jrry want him to plan for 5-10,good luck with that.

Clowney is so far off our list of needs and some of our needs are so compelling,I consider advocating that we draft him unrealistic and those who advocate it slaves to their dogma.

I haven't heard anybody say Clowney will take a half decade to decade to pay off, that is a caricature, and not a very good one of what has been said. Need based drafting led to Levi Brown over Adrian Peterson. Need is a dogma, too, you do realize that, right... just not a very good one.

 

[jrry32]

Tony, it's just a debate, man. Let it go. I think we're all good with agreeing to disagree. Some of us just wanted to continue the discussion. If you don't want to, you don't have to. If you do want to, no reason to get so heated. We're all friends here(or at least we pretend to be...that X guy cannot be trusted).

 

[Ramifications]

or better yet, read my post where I say its getting us nowhere so I don't see the point, you look in the mirror and ask yourself why you think you can force someone to think like you do, and why when they explain why they are done talking about it you think you have the right to tell them they are wrong for not wanting to say the same things 100 fucking times.

Like I said, I responded to several of earlier posts before reading every single one of them, you have a shitload of posts in here, many saying why do we post over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over... we get it, you aren't having fun.

You aren't saying the same thing, you made a crack about Tony Mandarich, but I have to let it go because you are so sensitive about others being critical of your posts, though not above laughing at others.

This isn't some kind of life or death military tribunal, relax.

 

[Ramifications]

Most likely Jrry 32 you may do not know that you & I have been in full agreement dL'er Jadeveon Clowney as our 1.2 selection. I also agree that Snead may be able to regroup on the OL with draft picks 1.13, 2.44, 3.75 & 4.#103. It would make Snead work extrahard to find a self ready OT/OG but possible the best prospect IMO would be Zack Martin @ 1.13 or maybe Taylor Lewan. Both have never played OG. I not all that please with Lewan & his past body of work. They could perform a reach for OLT Cyrus Koundjio or Morgan Moses NOT a good thing. Looks he would be forced to select Martin cuz Lewan would not be able to start @ an OG post early in the season.

This jrry32 off the hip mock 2014 OL is not probable its more like highly unlikely 2014 Ram OL. The 2014 OL as it is today is a great example of TURNSTILE OL!
*David Yankey is the top rated OG by most mock drafts if not the first OG off the boards he will certainly be the second. That 2nd rounder @ #44 where you claim Yankey will be there?? very wishful thinking jrry not your normal way of operation both Yankey & Xavier Su Filo will be gone. I am hoping DB Joyner will be the pick.

*Jake Long is not even began his long draw out rehabbing effect on a reconstructed right knee & we are drinking all the Ram Org. PC koolaid that Long's right knee will be as good as before without any setbacks, plus he will jump off the training table & start the first regular season game with little or none prep time. Yep I sure all our 2014 RDE's are shaking in their Nike's right now in fear.

*Rodger Saffold returning to StLouis? the same team who has had to deal with Saffold's history? This same team that has had to move OL'ers around & sign several high priced UFA OL'ers just to play & start @ Saffold's OLT post.... that Saffold resulted from his very short list of injuries..... (See below the short list of his few injuries & try to find a real reason why the Rams org. will overpay for many yrs to come in cap funds for more of that injury drama.) Add to that you may want to throw in that Snead has current injury concerns & worry with other 3 other high $$ cost UFA' OL'ers. Saffold is certainly no turnstile but the Ol'ers that have to replace him would be !

2010 rookie season missed parts of two games
9/17/10-Back Injury missed many practices
11/14/10-Ankle Sprain missed rest of game
11/21/10-Shoulder Bruise missed rest of game

2011 second year missed 7 full games & parts of two other total 9 games
10/16/11-Ankle Sprain missed rest of game
11/13/11-#1 Head Concussion missed rest of game
11/18/11-Pectorial tears missed rest of the 2011 season

2012 third season missed 6 full games & parts of 2 other total 8 games
9/9/12-#2 Head Concussion/Neck Sprain first preseason game missed the next two games
9-16-12-Knee grade 3 sprain to MCL missed 6 games
12-10-12-Back Injury missed rest of game.

2013 4th season Saffold only finished 8 games that he started.
8/8/13- Shoulder Dislocation 1st preseason game missed rest of preseason.
9/15/13- Beginning of the 2nd quarter of the 2nd game injured Knee Sprain to MCL lost his starting post @ ORT to Barksdale when Saffold walked on the field 5 weeks later Saffold was a reserve OL'er & rotated in on some of 3 games series. When Dahl was injured reserve Saffold filled in & started 7 games for Harvey Dahl until Saffold was injured with his 3rd Head Concussion in the last game.

Looks to me the 3rd & 4th round picks would have to be Ol'ers targeted like Gabe Jackson, Joel Bitonio or with the 3rd pick & then follow up in the 4th @103 looking for Brandon Thomas, Billy Turner, James Hurst or Jawuan James in the 4th, to build up that OL with so many missing pieces.

I don't think Fisher, who prefers vet OL, will want to roll without Saffold, Wells and Dahl. Guards can be gotten later.

If Clowney could have been been an elite talent for us for a decade, and Long does make a full recovery, why predicate such a fateful, momentous decision because we might need to cover Long for a few games?