Mark Barron - Does Size Matter Most?

[RamFan503]

I keep seeing that everyone wants us to move on from Barron at ILB. I realize he is undersized. But I also see that Bucannon is considered one of the top ILB in the league at roughly the same size. The thought seems to also go that we can't have two undersized ILB as Tree is also undersized. How is Tree undersized? He is right in there in height and weight with all the top ILBs in the league aside from Hightower - who plays OLB probably more than ILB.

I get the idea that many want a big hitting run stuffing ILB. But is that really how the position is being played these days? Are we seeing games being won by run stuffing LBs or big D-lines with ILBs that can tackle and offer coverage on TEs and RBs while being able to blitz on occasion?

I agree that we need some depth at both ILB and OLB and possibly either a new starter at OLB or for one of our young guys to step up into that role. But what I don't agree with is this desire to move on from Barron. The guy is a player. Though undersized, he is seemingly always around the ball, a good blitzer, strong in coverage, and doesn't shy from hitting or filling gaps.

I could see the Rams putting in a bit larger LB for obvious run downs but I like the way Barron plays and he is just someone who does what he's asked to do and does it better than given credit.

I'd rather we go interior, DB, OLB, than try to replace a player that is IMO someone who every winning team needs - a player like Barron.

 

[VegasRam]

Get no argument from me - I like him better than tree.

 

[I like Rams]

I like both Barron and Tree as well and do not want to see them leave. Their size is not the problem, its their tackling that gets them in trouble and not always reading the offense correctly. Those two things can be fixed with another off-season under their belts.

 

[Stump23]

Barron has been great since we stole him from the Bucs. Problem is that he's a medical nightmare at this point in his career. We babied him through training camp and he still had challenges finishing the season, when we will need him the most. If he can stay healthy, he's is a true asset to the defense. Tree is awesome as well but lacks gap integrity at inopportune times. Maybe that comes with more time in Wade's defense and next year his understanding of it will make him even better.

 

[Merlin]

The problem isn't size. It's that we have two ILBs who suck at getting off blocks. Barron sucks worse at that, and is paid very well. Plus his inability to get through the season this year kinda played into the whole "can he hold up" question so many had before the season.

IMO moving on from Barron and adding a partner for Tree who doesn't suck getting off blocks, a guy who brings some physicality, would be an improvement for the defense.

 

[LACHAMP46]

You can't have 2 ILB that have problems shedding blocks....number 1.

Number 2, Barron is now becoming injury prone...he looked rusty in the playoff loss (from lack of practice or game reps???? some genius wants to know)

Number 3...he's just too small to maintain his play in the middle of the field constantly....his miss on Sanu, was just as costly as Tree's miss on that 3rd down play...moreso, because they went on to score a TD and take a commanding lead late in the game...yall know where I want him.

It's obvious the team likes Ogletree...new contract....but Tree was beat up too....

Personally, Wade likes ILB's low in the draft, that can REALLY run....I'd look for some serious talent from some UDFA's at ILB in the next few years from Les...

 

[Riverumbbq]

I keep seeing that everyone wants us to move on from Barron at ILB. I realize he is undersized. But I also see that Bucannon is considered one of the top ILB in the league at roughly the same size. The thought seems to also go that we can't have two undersized ILB as Tree is also undersized. How is Tree undersized? He is right in there in height and weight with all the top ILBs in the league aside from Hightower - who plays OLB probably more than ILB.

I get the idea that many want a big hitting run stuffing ILB. But is that really how the position is being played these days? Are we seeing games being won by run stuffing LBs or big D-lines with ILBs that can tackle and offer coverage on TEs and RBs while being able to blitz on occasion?

I agree that we need some depth at both ILB and OLB and possibly either a new starter at OLB or for one of our young guys to step up into that role. But what I don't agree with is this desire to move on from Barron. The guy is a player. Though undersized, he is seemingly always around the ball, a good blitzer, strong in coverage, and doesn't shy from hitting or filling gaps.

I could see the Rams putting in a bit larger LB for obvious run downs but I like the way Barron plays and he is just someone who does what he's asked to do and does it better than given credit.

I'd rather we go interior, DB, OLB, than try to replace a player that is IMO someone who every winning team needs - a player like Barron.

I'm not sure it's a matter of fans wanting to move on from Barron so much as the Rams system may have moved on from Barron. The guy has passed just about every test thrown at him and he puts in a great effort. Greg Williams successfully moved him from SS to WLB, almost as successfully he moved Ogletree from WLB to 4-3 MLB. Barron has played his part as a 3-4 ILB as well as he can, but I still doubt that's his best fit, a Wade Phillips scheme may not take advantage of his skillset where as a 4-3 WLB he could potentially prolong his career in a more successful manner. As a highly paid player he is expected to start, not become an injury factor because he may be undersized for what he's being asked to do. Admittedly, i'm not sure Ogletree is a great fit either, but before we abandon them both, some of us would like to see Tree move over to Barron's role while actually replacing Tree with a true TED type ILB'er. For me it's worth a try as we're not doing Barron, Ogletree or the Rams interior any favors with this present lineup. Todd Davis' name keeps popping up because he was with Wade at Denver and is now a free agent, so it seems he may be a good replacement being he specializes as a rush defender. jmo.

 

[BonifayRam]

Most know I have been a solid Mark Barron fan but as the season wore on he became a liability when teamed with LB'ers Quinn, Barwin & Ogletree.

http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads/i-really-want-to-like-ogletree-but.53205/#post-1025502

This recently posted comment puts this question on Mark Barron on target for me.
"Basically it's Barron at $9M - yes or no?" by @flv

For me I say NO when Ram cap funds are needed elsewhere.

Now if there is a change of the guard @ both OLB'er posts then Barron might become worth his price tag to play in this 34 Wade Defense.

 

[Jacobarch]

Get no argument from me - I like him better than tree.

You might be on to something there. He was rated higher than Tree this year.

 

[Rams43]

You can't have 2 ILB that have problems shedding blocks....number 1.

Number 2, Barron is now becoming injury prone...he looked rusty in the playoff loss (from lack of practice or game reps???? some genius wants to know)

Number 3...he's just too small to maintain his play in the middle of the field constantly....his miss on Sanu, was just as costly as Tree's miss on that 3rd down play...moreso, because they went on to score a TD and take a commanding lead late in the game...yall know where I want him.

It's obvious the team likes Ogletree...new contract....but Tree was beat up too....

Personally, Wade likes ILB's low in the draft, that can REALLY run....I'd look for some serious talent from some UDFA's at ILB in the next few years from Les...

What Champ just said.

It comes down to one thing when assessing just about any D player other than AD, Brockers, and Joyner.

For me anyway.

Can another player or another position for a given player improve our D overall?

I think Wade is asking himself those questions about all 8 of his other D players.

I strongly believe that Wade will be allowed to “finish” his D this offseason. And we might be surprised at some of his moves.

 

[Rmfnlt]

Well, first of all, size does matter - at least that's what my GF says :eek:

I think Wade is asking himself those questions about all 8 of his other D players.

I have to remember that Phillips had to "work" a roster that was not in tune with his scheme.

Of course, some of these guys seemed out of position or awkward... they'd never been asked to play in those situations.

Phillips has had one full year with these guys now. He's in a position to do what he couldn't this year:
Jettison guys that aren't fits

I believe he'll make whatever changes need to be made to build that defense closer to what he knows works. His hands were tied this year.

I'm not sure who goes and stays... but I feel confident Phillips knows who goes and who stays.

 

[Prime Time]

I miss London Fletcher.

 

[RamFan503]

So with all said, where do we spend our resources? We can all recognize that we can't address everything. So is it more important to address the OLB positions (both of them in reality), the ILB positions by replacing Barron and/or moving Tree to the weak side, finding a shut down corner and realistically upgrading our #2 as well? Keep in mind that we need to improve our depth or coach up our DB positions, figure out our depth at all LB positions, find a hole stuffing/block absorbing DT, either sign Watkins or find another "#1 receiver", find the future LT and Center and maybe improve the RT position, supposedly upgrade our back-up QB position........

My point is that given that we have a couple total studs at interior D-line and could complete that group with an upgrade at NT; We have serious age and weakness issues at OLB with Barwin getting long in the tooth and Quinn potentially getting worn down before his time and it's quite possible we have to replace both during the off season; No matter what they say, keeping Tru is probably a long shot and is Webster really who you want to see starting for us on the other side? Is Hill the answer starting over there or is he depth?

So there are potentially 5 starters on defense that we may be looking to replace besides Barron. Does replacing our leading tackler and someone the coaches have stated they admire his work ethic and leadership make more sense and improve the team more than making it more difficult for RBs to get to the second level, or putting more pressure on the QB, or shutting down the other team's receivers? Is that the priority? Because something has to give. I personally like power on the line and getting to the QB. I don't see the ILB position losing us games. I do see not being able to move the O-line off the ball or get to the QB by rushing four as a big weakness on this team even with freaks like Donald and Brockers. My next priority would be coverage. So I would go for improving the DB group and sticking with our good coverage ILBs.

I'm all for having a stud ILB line up next to Tree and I recognize that Barron is small for the position. I just think we can do him more favors by not having the RB hit him full speed and take advantage of his inside coverage ability and nose for the ball.

 

[RamDino]

Mark Barron is a great football player. But how long can he take on 300+ pound guards? We will move on from him with no cap hit, and give that money to Joyner. Rams need 3 more linebackers, two more D-linemen, and probably 2 more corners. It's going to be an interesting off-season..

 

[ramfan46]

He's approaching 30 and his body will start breaking down even more. Now is the time to move on. You still have Littleton who could play his spot if it's necessary. A Donte Hightower type would work for me.

 

[BonifayRam]

So with all said, where do we spend our resources? We can all recognize that we can't address everything. So is it more important to address the OLB positions (both of them in reality), the ILB positions by replacing Barron and/or moving Tree to the weak side, finding a shut down corner and realistically upgrading our #2 as well? Keep in mind that we need to improve our depth or coach up our DB positions, figure out our depth at all LB positions, find a hole stuffing/block absorbing DT, either sign Watkins or find another "#1 receiver", find the future LT and Center and maybe improve the RT position, supposedly upgrade our back-up QB position........

My point is that given that we have a couple total studs at interior D-line and could complete that group with an upgrade at NT; We have serious age and weakness issues at OLB with Barwin getting long in the tooth and Quinn potentially getting worn down before his time and it's quite possible we have to replace both during the off season; No matter what they say, keeping Tru is probably a long shot and is Webster really who you want to see starting for us on the other side? Is Hill the answer starting over there or is he depth?

So there are potentially 5 starters on defense that we may be looking to replace besides Barron. Does replacing our leading tackler and someone the coaches have stated they admire his work ethic and leadership make more sense and improve the team more than making it more difficult for RBs to get to the second level, or putting more pressure on the QB, or shutting down the other team's receivers? Is that the priority? Because something has to give. I personally like power on the line and getting to the QB. I don't see the ILB position losing us games. I do see not being able to move the O-line off the ball or get to the QB by rushing four as a big weakness on this team even with freaks like Donald and Brockers. My next priority would be coverage. So I would go for improving the DB group and sticking with our good coverage ILBs.

I'm all for having a stud ILB line up next to Tree and I recognize that Barron is small for the position. I just think we can do him more favors by not having the RB hit him full speed and take advantage of his inside coverage ability and nose for the ball.

Its very difficult to nail down just what the Ram Org will do but if I had to offer up some of my thoughts & suggestions this is what I would say:

#1)-let Sammy Watkins/ Trumaine Johnson, Conner Barwin & Dom Easley enter Free Agency with a clear understanding the Rams are open to any of them returning to LA @ a fair market contracts some point after the first two weeks of FA'cy.

#2)-Top objectives in Ram UFA's: DT Aaron Donald, Safety Lamarcus Joyner, OC John Sullivan, CB Nickell Robey-Coleman, Safety Cody Davis, LS Jake McQuaide, NT Tyrunn Walker. Tender 2nd rd offers to RFA CB Troy Hill , RB Malcolm Brown, OLB Matt Longacre & LT Darrell Williams.

#3)-Sigh LG/LT Rodger Saffold to an 3 yr extension contract. (Thus attempting to secure 2 of the starting OL'ers for the 2018/2019/2020 seasons now so you can address Jamon Brown & Rob Havenstien this time next yr.The Saffold extension is insurance in case of LT Andrew Whitworth retirement or injury). Sign a UFA interior veteran starting OL'er i.e.Spencer Long or Justin Pugh as a replacement for Saffold @ LG. To ensure Goff is fully protected.Sign a FA past starting Inside LB'er.i.e.Todd Davis or Mychal Kendricks or Mason Foster

#4)-You utilized Tavon Austin, Rob Quinn & Mark Barron as valued trade tender to move up the draft spots to secure the desired prospects ahead of our assigned slots if needed or attempt to trade them straight up for draft picks. If there are no takers then cut them before June 1st to beef up the drained salary cap $$$ funds.

Utilize Snead's proven track record to Draft to secure 2 outside corners.On the same line of thought draft ....several Edge Rushers/ OLB'ers, a NT & a Interior LB'er prospect. That's six of the eight 2018 Rams draft selections.

 

[Soul Surfer]

I do remember a few people pointing out that Mark Barron is a little light for an inside linebacker.

And I can't get past the way Atlanta ran that ball on us in the 4th quarter.
I knew it was over at that point.

Nose tackle.
Inside linebacker.
A Cornerback if he can stop the run.

 

[Corbin]

So with all said, where do we spend our resources? We can all recognize that we can't address everything. So is it more important to address the OLB positions (both of them in reality), the ILB positions by replacing Barron and/or moving Tree to the weak side, finding a shut down corner and realistically upgrading our #2 as well? Keep in mind that we need to improve our depth or coach up our DB positions, figure out our depth at all LB positions, find a hole stuffing/block absorbing DT, either sign Watkins or find another "#1 receiver", find the future LT and Center and maybe improve the RT position, supposedly upgrade our back-up QB position........

My point is that given that we have a couple total studs at interior D-line and could complete that group with an upgrade at NT; We have serious age and weakness issues at OLB with Barwin getting long in the tooth and Quinn potentially getting worn down before his time and it's quite possible we have to replace both during the off season; No matter what they say, keeping Tru is probably a long shot and is Webster really who you want to see starting for us on the other side? Is Hill the answer starting over there or is he depth?

So there are potentially 5 starters on defense that we may be looking to replace besides Barron. Does replacing our leading tackler and someone the coaches have stated they admire his work ethic and leadership make more sense and improve the team more than making it more difficult for RBs to get to the second level, or putting more pressure on the QB, or shutting down the other team's receivers? Is that the priority? Because something has to give. I personally like power on the line and getting to the QB. I don't see the ILB position losing us games. I do see not being able to move the O-line off the ball or get to the QB by rushing four as a big weakness on this team even with freaks like Donald and Brockers. My next priority would be coverage. So I would go for improving the DB group and sticking with our good coverage ILBs.

I'm all for having a stud ILB line up next to Tree and I recognize that Barron is small for the position. I just think we can do him more favors by not having the RB hit him full speed and take advantage of his inside coverage ability and nose for the ball.

Great thread and response It's still hard for me to call Quinn a OLB lol!! Your first question where we should spend our resources? Once we tie a few loose ends on O in resigns etc I think we should complete Wades O. If we can couple a McVay offense with say a NT and ILB that can kill the run we should be good to go. Not to mention a young starting CB in the draft again like JJ or Tru we should be in damn good shape.

I do remember a few people pointing out that Mark Barron is a little light for an inside linebacker.

And I can't get past the way Atlanta ran that ball on us in the 4th quarter.
I knew it was over at that point.

Nose tackle.
Inside linebacker.
A Cornerback if he can stop the run.

Dude starting to fall in love with Vea from Wash. in the draft and should be around at our pick from projections right now. A big reason we got steam rolled up the middle was Brockers was out and our NT (Westbrooks) is more of a DT/OLB. Hopefully we get a great NT which stops the run, that would help increase the effectiveness of the rest of the pieces we'll have.

 

[sjm1582002]

The Rams have have two standouts, and five very ordinary players, in their front seven.

Maybe you are happy with being the 28th ranked rushing defense, I am not. This pitiful performance came with a lot of our opponents playing from behind.

+1900 yards given up at 4.7 yards a clip.

Unacceptable.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing/position/defense

 

[SteezyEndo]

All these Barron doubters. Its unacceptable, dude is going to ace it next season along with the rest.