OFFICIAL Rams Free Agency Discussion Thread

[StealYoGurley]

What are you missing? Yes, he has a terrible injury history. But he's also an All Pro caliber Center who can play any position on the OL at a starting caliber level. He could be a serviceable starting LT or RT. He could be a Pro Bowl caliber OG (in a ZBS). And he can be an All Pro caliber Center. He's a technically sound OL with great movement skills, body control, and a very high football IQ (kid went to Cornell). He has average strength/power. But the rest of the skill-set is there.

All pro caliber? He is solid, but I certainly wouldn't go that far at center or a guard. I dont see him as top 4 player in the NFL at any spot on the interior no matter what the scheme is. IMO not on the same level as Travis Fredrick, Alex Mack, Kelechi Osemele, David DeCastro, Zach Martin, or Marshall Yanda even if he is playing in a ZBS.

 

[jrry32]

All pro caliber? He is solid, but I certainly wouldn't go that far at center or a guard. I dont see him as top 4 player in the NFL at any spot on the interior no matter what the scheme is. IMO not on the same level as Travis Fredrick, Alex Mack, Kelechi Osemele, David DeCastro, Zach Martin, or Marshall Yanda even if he is playing in a ZBS.

Yes, All Pro caliber. He was playing as well as any of the Centers you named this year.

 

[StealYoGurley]

Yes, All Pro caliber. He was playing as well as any of the Centers you named this year.

I think you would be hard pressed to find any credible personnel person to say he is in the same league as either of those guys let alone say he is top 5 center in the entire league. Fredrick is the best center in the league and Mack has been one of the best for years and had a transformative effect on a subpar Falcons line.

 

[Riverumbbq]

I think you would be hard pressed to find any credible personnel person to say he is in the same league as either of those guys let alone say he is top 5 center in the entire league. Fredrick is the best center in the league and Mack has been one of the best for years and had a transformative effect on a subpar Falcons line.

How about top 9 ? At least that's where PFF graded him last season. Keep in mind, the word 'caliber' is based more on his youth & relatively few starts, not being a proven vet with years of starting experience. He only has 10 starts because of some freaky injury accidents, not some chronic condition, although when he has played, he's played very well. If some team offers him crazy money on a long term contract, he's likely long gone, but for teams seeking a reasonable upgrade with a questionable guy health wise and a 'show me' type contract, we probably have as good a chance as anyone. jmo.

 

[StealYoGurley]

How about top 9 ? At least that's where PFF graded him last season. Keep in mind, the word 'caliber' is based more on his youth & relatively few starts, not being a proven vet with years of starting experience. He only has 10 starts because of some freaky injury accidents, not some chronic condition, although when he has played, he's played very well. If some team offers him crazy money on a long term contract, he's likely long gone, but for teams seeking a reasonable upgrade with a questionable guy health wise and a 'show me' type contract, we probably have as good a chance as anyone. jmo.

I am not saying he is not a solid player, but there are only 2 all pro center spots and he is not on the level of the guys in those spots who are 2 of the best lineman in the league let alone at the center position. IMO an all pro has to be at least in the conversation for best player at his position, and IMO he is not. Hell you could argue he was not even the best center on his own team. I wouldn't mind signing him at a cheaper level, I'm just saying he is not an all pro.

 

[Riverumbbq]

I am not saying he is not a solid player, but there are only 2 all pro center spots and he is not on the level of the guys in those spots who are 2 of the best lineman in the league let alone at the center position. IMO an all pro has to be at least in the conversation for best player at his position, and IMO he is not. Hell you could argue he was not even the best center on his own team. I wouldn't mind signing him at a cheaper level, I'm just saying he is not an all pro.

No, he is not an all pro, he just hasn't had the playing time yet to prove that, but he has shown the potential to possibly reach such an outcome in time if he can stay on the field. jmo.

 

[jrry32]

I think you would be hard pressed to find any credible personnel person to say he is in the same league as either of those guys let alone say he is top 5 center in the entire league. Fredrick is the best center in the league and Mack has been one of the best for years and had a transformative effect on a subpar Falcons line.

Feel free to call upon all of the credible personnel people you know to come in here and discuss it with us.

Tretter has the feet, footwork, agility, hand use, base, and strength to play LEFT TACKLE at a serviceable level. That speaks to the quality of his physical and technical skills. Nobody doubts his mental acuity. He's an All Pro caliber Center in a ZBS. If he stays healthy, that will become very obvious.

 

[StealYoGurley]

Feel free to call upon all of the credible personnel people you know to come in here and discuss it with us.

Tretter has the feet, footwork, agility, hand use, base, and strength to play LEFT TACKLE at a serviceable level. That speaks to the quality of his physical and technical skills. Nobody doubts his mental acuity. He's an All Pro caliber Center in a ZBS. If he stays healthy, that will become very obvious.

If I could I would, but I don't need one to tell me he isn't on the same level as this years all pros Alex Mack and Travis Fredrick. IMO it is far from a hot take to say that Tretter is not as a good as a guy who has been an All pro 3 out of his first 4 years or another who is 5 time all pro. Tretter doesn't even have a full season of starts under his belt in 4 years and you are comparing him two of the best lineman in the league regardless of position. Furthermore, he is not even as good as Rodney Hudson, Ryan Kalil, or the Pouncey Brothers. There are only 2 all pro spots and all those guys enter the conversation before he even enters the conversation. I have no issue with saying he is a solid player with potential for more, but he is not better than some of the best in this league when its not a given he is even the best center on his own team. Roger Saffold has the traits and ability to be a serviceable LT, but that doesn't make him an all pro guard.

 

[jrry32]

If I could I would, but I don't need one to tell me he isn't on the same level as this years all pros Alex Mack and Travis Fredrick.

Then there's no need to appeal to authority (especially when you can't actually provide evidence of their opinions).

IMO it is far from a hot take to say that Tretter is not as a good as a guy who has been an All pro 3 out of his first 4 years or another who is 5 time all pro. Tretter doesn't even have a full season of starts under his belt in 4 years and you are comparing him two of the best lineman in the league regardless of position. Furthermore, he is not even as good as Rodney Hudson, Ryan Kalil, or the Pouncey Brothers. There are only 2 all pro spots and all those guys enter the conversation before he even enters the conversation. I have no issue with saying he is a solid player with potential for more, but he is not better than some of the best in this league when its not a given he is even the best center on his own team.

Now you're conflating ability with how proven a guy is. Tretter can be an All Pro caliber player without being more proven than Rodney Hudson. OBJ was an All Pro caliber player when he was setting the league on fire as a rookie, but he wasn't more proven than Julio, Antonio Brown, etc.

You're also conflating being capable of making an All Pro team with being the best Center in the NFL. Players have up and down years during their career. Saying that Tretter is All Pro caliber is saying that he has the ability to play at a high enough level to merit making the team during his career. It doesn't mean he's definitively better than every other Center in the NFL. If I wanted to say that, I'd say he's the best Center in the NFL. As I said earlier, he was playing as well as any Center in the league this year and has the tools to stay in that top group of Centers.

Roger Saffold has the traits and ability to be a serviceable LT, but that doesn't make him an all pro guard.

Rodger Saffold is an interesting example. He actually arguably played at an All Pro level during his first year at OG (when we moved him to OG midway through the season). It's why we signed him to such a massive contract after Oakland nearly did the same. Saffold's problem was that he couldn't stay healthy, injuries sapped his effectiveness, and our poor coaching on offense did not allow him to fulfill his potential.

So yea, in an alternate reality, Saffold might have been an All Pro OG.

But Guard and Center are very different positions. You have to have strength and power at OG that aren't as necessary at Center. So having the movement skills of a LT doesn't carry the same guarantees at OG. It also doesn't carry guarantees at Center if the OL lacks the mental acuity, but that's not an issue for Tretter.

 

[StealYoGurley]

Now you're conflating ability with how proven a guy is. Tretter can be an All Pro caliber player without being more proven than Rodney Hudson. OBJ was an All Pro caliber player when he was setting the league on fire as a rookie, but he wasn't more proven than Julio, Antonio Brown, etc.

You're also conflating being capable of making an All Pro team with being the best Center in the NFL. Players have up and down years during their career. Saying that Tretter is All Pro caliber is saying that he has the ability to play at a high enough level to merit making the team during his career. It doesn't mean he's definitively better than every other Center in the NFL. If I wanted to say that, I'd say he's the best Center in the NFL. As I said earlier, he was playing as well as any Center in the league this year and has the tools to stay in that top group of Centers.

Exactly OBJ was setting the league on fire. I believe OBJ was hurt early in rookie season missed a ton of time and still lit it up because he was that talented. It was and is evident to everyone that OBJ is all pro caliber and he an even got an all pro vote his rookie year. OBJ is just as talented as Julio Jones. JC Tretter is not setting anything on fire and he is not as talented as Travis Frederick.

That high enough level he has to play on to merit an all pro selection is an Travis Fredrick, Alex Mack, Ryan Kalil type level. They are all pros because they change the whole complexion of the O line and they are the premiere players at their position. Im not conflating anything, to be an all All pro you have to be one of the two best centers that year, to be all pro calibre you have to be close play level wise to be in the conversation. Tretter does not have the game changing ability those guys have up front in addition to being unproven. To be an All pro he has has to be a top 2 center better than 30 other centers in the league that given year and I don't see it when he isn't even better than the other center on his roster. All pros are the best of the best and 10 guys cant be all pro caliber. I agreed with you saying he could be good, but he isn't among the group that is the best of best at his position.

I also disagree with you saying he was playing just as well as Travis Fredrick or Alex Mack. Alex Mack uplifted a mediocre line to one of the best playing between a washed up Chris Chester and mediocre Andy Levitre. Travis Fredrick was simply dominant. Tretter was not playing as well as those guys were.

 

[jrry32]

Exactly OBJ was setting the league on fire. I believe OBJ was hurt early in rookie season missed a ton of time and still lit it up because he was that talented. It was and is evident to everyone that OBJ is all pro caliber and he an even got an all pro vote his rookie year. OBJ is just as talented as Julio Jones. JC Tretter is not setting anything on fire and he is not as talented as Travis Frederick.

How would you know? J.C. Tretter doesn't have stats like catches, receiving yards, and TDs to tell you whether he set things on fire or not.

As for whether Tretter is as talented as Frederick or not...
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=105727&draftyear=2013&genpos=OG
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=90293&draftyear=2013&genpos=C

Frederick is stronger, but I've watched Tretter play. He's not lacking physically, mentally, or technically. In the right scheme, he has a ton of potential.

That high enough level he has to play on to merit an all pro selection is an Travis Fredrick, Alex Mack, Ryan Kalil type level. They are all pros because they change the whole complexion of the O line and they are the premiere players at their position. Im not conflating anything, to be an all All pro you have to be one of the two best centers that year, to be all pro calibre you have to be close play level wise to be in the conversation. Tretter does not have the game changing ability those guys have up front in addition to being unproven. To be an All pro he has has to be a top 2 center better than 30 other centers in the league that given year and I don't see it when he isn't even better than the other center on his roster. All pros are the best of the best and 10 guys cant be all pro caliber. I agreed with you saying he could be good, but he isn't among the group that is the best of best at his position.

Centers named to the All Pro team over the past 5 years:
Travis Frederick (x3)
Alex Mack (x2)
Ryan Kalil (x2)
Maurkice Pouncey (x2)
Max Unger

Basically, you have to be a top 5 Center. I think Tretter is capable of that, especially when you acknowledge the fact that Mack and Kalil are getting old.

Tretter does have game-changing ability at Center. He's an impact run blocker, especially on the move and in space. He's an athletic and adept pass protector. And he's a highly intelligent player who communicates well. He has sky-high potential if he ever stays healthy.

I also disagree with you saying he was playing just as well as Travis Fredrick or Alex Mack. Alex Mack uplifted a mediocre line to one of the best playing between a washed up Chris Chester and mediocre Andy Levitre. Travis Fredrick was simply dominant. Tretter was not playing as well as those guys were.

Frederick plays on arguably the most talented OL in the NFL. And Alex Mack didn't lift that OL up on his own. They have one of the NFL's best RTs, Ryan Schraeder. They have former top 6 pick, Jake Matthews, at LT. They have Andy Levitre who is one of the highest paid OGs in the NFL. Before the Titans put him in a scheme he didn't fit, Levitre was considered one of the top 5-10 OGs in the NFL. There's also the fact that they have a good OL Coach and Kyle Shanahan (let's be real, the Shanahans are known for getting the most out of their OLs).

So let's not pretend like Mack was dealing with crap around him. There were many who felt that Mack might be done after his average year in Cleveland in 2015.

 

[StealYoGurley]

As for whether Tretter is as talented as Frederick or not...
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=105727&draftyear=2013&genpos=OG
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=90293&draftyear=2013&genpos=C

Frederick is stronger, but I've watched Tretter play. He's not lacking physically, mentally, or technically. In the right scheme, he has a ton of potential.

I dont get your point here. Those links say Tretter was a 6th round talent whereas Fredrick is a 2nd round talent. So no, he is not as talented.

Basically, you have to be a top 5 Center. I think Tretter is capable of that, especially when you acknowledge the fact that Mack and Kalil are getting old.

Tretter isn't a top 5 center based on talent alone since you don't want to factor in he only has 10 games of starting experience. Kalil and Mack are getting older, but lineman tend to have a longer shelf life and they will still be playing at a high level for a few more years. Furthermore there are a ton a good young centers behind the established guys who have played at a high level or shown alot of potential for more than 10 games.

1. Travis Fredrick
2. Alex Mack
3. Maurkice Pouncey
4. Ryan Kalil
5. Rodney Hudson
6. Weston Richburg
7. Mike Pouncey
8. Max Unger
9. Ryan Kelly
10. Cody Whitehair

Order of my top 10 not important, but all these guys were drafted in the top 2 rounds and have played at a high level and to this point have lived up to their draft billing. My point is talent or production wise he isn't cracking the top 10 let alone top 5 in NFL centers.

 

[Snaz]

I would prefer to first go after Andrew Whitworth or Riley Reiff @ LT but that will be very hard to accomplish. .

We all need to rule Whitworth as non option, he's either going to resign or go to a potential superbowl team. That excludes the Rams.

 

[jrry32]

I dont get your point here. Those links say Tretter was a 6th round talent whereas Fredrick is a 2nd round talent. So no, he is not as talented.

Really? You don't get my point. You don't see the Combine numbers sitting right in front of you? You managed to see the PROJECTED round where they'd be drafted (has nothing to do with talent), but you missed the Combine numbers...

Come on, man. We both know that you got my point. Tretter's physical talent is on par with arguably the best Center in the NFL.

Tretter isn't a top 5 center based on talent alone since you don't want to factor in he only has 10 games of starting experience. Kalil and Mack are getting older, but lineman tend to have a longer shelf life and they will still be playing at a high level for a few more years. Furthermore there are a ton a good young centers behind the established guys who have played at a high level or shown alot of potential for more than 10 games.

Starting experience has nothing to do with talent.

1. Travis Fredrick
2. Alex Mack
3. Maurkice Pouncey
4. Ryan Kalil
5. Rodney Hudson
6. Weston Richburg
7. Mike Pouncey
8. Max Unger
9. Ryan Kelly
10. Cody Whitehair

Order of my top 10 not important, but all these guys were drafted in the top 2 rounds and have played at a high level and to this point have lived up to their draft billing. My point is talent or production wise he isn't cracking the top 10 let alone top 5 in NFL centers.

My point is that I've watched his game closely, and I think you're wrong. How many games of Tretter's have you evaluated?

I fully accept the possibility that my opinion could be wrong, but I am stating an opinion that I put work into developing. That's very different than someone stating the general perception. Are you stating an opinion that you've developed via time spent watching film, or are you stating the general perception?

 

[StealYoGurley]

Really? You don't get my point. You don't see the Combine numbers sitting right in front of you? You managed to see the PROJECTED round where they'd be drafted (has nothing to do with talent), but you missed the Combine numbers...

Come on, man. We both know that you got my point. Tretter's physical talent is on par with arguably the best Center in the NFL.

No I didn't get your point, because Fredricks combine numbers are not good at all and Tretter's combine numbers are far superior, but that doesn't make him a better or comparable player. Draft Knicks and Decision makers clearly factor in more than combine numbers and that was reflected in that cites projection and the actual spot those players were drafted. How does projected round have nothing to do with talent? There is a reason Fredrick was projected to go in a higher round. I am not saying these guys are always accurate, but this cite projected a 4 round talent gap, which ended up being a 3 round talent gap in actuality. Its not like evaluators look at combine number as the end all be all.

My point is that I've watched his game closely, and I think you're wrong. How many games of Tretter's have you evaluated?

I fully accept the possibility that my opinion could be wrong, but I am stating an opinion that I put work into developing. That's very different than someone stating the general perception. Are you stating an opinion that you've developed via time spent watching film, or are you stating the general perception?

Yes Ive watched Tretter (not alot to watch) with my game-pass subscription along with several other NFL centers available in 2017 FA and I have read your breakdowns on him. That being said I am certainly not putting him in the top 10 centers considering the talent at the position in the NFL right now when half of the league is starting a 1st or second rounder at center when center is not a premiere position. IMO his talent level isn't so overwhelming that it is clear he is an all pro talent from such a limited sample size. IMO He absolutely does not belong in the top 5 guys I named on the basis of talent or production. Even the two rookies on the bottom of my list have shown just as much if not more and they have a bigger sample size even though they have played 3 fewer seasons.

 

[TheDYVKX]

I don't give a flying fuck if Tretter is the 3rd best or 10th best center in the league or wherever else you have him ranked. He's good and he's a major upgrade. I want him, and if he never gets an All-Pro or Pro Bowl but he's the glue that holds our line together, I'm perfectly okay with that.

 

[jrry32]

No I didn't get your point, because Fredricks combine numbers are not good at all and Tretter's combine numbers are far superior, but that doesn't make him a better or comparable player. Draft Knicks and Decision makers clearly factor in more than combine numbers and that was reflected in that cites projection and the actual spot those players were drafted. How does projected round have nothing to do with talent? There is a reason Fredrick was projected to go in a higher round. I am not saying these guys are always accurate, but this cite projected a 4 round talent gap, which ended up being a 3 round talent gap in actuality. Its not like evaluators look at combine number as the end all be all.

Tretter's combine numbers reflect his unique athleticism.

How does projected round have nothing to do with talent when comparing two NFL veterans? I'll demonstrate:
Tom Brady vs. Jake Locker
Russell Wilson vs. Blaine Gabbert
Jason Peters vs. Jason Smith
Carl Nicks vs. Danny Watkins

I can go on. J.C. Tretter played at Cornell. He played TE his first two years before converting to LT. Travis Fredrick started as a true freshman on Wisconsin's OL and then started as both a sophomore and a junior. It's easy to understand why he'd be projected higher than a small school kid like Tretter. He was a better prospect. That's not because he was infinitely more talented. It's because he had more experience at the position he'd play in the NFL, he had better coaching, and he was more developed physically (due to better resources).

Yes Ive watched Tretter (not alot to watch) with my game-pass subscription along with several other NFL centers available in 2017 FA and I have read your breakdowns on him. That being said I am certainly not putting him in the top 10 centers considering the talent at the position in the NFL right now when half of the league is starting a 1st or second rounder at center when center is not a premiere position. IMO his talent level isn't so overwhelming that it is clear he is an all pro talent from such a limited sample size. IMO He absolutely does not belong in the top 5 guys I named on the basis of talent or production. Even the two rookies on the bottom of my list have shown just as much if not more and they have a bigger sample size even though they have played 3 fewer seasons.

The bold indicates to me that it has become a premier position.

I think his talent level is spectacular enough to merit saying he is of that caliber.

Anyways, I'll just agree to disagree.

 

[ninedeuce]

Russell Okung is now available.

NBC Sports - ProFootballTalk: Okung’s folly: One year, $8 million, back on the market
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/02/23/okungs-folly-one-year-5-million-back-on-the-market/

 

[manmaderam]

The Bucs are cutting Alterraun Verner, might be a decent pickup for a prove it contract since the Bucs dumped him.

I know he was a hot commodity a few years back....I personally would like him

 

[RamsFlash80]

The Bucs are cutting Alterraun Verner, might be a decent pickup for a prove it contract since the Bucs dumped him.

I know he was a hot commodity a few years back....I personally would like him

I loved Verner at UCLA. He was really good with the Titans and then kinda bombed with the Bucs for some reason. Rams should definitely take a look cause hes still only 28 yrs old and should be cheap like you said (prove it deal). He was a hell of a CB at UCLA.