Mike Mayock sees shades of Torry Holt in Amari Cooper/Wags

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RamBill

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Mike Mayock sees shades of Torry Holt in Amari Cooper
By Nick Wagoner

http://espn.go.com/blog/st-louis-ra...ock-sees-shades-of-torry-holt-in-amari-cooper

EARTH CITY, Mo. -- During his annual pre-scouting combine teleconference with reporters all over the country, NFL Network draft analyst Mike Mayock completed a marathon of questions about various players and team needs.

Asked a question about which direction the Oakland Raiders should look with the No. 4 pick, Mayock made a reference to the St. Louis Rams in discussing the need for the Raiders to add at the wide receiver position.

Specifically, Mayock sees a lot of Rams legend Torry Holt in Alabama wideout Amari Cooper.

"I think Cooper from Alabama has got the highest score," Mayock said. "In other words, I think he's the safest pick of that group. Really good route runner, had over 100 catches last year, reminds me of some of those wide outs that played on the Greatest Show on Turf with Dick Vermeil in St. Louis, Torry Holt, for example, that type of wide receiver, whereas the other two, Kevin White and Devante Parker, are bigger bodied guys where you can throw it up and they can win jump balls. I would imagine that one of those three guys are going to be their pick, and I think any one of the three could be highly productive."

In many ways, the comparison between Cooper and Holt is easy to see. Cooper is listed at 6-foot-1, 203 pounds. Holt was listed at 6 feet, 200 pounds. Last spring, Cooper purportedly ran multiple 40-yard dash times just a shade under 4.4 seconds (unofficially). Holt clocked his 40-yard dash at 4.38 seconds.

Of course, Cooper has a lot of proving to do in the NFL to live up to the lofty standards Holt set in his time with the Rams. Holt was a seven-time Pro Bowl selection, was first team All Pro in 2003 and second team in 2006. For his career, Holt finished with 920 catches for 13,382 yards and 74 touchdowns. He also holds the NFL records for most consecutive seasons with 90 catches and 1,300 receiving yards, marks he hit six straight times in the early 2000s. He's one of only three receivers, along with Marvin Harrison and Calvin Johnson to have two or more seasons with 1,600 receiving yards. He also holds the NFL record for most receiving yards in a decade, posting 12,594 from 2000 to 2009. His career average of 77.4 receiving yards per game is sixth all-time but No. 1 amongst players who aren't still active.

Considering the Rams haven't had a 1,000-yard receiver (or even one to exceed Kenny Britt's 748 this year) since Holt in 2008, it's understandable if some would like to see them use the No. 10 overall pick on a player like Cooper. It's unlikely the Rams will target another receiver, however, especially if they re-sign Britt, because they have more pressing needs.

Cooper would have to be a tempting option if he did somehow manage to slip to No. 10 and appealing offensive line and quarterback options are off the board. But if Cooper really does compare favorably to Holt in the eyes of NFL teams, it's unlikely that option will materialize.
 

tahoe

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If Cooper is still there at 10 the rams should run to the podium
 

Mackeyser

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I totally disagree.

He's a basket catcher. Looks like Willie Mays out there. Contrast him with Kevin White who's hand catching reminds me of Irvin...so strong.

Granted, he controls the ball with his hands INTO his body, but he still puts the ball on his body and that's just BAD for what the Rams are going to be doing because it gives the DB more opportunity to make a play on the ball.

On first pass, I watched Cooper and White and White just looked head and shoulders better as far as catching balls at the Pro level. Cooper looked like he'd have to make a lot of adjustments since he would have to resort to so much more hand catching than he was used to. And all of that "translating" is "thinking" which slows rookies down... and that typically is a bad thing.

Even on short 4 yard slants, White has his hands OUT and after securing the catch, then brings the ball in strong.

Textbook.

If I were a DB, I know which guy I'd want to defend.

Cooper.

All day.... I'd man him up and get in his shirt and stay tight... Cooper does well high pointing balls, but he lets balls get into his body, even balls on Out patterns! huh? Who arm/body catches an out pattern? It's like the opposite of Cris Carter...

I think Cooper could become a very good WR, but that body catching thing I think will be a much bigger issue his rookie year than other fans. It may not be... his WR coach in the NFL may able to refocus him and get him squared away, but the guy's got YEARS of being successful doing this so I tend to think he won't just stop doing this after a couple of OTAs and Camp practices...

All that said...

If White is there at #10... I'd say yeah, the Rams should run to the podium. I wish it was understatement, but his hands remind me of Michael Irvin...and not a rookie Irvin... I really think he's THAT good. And we've seen some rookie WR's break out.

If Sam does come back healthy, White's a guy who could just explode, especially if Britt is the #1, Bailey is the #2 and Cignetti is using Austin creatively. I expect that puts Quick at the #3 allowing him to come back slow while the White works into the rotation... That would be exciting...
 

jrry32

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Amari Cooper is not a body catcher...not at all one. And you're not supposed to catch a 4 yard slant against tight coverage with your hands extended away from your frame. WRs are taught to body the ball when in traffic. That's not the same thing as body catching. Body catching is trapping the ball with your arms after letting it into your chest. Bodying the ball is catching it with your hands close to your frame so you can immediately protect the ball in anticipation of being hit.

If you attack it away from your frame, it's easier for a DB to jar it loose in the time it takes for you to bring it back to your body.
 

Mackeyser

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So watch him. He does it. A lot.

I'm talking about hand catching versus body catching. Cooper does it even in space when no contact is imminent. Even on out routes when contact with the ground IS imminent (and at the NFL level, if they see the ball touch the ground, the slightest movement will mean an incomplete pass).

I realize that in traffic, a receiver would not want to fully extend. That said, the receiver still wants to go get the ball and bring it in rather than let it hit the receiver in the body. Granted sometimes that happens, but it's not how it should happen and when it does, it gives the defender a greater play on the ball.

When the receiver extends a bit (which still amounts to not catching with the body) and then brings the ball into the body, the catch can be quickly secured while making it very difficult for the defender to make that initial play without initiating PI.

When the receiver does not extend and allows the ball fully into the body, the defender need only be able to reach around the offensive player in order to attempt disruption. Further, by allowing the ball into the body, the receiver allows a certain amount of contact by the defender to be initiated as a play on the ball and not as Pass Interference. However, if the receiver is catching the ball away from his body, such contact becomes unacceptable as the play on the ball is not on the receiver's body.

It's one of the reasons Seattle can do what it does. Lots of mediocre receivers let them. Granted, they are a very good group, but they also get away with a lot not because they hit like trucks (well, outside of Kam Chancellor), but because receivers let the ball get into their bodies and that's when they play the most aggressively for the ball.

Especially in our division, I wouldn't go for a receiver like Cooper.

Imho, White is a MUCH better receiver for a QB like Bradford and the offense that Cignetti is going to run.

Not that it will matter much, because we'll very likely end up with an OL, but who knows?
 

tahoe

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I love White too, I would just assume that if Cooper was there at 10 White would be gone and vise versa. I wpuld be very happy with either guy in horns next year.
 

Elmgrovegnome

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I'd take White over Cooper.

I disagree with Wagoners take that the Rams would not draft a WR at ten. Today Snead talked about lining up the top ten to twelve players and waiting to see who is left when they pick at ten and hope that they matchup with the top three needs and then decide from there. Is that likely to be OLine ? Sure but say the Rams rate White as a top 3 pick and he falls, and they consider WR a need, albeit not an urgent one, then they take him. It is similar to Aaron Donald. He was clearly their BPA. Snead really hinted that they would try to go BPA in round 1 and address needs later in the draft. That is the best way to go IMO.
 

jrry32

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So watch him. He does it. A lot.

I have been talking about Cooper since his freshman year. I have watched him. More than the vast vast majority of non-Alabama fans have.

He's not a body-catcher. He has natural hands.

I'm talking about hand catching versus body catching. Cooper does it even in space when no contact is imminent. Even on out routes when contact with the ground IS imminent (and at the NFL level, if they see the ball touch the ground, the slightest movement will mean an incomplete pass).

Looks okay here:

View: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:11763503


View: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:11956098


View: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:11956385


View: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:11956906


View: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:11520468


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOhn3nHTBYk


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BaxW6aanQo


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3idq4erqQdU


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvwfj-xXEpc


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArZ26L-oVX8
 

jrry32

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I'd take White over Cooper.

I disagree with Wagoners take that the Rams would not draft a WR at ten. Today Snead talked about lining up the top ten to twelve players and waiting to see who is left when they pick at ten and hope that they matchup with the top three needs and then decide from there. Is that likely to be OLine ? Sure but say the Rams rate White as a top 3 pick and he falls, and they consider WR a need, albeit not an urgent one, then they take him. It is similar to Aaron Donald. He was clearly their BPA. Snead really hinted that they would try to go BPA in round 1 and address needs later in the draft. That is the best way to go IMO.

I love Kevin White but I'd take Cooper in a second. White has a ways to go. His route running is very raw. Cooper isn't just extremely athletically talented...he's extremely pro ready. You can tell the guy has a high football IQ and an elite work ethic watching all the subtle things he picks up and incorporates into his game.

This is a kid that is made to be a NFL WR. He does so many things with his route running in college that a lot of pro WRs don't do. This kid is going to be a superstar.

I don't agree with Mayock that often but I also see some Torry Holt in Cooper. Cooper's route running, athleticism, explosiveness out of his breaks, and ability to track the football are all reminiscent of Holt. Except Cooper is an even better talent with the ball in his hands.

White is going to be a nice pick...he'll develop into something great down the line. But Cooper is ready to be great right now.
 

Mojo Ram

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I totally disagree.

He's a basket catcher. Looks like Willie Mays out there. Contrast him with Kevin White who's hand catching reminds me of Irvin...so strong.

Granted, he controls the ball with his hands INTO his body, but he still puts the ball on his body and that's just BAD for what the Rams are going to be doing because it gives the DB more opportunity to make a play on the ball.

On first pass, I watched Cooper and White and White just looked head and shoulders better as far as catching balls at the Pro level. Cooper looked like he'd have to make a lot of adjustments since he would have to resort to so much more hand catching than he was used to. And all of that "translating" is "thinking" which slows rookies down... and that typically is a bad thing.

Even on short 4 yard slants, White has his hands OUT and after securing the catch, then brings the ball in strong.

Textbook.

If I were a DB, I know which guy I'd want to defend.

Cooper.

All day.... I'd man him up and get in his shirt and stay tight... Cooper does well high pointing balls, but he lets balls get into his body, even balls on Out patterns! huh? Who arm/body catches an out pattern? It's like the opposite of Cris Carter...

I think Cooper could become a very good WR, but that body catching thing I think will be a much bigger issue his rookie year than other fans. It may not be... his WR coach in the NFL may able to refocus him and get him squared away, but the guy's got YEARS of being successful doing this so I tend to think he won't just stop doing this after a couple of OTAs and Camp practices...

All that said...

If White is there at #10... I'd say yeah, the Rams should run to the podium. I wish it was understatement, but his hands remind me of Michael Irvin...and not a rookie Irvin... I really think he's THAT good. And we've seen some rookie WR's break out.

If Sam does come back healthy, White's a guy who could just explode, especially if Britt is the #1, Bailey is the #2 and Cignetti is using Austin creatively. I expect that puts Quick at the #3 allowing him to come back slow while the White works into the rotation... That would be exciting...
I've looked at all the top guys and White stands out the most to me as the guy who will transition smoothly and excel for years. I think he could be pretty special. I see some Larry Fitz in his abilities.
 

Mojo Ram

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I love Kevin White but I'd take Cooper in a second. White has a ways to go. His route running is very raw. Cooper isn't just extremely athletically talented...he's extremely pro ready. You can tell the guy has a high football IQ and an elite work ethic watching all the subtle things he picks up and incorporates into his game.

This is a kid that is made to be a NFL WR. He does so many things with his route running in college that a lot of pro WRs don't do. This kid is going to be a superstar.

I don't agree with Mayock that often but I also see some Torry Holt in Cooper. Cooper's route running, athleticism, explosiveness out of his breaks, and ability to track the football are all reminiscent of Holt. Except Cooper is an even better talent with the ball in his hands.

White is going to be a nice pick...he'll develop into something great down the line. But Cooper is ready to be great right now.
Lol complete opposite POV's you and i have on White.
 

jrry32

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Lol complete opposite POV's you and i have on White.

White? I love the kid but his route running is a mess and he's only played two years of FBS football...and he did it in an Air Raid offense. Look at the time it's taking Tavon and Stedman to transition to the NFL. Hell, Stedman was actually a pretty polished kid coming out.

White is going to be asked to go from an offense with a limited route tree and playbook...a route tree that he hasn't really mastered yet...into a NFL offense. I think he's going to need time. Even Alshon Jeffery needed a year...and Alshon is the most dominant contested catch and traffic WR I've seen in my time evaluating.

White is a great athlete seems to have outstanding character and work ethic...but he's raw. I think people have to keep that in mind.
 

ausmurp

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White is going to be a nice pick...he'll develop into something great down the line. But Cooper is ready to be great right now.

And this is exactly what this team has needed since 2008. We need a guy who is ready now ala sevral of the rookies from the last 2 years: DeAndre Hopkins, Alshon Jeffery, Keenan Allan, Mike Evans, Sammy Watkins, Odell Beckham, Kelvin Benjiman, the list goes on and on and on and we have passed on a few of these guys. We cannot afford to pass on one again I have been saying this for a few years now. I would hope we would draft Cooper immediately and not even look back at the OLman we passed on - we can spend the rest of the draft on OL but we need a playmaker who can use this equation: Player + Ball = TD
 

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Cooper's route running, athleticism, explosiveness out of his breaks, and ability to track the football are all reminiscent of Holt. Except Cooper is an even better talent with the ball in his hands.

White is going to be a nice pick...he'll develop into something great down the line. But Cooper is ready to be great right now.
WOW! That's high praise for someone who hasn't played a down in the NFL yet. I hope your right, as long as the Rams get him!
 

Athos

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I like White more simply from a physical standpoint and what I've seen him do.

Cooper is more pro-ready. Don't think he's Torry Holt fast though. Not even close. Holt was crazy fast in and out of routes.

At any rate, I have a hard-on for DGB's physical talents over everybody since Megatron. Seriously, if someone gets ahold of that kid and can mold him, they have a franchise WR to make any QB look good.
 

jrry32

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WOW! That's high praise for someone who hasn't played a down in the NFL yet. I hope your right, as long as the Rams get him!

He deserves it. 6'1" 211 with 10 inch hands, speed sitting somewhere between a 4.37 and a 4.44, great leaping ability, strength to break tackles after catch, elite agility, acceleration, and change of direction skills, natural hands, tracks the ball incredibly well, creates yardage after the catch, can burn the defense over the top, amazing route runner...everything is there.

People loved Watkins last year? Cooper is a better version of Watkins. Cooper is Watkins if Watkins was a polished route runner with top tier change of direction skills.

I like White more simply from a physical standpoint and what I've seen him do.

Cooper is more pro-ready. Don't think he's Torry Holt fast though. Not even close. Holt was crazy fast in and out of routes.

At any rate, I have a hard-on for DGB's physical talents over everybody since Megatron. Seriously, if someone gets ahold of that kid and can mold him, they have a franchise WR to make any QB look good.

If he's not Torry fast, he's not far off. He's Sammy Watkins fast. I'll tell you that much.

But in terms of in and out of his breaks, yes, he's a lot like Torry. He's crazy smooth and explosive. Makes it look effortless when changing directions, he really snaps his routes off, and he accelerates so well out of his cut that defenders get left in the dust.

That kid is going to be seriously good. Don't underestimate him. He checks EVERY box except height. That's the only "negative"...and the negative is that he's 6'1" instead of 6'4". Oh well.

I'm telling you...Cooper is amazing. There's not a single important skill that I can actually think of that Cooper doesn't do incredibly well. The worst thing I can say about him is that he has concentration drops for time to time.

And his drop rate was something like 5% to 6%...which is average. So it's not even a true problem.
 

Mackeyser

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Okay... that was a lot of video and I was out all day yesterday running errands... Didn't want to put it on the data plan and the wife's iPhone 6 had to be warranty replaced (red screened) and as she's the Cookie Chair for my daughter's Girl Scout Troop, she's coordinating only slightly LESS than SHAEF did during the Normandy Invasion... so her phone crapping out was causing a massive freak out. Especially since iTunes didn't want to do the backup initially...

Anyway, obviously Amari Cooper is a very talented WR who was targeted a TON of times and is very capable. He's fast, he's silky smooth into and out of his breaks and he CAN extend his catch radius very nicely.

I'm absolutely NOT trying to dog Cooper. I don't like that he catches too many balls against his body. I see that he does that. You either may not see that or may discount that or I may be wrong about that. But I have seen enough evidence of that that it concerns me that he does that. In particular, he basket caught that fade route over his shoulder rather than elevate and grab the contested ball. A better DB gets the INT in that scenario even though Cooper had the position to elevate and get the TD. Instead, the DB whiffed and Cooper caught the ball. I saw that as "success by mistake". He was successful doing something the wrong way. Heck, we saw tons of that with Chris Long coming out. His footwork was a damned mess (and I have no problem standing by that especially since in his rookie season post season interview, one of the first things Chris Long said he needed to really work on was his footwork)

Anyway, the more I watch Cooper, the more I like him. He's deceptive and maybe that's a good thing. He's deceptively fast, deceptively quick and has a deceptively large catch radius.

There's NO chance the Rams go and get him, but I just wanted to clear the air. I don't dislike Cooper. There have been 1st round guys whom I thought were just busts and wouldn't take for anything. Cooper isn't one of them. I think he WILL need to work on his form and will have to unlearn some of those "habits" because DBs and Safeties close so much faster in the NFL, as you know, so he may think he's wide open, but half a second after he basket catches, some Safety will not only make him blow snot bubbles, but jar that ball 2o yards away from him in a flash leaving him with nothing but the doctor going over the concussion protocol on the sidelines.

Just didn't want you to think I hadn't seen your response.
 

jrry32

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Okay... that was a lot of video and I was out all day yesterday running errands... Didn't want to put it on the data plan and the wife's iPhone 6 had to be warranty replaced (red screened) and as she's the Cookie Chair for my daughter's Girl Scout Troop, she's coordinating only slightly LESS than SHAEF did during the Normandy Invasion... so her phone crapping out was causing a massive freak out. Especially since iTunes didn't want to do the backup initially...

No worries. Just make sure we all get our free cookies. ;)

Anyway, obviously Amari Cooper is a very talented WR who was targeted a TON of times and is very capable. He's fast, he's silky smooth into and out of his breaks and he CAN extend his catch radius very nicely.

I'm absolutely NOT trying to dog Cooper. I don't like that he catches too many balls against his body. I see that he does that. You either may not see that or may discount that or I may be wrong about that. But I have seen enough evidence of that that it concerns me that he does that. In particular, he basket caught that fade route over his shoulder rather than elevate and grab the contested ball. A better DB gets the INT in that scenario even though Cooper had the position to elevate and get the TD. Instead, the DB whiffed and Cooper caught the ball. I saw that as "success by mistake". He was successful doing something the wrong way. Heck, we saw tons of that with Chris Long coming out. His footwork was a damned mess (and I have no problem standing by that especially since in his rookie season post season interview, one of the first things Chris Long said he needed to really work on was his footwork)

I'm confused. Which play are we talking about?(which team did it happen against?)

Anyway, the more I watch Cooper, the more I like him. He's deceptive and maybe that's a good thing. He's deceptively fast, deceptively quick and has a deceptively large catch radius.

There's NO chance the Rams go and get him, but I just wanted to clear the air. I don't dislike Cooper. There have been 1st round guys whom I thought were just busts and wouldn't take for anything. Cooper isn't one of them. I think he WILL need to work on his form and will have to unlearn some of those "habits" because DBs and Safeties close so much faster in the NFL, as you know, so he may think he's wide open, but half a second after he basket catches, some Safety will not only make him blow snot bubbles, but jar that ball 2o yards away from him in a flash leaving him with nothing but the doctor going over the concussion protocol on the sidelines.

Just didn't want you to think I hadn't seen your response.

It's all good. I don't blame anyone for not responding to one of the many novels I write on here. :LOL:

But I appreciate the head's up.

I wouldn't trade up for him but with the reports that White might go higher, if he falls, I'd jump on him if I'm the Rams.
 

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It's at 2:04 against Florida. The DB is a step behind and Cooper basket catches it rather than squaring up and securing the ball. At the next level, at best that's an incomplete.

I wouldn't judge him on one ball, but it's a play that jumped out to me.
 

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It's at 2:04 against Florida. The DB is a step behind and Cooper basket catches it rather than squaring up and securing the ball. At the next level, at best that's an incomplete.

I wouldn't judge him on one ball, but it's a play that jumped out to me.


Okay, I thought you might be referencing that play but I wasn't totally sure. I think the problem on that play was that the ball wasn't thrown where it was supposed to be. Cooper beat the guy so badly on the release that he probably didn't expect to need to go up for it. But Sims put too much air under it and left it too far inside instead of throwing it more to the sideline. So Cooper had to slow down and wait on it. I think if the DB had been in his hip pocket, we likely would have seen him go up for it. But since he had the guy beaten so badly, he opted instead to body it to keep the DB who was trying to recover from knocking it out of his hands.

But I don't know...can't look into his mind haha.

I guess that one doesn't really bother me so much because I can understand his decision to do it. And seeing him earlier in the game go up and get it against Hargreaves, I just think that was more of a situational decision.