Mark Barron - Does Size Matter Most?

[RamFan503]

The Rams have have two standouts, and five very ordinary players, in their front seven.

Maybe you are happy with being the 28th ranked rushing defense, I am not. This pitiful performance came with a lot of our opponents playing from behind.

+1900 yards given up at 4.7 yards a clip.

Unacceptable.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing/position/defense

It’s not a matter of being happy or complacent. Quite the opposite. I think it is more a matter of how you address it. Do you give up more underneath passes with a slower gap filling LB or do you go after a run stuffing, block occupying NT that will free up the likes of Donald and Brockers to get into the backfield for TFLs and sacks while forming a shut down Back field. I know it’s not that simple but preferences being what they are, the latter would be more my direction.

 

[Riverumbbq]

So with all said, where do we spend our resources? We can all recognize that we can't address everything. So is it more important to address the OLB positions (both of them in reality), the ILB positions by replacing Barron and/or moving Tree to the weak side, finding a shut down corner and realistically upgrading our #2 as well? Keep in mind that we need to improve our depth or coach up our DB positions, figure out our depth at all LB positions, find a hole stuffing/block absorbing DT, either sign Watkins or find another "#1 receiver", find the future LT and Center and maybe improve the RT position, supposedly upgrade our back-up QB position........

My point is that given that we have a couple total studs at interior D-line and could complete that group with an upgrade at NT; We have serious age and weakness issues at OLB with Barwin getting long in the tooth and Quinn potentially getting worn down before his time and it's quite possible we have to replace both during the off season; No matter what they say, keeping Tru is probably a long shot and is Webster really who you want to see starting for us on the other side? Is Hill the answer starting over there or is he depth?

So there are potentially 5 starters on defense that we may be looking to replace besides Barron. Does replacing our leading tackler and someone the coaches have stated they admire his work ethic and leadership make more sense and improve the team more than making it more difficult for RBs to get to the second level, or putting more pressure on the QB, or shutting down the other team's receivers? Is that the priority? Because something has to give. I personally like power on the line and getting to the QB. I don't see the ILB position losing us games. I do see not being able to move the O-line off the ball or get to the QB by rushing four as a big weakness on this team even with freaks like Donald and Brockers. My next priority would be coverage. So I would go for improving the DB group and sticking with our good coverage ILBs.

I'm all for having a stud ILB line up next to Tree and I recognize that Barron is small for the position. I just think we can do him more favors by not having the RB hit him full speed and take advantage of his inside coverage ability and nose for the ball.

Actually, I believe we can address everything, ... because of our resources. We may not land the best at every position, but we can certainly upgrade the D as a whole. With Barron & Austin off the books, that's near $10.mil. to help find an ILB who can rush block in free agency. Todd Davis, a Wade Phillips ILB at Denver is now a free agent, he's 25 years old and ranked 11'th in the NFL in run defense this past season. Doubtful he approaches what Barron was paid as our 4-3 WLB. Barron & Ogletree ranked near the bottom in run defense.
At the beginning of last season Brockers was our NT, Donald our RDE and Easley was supposedly the first man up to compete at starting LDE. When Easley went down in camp Aug 1'st, our entire DL became a work in progress with shifting & experimenting various players in and out. Westbrooks, Fox, Walker & Purcells tried to hold it down until Westbrooks essentially got the nod, but he failed and Brockers was moved into the starting LDE role for the first time as a Pro. The experiment in the middle began with Smart added to the mix and Purcells already gone from the team. Westbrooks won it again after Smart went down in flames and Walker was his first reserve, ... both Westbrooks & Walker being better pass rushers than run defenders. For 2018, it may be wise to keep Brockers at LDE and Donald at RDE, with Easley (if Healthy) probably best as Brockers main rotation. Tanzel Smart will have an off-season to get stronger and we'll likely see an improved camp body in Omarius Bryant return from our Practice Squad. Still, most here suspect a NT will be a high priority in free agency and/or the draft as together with our LB'ers, we weren't much at run blocking this season. Wade Phillips has only taken a DT high off the board once as a HC, that was his very 1'st year in 1985, so i'm presuming that it will be either a mid-round pick, a free agent, or perhaps both, although you never know how these things go down. The Rams have enough reserve pass rushing DT/DE's, either we find a 3 down NT or a run blocking specialist who will rotate with our current players, ... where we draft or how high we pay for a free agent should be rather telling. If it's a free agent, about the only two I like are Oakland's Justin Ellis and Seattle's Sheldon Richardson, ... with Ellis leading. A combination of Ellis & Todd Davis should help put an end to our interior run blocking woes. IMO, add a #2 CB in free agency and i'm basically done, our #1 CB, OLB & OL depth would all come from the draft. jmo.

 

[VegasRam]

I do remember a few people pointing out that Mark Barron is a little light for an inside linebacker.

And I can't get past the way Atlanta ran that ball on us in the 4th quarter.
I knew it was over at that point.

Nose tackle.
Inside linebacker.
A Cornerback if he can stop the run.

It was over after Cooper’s second fumble, and their ability to run was greatly facilitated by Brockers’ going out.

So if Barron weighed 20 more pounds, he could better take on 320 lb linemen?

 

[SteveBrown]

I keep seeing that everyone wants us to move on from Barron at ILB. I realize he is undersized. But I also see that Bucannon is considered one of the top ILB in the league at roughly the same size. The thought seems to also go that we can't have two undersized ILB as Tree is also undersized. How is Tree undersized? He is right in there in height and weight with all the top ILBs in the league aside from Hightower - who plays OLB probably more than ILB.

I get the idea that many want a big hitting run stuffing ILB. But is that really how the position is being played these days? Are we seeing games being won by run stuffing LBs or big D-lines with ILBs that can tackle and offer coverage on TEs and RBs while being able to blitz on occasion?

I agree that we need some depth at both ILB and OLB and possibly either a new starter at OLB or for one of our young guys to step up into that role. But what I don't agree with is this desire to move on from Barron. The guy is a player. Though undersized, he is seemingly always around the ball, a good blitzer, strong in coverage, and doesn't shy from hitting or filling gaps.

I could see the Rams putting in a bit larger LB for obvious run downs but I like the way Barron plays and he is just someone who does what he's asked to do and does it better than given credit.

I'd rather we go interior, DB, OLB, than try to replace a player that is IMO someone who every winning team needs - a player like Barron.

I have been waiting to write the same thing. I mostly agree....it his salaary more than his play that I worry about.

Barron's smaller stature makes it easier to turn on a dime and rotate and get in the right position much faster than any LB over 230 lbs. We don't have to worry about TEs because he can run with him better than most 6'2" 235-45lb LBs. His coverage ability to get around makes our pass defense pretty great (despite avg. corners). HOw many games did we lose because of him?

The Vikings game may have been different with a thumper, but really,maybe not.....what other games did he cost us? Not the Redskins game, but he didn't help.

I was surprised they resigned Ogletree, because I thought they might pair Barron with someone else....but, they have Ogletree signed, so if anyone goes it is Barron. I have a feeling they try to keep him for 2018. He is very good, but his $9-11 mill keeps us from getting someone else....maybe for one year we hold off. Maybe that $9-11 mill could be used on Sammy while Littleton takes Barron's spot?

I do know this: Barron is the toughtest man on that defense. Him and Brockers are the heart!

 

[SteveBrown]

It was over after Cooper’s second fumble, and their ability to run was greatly facilitated by Brockers’ going out.
So if Barron weighed 20 more pounds, he could better take on 320 lb linemen?

I have seen 245 lbs run full steam in to guards and 'hold' their ground--eliminating any creases. Barron doesn't do this, and can't. Barron gets engulfed by them somewhat easily.
So, if it was pre 2010 I would be worried, but we are in a passing age, and I will take Barron....giving up 3-8 runs a game that a 245lber might have kept at 2-3 yards instead of 5-15. I think Wade recognizes this.

Makes sense to Barron 5-10 plays off a game for some 'recovery' time.

 

[Soul Surfer]

It was over after Cooper’s second fumble, and their ability to run was greatly facilitated by Brockers’ going out.

So if Barron weighed 20 more pounds, he could better take on 320 lb linemen?

Pretty silly question.
Defensive lineman take on offensive lineman.
Linebackers are at the second level and take on running backs.

I think we were weak in several places on the defense.

Up the middle because Westbrooks is not a nose tackle that can take on multiple blockers and he wore down.

Barron wore down too because he's not a 250-pound inside linebacker.

There's a reason that inside linebackers are 245 - 250 lbs.

I think the Rams will prioritize nose tackle and inside linebacker which will prove my point just fine.

Maybe rotate Baron and another inside linebacker to keep him more fresh but he was not tackling anybody any where near the line of scrimmage which is what we needed in the 4th quarter to have any chance of getting back in the game.

 

[Ramstien]

I don't think the problem is Barron or Ogletree, don't be surprised if the Rams take a legit NT with the 23rd pick. Either Payne or that #50 from Kansas St.

 

[Soul Surfer]

starting to fall in love with Vea from Wash. in the draft and should be around at our pick from projections right now. A big reason we got steam rolled up the middle was Brockers was out and our NT (Westbrooks) is more of a DT/OLB. Hopefully we get a great NT which stops the run, that would help increase the effectiveness of the rest of the pieces we'll have.

Not all teams play a 3-4 and ones that do might already have a true nose tackle so I think Vea will be there for us at 23.
I wouldn't even get cute and trade down unless it was one spot and risk losing out on him.
He's a special player from what I've read and seen

 

[Soul Surfer]

It’s not a matter of being happy or complacent. Quite the opposite. I think it is more a matter of how you address it. Do you give up more underneath passes with a slower gap filling LB or do you go after a run stuffing, block occupying NT that will free up the likes of Donald and Brockers to get into the backfield for TFLs and sacks while forming a shut down Back field. I know it’s not that simple but preferences being what they are, the latter would be more my direction.

Stopping the run is always a priority and there's only really one way to do it.
You have to be stronger in the trenches than they are and at the second level.
There are several ways to stop the pass and that's providing they ever get it in sync to begin with or are able to consistently get it going to begin with.

The old adage still holds true; you run until they prove they can stop it.

 

[Ram65]

I saw Luke Kuechly miss a tackle. I saw Luke Kuechly get blocked by an offensive lineman. It happens to the best of them.

Barron makes some great tackles. He is very solid in coverage and makes plays in the running game. Of course he will get blocked out from time to time. Overall he is very solid when on the field. He has taken a lot of snaps over the last three years. I do think the injuries hinter his effectiveness by both not being on the field and not being as sharp if he were healthy. Looking from the outside I would let him go. The Rams staff my feel he can rehab in the off season and get another year of effective play. As far as his size if you can find a LBer that covers like him and is 20 Lbs heavier sign him up.

 

[Adi]

I have always said I love our fast "small" linebackers. Obviously it would be nice to have a bigger run stopping MLB.BUT i think we have the best set of coverage linebackers, our pass D has been playing very well .

Draft a good run stopping NT in the draft or get one in FA. That will take care of our run D

 

[LACHAMP46]

It comes down to one thing when assessing just about any D player other than AD, Brockers, and Joyner.

For me anyway.

Can another player or another position for a given player improve our D overall?

I think Wade is asking himself those questions about all 8 of his other D players.

I'm not sure Joyner is a priority...
Hell, until I see AD inked, not sure he's one as well...
In son of bums eyes....

So if Barron weighed 20 more pounds, he could better take on 320 lb linemen?

Maybe....couldn't hurt. I've seen 235 lb SS Kam Chancelor blow linemen up...it's not all size...but he's probably played like that all his life.

I do know this: Barron is the toughest man on that defense.

Agreed....it's why I would always want a spot to play him.

Strong Safety.

 

[RamFan503]

I saw Luke Kuechly miss a tackle. I saw Luke Kuechly get blocked by an offensive lineman. It happens to the best of them.

Barron makes some great tackles. He is very solid in coverage and makes plays in the running game. Of course he will get blocked out from time to time. Overall he is very solid when on the field. He has taken a lot of snaps over the last three years. I do think the injuries hinter his effectiveness by both not being on the field and not being as sharp if he were healthy. Looking from the outside I would let him go. The Rams staff my feel he can rehab in the off season and get another year of effective play. As far as his size if you can find a LBer that covers like him and is 20 Lbs heavier sign him up.

Exactly. And Navarro Bowman got severely injured on a play. That happens too. In fact it happens a lot to ILBs.

 

[RamFan503]

I have always said I love our fast "small" linebackers. Obviously it would be nice to have a bigger run stopping MLB.BUT i think we have the best set of coverage linebackers, our pass D has been playing very well .

Draft a good run stopping NT in the draft or get one in FA. That will take care of our run D

So I'm not alone in this thought.

 

[RamFan503]

Stopping the run is always a priority and there's only really one way to do it.
You have to be stronger in the trenches than they are and at the second level.
There are several ways to stop the pass and that's providing they ever get it in sync to begin with or are able to consistently get it going to begin with.

The old adage still holds true; you run until they prove they can stop it.

How do you figure? Great defensive teams don't always have stellar D-lines AND LBs. There is almost always an either/or situation.

 

[Merlin]

Not all teams play a 3-4 and ones that do might already have a true nose tackle so I think Vea will be there for us at 23.

Vea is more than a 3-4 NT. That dude can not just play but excel in different assignments. If he gets outside the top ten I will be absolutely shocked.

 

[RamFan503]

Actually, I believe we can address everything, ... because of our resources. We may not land the best at every position, but we can certainly upgrade the D as a whole. With Barron & Austin off the books, that's near $10.mil. to help find an ILB who can rush block in free agency. Todd Davis, a Wade Phillips ILB at Denver is now a free agent, he's 25 years old and ranked 11'th in the NFL in run defense this past season. Doubtful he approaches what Barron was paid as our 4-3 WLB. Barron & Ogletree ranked near the bottom in run defense.
At the beginning of last season Brockers was our NT, Donald our RDE and Easley was supposedly the first man up to compete at starting LDE. When Easley went down in camp Aug 1'st, our entire DL became a work in progress with shifting & experimenting various players in and out. Westbrooks, Fox, Walker & Purcells tried to hold it down until Westbrooks essentially got the nod, but he failed and Brockers was moved into the starting LDE role for the first time as a Pro. The experiment in the middle began with Smart added to the mix and Purcells already gone from the team. Westbrooks won it again after Smart went down in flames and Walker was his first reserve, ... both Westbrooks & Walker being better pass rushers than run defenders. For 2018, it may be wise to keep Brockers at LDE and Donald at RDE, with Easley (if Healthy) probably best as Brockers main rotation. Tanzel Smart will have an off-season to get stronger and we'll likely see an improved camp body in Omarius Bryant return from our Practice Squad. Still, most here suspect a NT will be a high priority in free agency and/or the draft as together with our LB'ers, we weren't much at run blocking this season. Wade Phillips has only taken a DT high off the board once as a HC, that was his very 1'st year in 1985, so i'm presuming that it will be either a mid-round pick, a free agent, or perhaps both, although you never know how these things go down. The Rams have enough reserve pass rushing DT/DE's, either we find a 3 down NT or a run blocking specialist who will rotate with our current players, ... where we draft or how high we pay for a free agent should be rather telling. If it's a free agent, about the only two I like are Oakland's Justin Ellis and Seattle's Sheldon Richardson, ... with Ellis leading. A combination of Ellis & Todd Davis should help put an end to our interior run blocking woes. IMO, add a #2 CB in free agency and i'm basically done, our #1 CB, OLB & OL depth would all come from the draft. jmo.

It's difficult to go by rankings such as run stopping LBs IMO. Where is the LB stopping the run and why? It seems to me that Wade doesn't run a defense where his LBs stuff holes as much as they are supposed to take on RBs that make it past the line and also cover the short passing game. The three interior linemen and two OLBs are supposed to contain the run and get after the QB.

Todd Davis is still only 230lbs so is he necessarily an upgrade - or do the LBs and the D-line just need another season to integrate? Davis had around 30% less tackles than Barron last year. Maybe he had such a high grade because he didn't have to do as much.

Wade has only been HC for 6 drafts and likely wasn't given the decision on who to draft in Dallas with Jerruh at the controls. That doesn't give you a whole lot of insight as to which positions he would or would not draft. But I would agree that he will likely have the biggest say this season whenever we go D in the draft.

My concern is that any time a RB gets into the second level, he is often getting there with a head of steam and/or an O-lineman or two escorting him. If it's the latter, a 230 lb LB is not any big upgrade IMO. Then if you go bigger, what have you given up? IMO - we have to get better at stopping the run before it gets to the second level thereby forcing teams to pass. And if we give up on LBs that are pretty damn good in both tackling and coverage, we will get picked apart all day long with quick passes. And I'd add that Barron is a more sure tackler than Tree and drives into the ball carrier better. We all like Tree's size better and I wouldn't suggest replacing him but give me a guy like Barron all day and twice on Sundays. He simply makes your defense better. Upgrade somewhere else.

 

[Ellard80]

Someone should do a analysis of a teams ILB size and their run defense....or if a 4-3 defense is better than a 3-4 defense against the run.. ect ect.


I don't currently have the motivation.. all I'll throw out there is:
Eagles #1 run defense - OLB 241 MLB 245 OLB 240

Rams: OLB 255 ILB 235 ILB 225 OLB 250

Clearly we are lighter in the middle 230 avg vs 245
However our overall LB avgs is 241.2 vs Eagles 242... so hardly any difference.

Also are we getting beaten on runs up the middle? or is on a certain side? ect ect.

So it's hard for me to honestly say the run def issue is merely the ILB size.

It might be - but it could be a lot of other things also.

 

[Riverumbbq]

No one should be piling on Barron, he does his job relatively well, but his CAP costs should be scrutinized like anyone else, especially when there is a breakdown in the unit he's part of. For those willing to partially trust in PFF for statistics not otherwise available, Barron ranked # 45 overall, with Ogletree coming in at # 77 for ILB's. Denver's Todd Davis came in at # 35 & Indy's Jon Bostic at # 39. I only bring up Davis & Bostic because they are potential 2018 free agents. Now, these rankings don't offer much until you break down the scores, and when it comes to run defense :
OLB :
Quinn - 53.7
Barwin - 45.9
Longacre - 57.9
Ebukam - 75.7
ILB :
Barron - 44.9
Ogletree - 35.9
Davis - 86.1
Bostic - 84.0

These numbers are not meant to malign anyone, they all are better or worse at one of the 3 skillsets being measured, whether it be rush defense, coverage or pass rush. Barron excels in coverage, Quinn excels as a pass rusher. So pick your poison.
Again, without a lot of other statistics available on where, how & why, believing these rankings may come down to your trust in PFF or, of course, your own eyes and what you may have witnessed yourselves during this seasons games.

Barron is being called out because his salary was negotiated when he was still a 4-3 WLB, and Ogletree was just recently extended. This and the Rams 2017 rush defense ranked 28'th in the NFL. No one is blaming Barron soly for the breakdown, but his salary does make him an easy target, same with Barwin, although more due to age than money. And we all know the team didn't have a true NT this season, so the upgrades will commence ...

jmo.

 

[Merlin]

Todd Davis is still only 230lbs so is he necessarily an upgrade - or do the LBs and the D-line just need another season to integrate? Davis had around 30% less tackles than Barron last year. Maybe he had such a high grade because he didn't have to do as much.

Todd Davis is just a guy. He's not necessarily any better than guys like Littleton when you project to next year with Littleton having another camp.

Now Demario Davis? Yeah. You got somethin there. That's a guy who could come in here and upgrade us over Barron, along with moving Tree over where he belongs.