LB eval...tell me what your thoughts are?

[ZigZagRam]

Armstrong is never going to replace Dunbar. Dunbar is a stout run defending LB. Armstrong is more similar to Ogletree in that he's going to be more of a coverage LB with the ability to blitz. He's going to be a sub-package defender in Williams' defense and if he excels as a blitzer and makes some plays in coverage, he'll have a chance to pick up a starting gig for a lesser team once he's up for free agency.

 

[ChrisW]

AS far as Armstrong, I have stated my feelings about him more times than i care to repeat on this forum, and while he may be athletically capable of improving his standing in this defense, I just don't see the maturity being there to take over the starting job.

Ray Ray grew up a lot over the course of the year. Sure, towards the beginning and into the middle he was getting called for penalties left and right. But, once the ST found a groove, he thrived. If he continues to improve on ST, you have to give him an opportunity to see what he can do on the defense.

 

[CoachO]

Ray Ray grew up a lot over the course of the year. Sure, towards the beginning and into the middle he was getting called for penalties left and right. But, once the ST found a groove, he thrived. If he continues to improve on ST, you have to give him an opportunity to see what he can do on the defense.

I get all of that. I am just of the opinion that regardless of all the love he seems to get from message board fans, the fact still remains, he is an UDFA, who is still learning a position he has never played, is STILL undersized for that position, which requires him to play it differently than someone who has the experience in that position.

Can someone please explain to me, what he has demonstrated AS A LINEBACKER to make so many think he should be starter material? He still has not demonstrated the ability to actually stay in his assigned gap, take on a blocker, and make a play. He wants to run around blocks, which takes him out of position, all under the premise of trying to make a play. It's one thing to freelance on Special Teams to make a play. It's a whole different matter playing in a disciplined scheme on DEFENSE.

He was brought in with that he would be a SPECIAL TEAMS core contributor, and that has proven to be the case. I have never seen such an outcry to make someone with his "credentials" into a folk hero, and projected "superstar".

 

[blue4]

We have safeties and corners who consider it a successful play when they line up on the right side of the field, and we're in a rush to replace proven veteran linebackers with a guy who has almost as many penalties as tackles? Just because he runs fast covering kicks? This isn't a rebuilding year.

(Disclaimer)
I reserve the right to change my mind if Ray Ray proves he can think as well as run, and Dunbar plays poorly. You guys will back me up on that right? I said Ray Ray all along right?

 

[Angry Ram]

??

They are fine. No team is perfect at every level, while one of the OLBs spots may be in question, 2 aren't.

 

[TheDYVKX]

I get all of that. I am just of the opinion that regardless of all the "love" he seems to get from message board fans, the fact still remains, he is an UDFA, who is still learning a position he has never played, is STILL undersized for that position, which requires him to play it differently than someone who has the experience in that position.

Can someone please explain to me, what he has demonstrated AS A LINEBACKER to make so many think he should be starter material? He still has not demonstrated the ability to actually stay in his assigned gap, take on a blocker, and make a play. He wants to run around blocks, which takes him out of position, all under the premise of trying to make a play. It's one thing to freelance on Special Teams to make a play. It's a whole different matter playing in a disciplined scheme on DEFENSE.

He was brought in with that he would be a SPECIAL TEAMS core contributor, and that has proven to be the case. I have never seen such an outcry to make someone with his "credentials" into a folk hero, and projected "superstar".

I know people assume Armstrong is a starting caliber LB right now, and he has certain strengths and weaknesses but he's not an every down LB, most likely sub packages to use his athleticism. They're definitely wrong that he can take over this year and you're definitely right.

With that being said, I can kind of understand their thinking. We want stars at the position, and Armstrong has the raw ability to become a star. Yes, he's a major project, but he has the ability. I think we all hope in the next FEW YEARS, not now, that Ray-Ray can develop into a starting OLB because his athleticism and playmaking ability are off the charts. If he learns how to play the position, because he is still in his 2nd year of ever playing OLB, he could be special at the position. He's been working crazy hard all offseason if you follow him on any social media, he has the desire to become the best he can be. He just has a lot to learn, he's learning a new position. His size isn't really a problem because Dunbar isn't big, in fact, Dunbar is smaller than Ray Ray. And Armstrong should continue to get bigger. Worst case scenario he's one of the best ST players in the league. Best case scenario he's a starter and a legit playmaking star for us.

I don't like how people want to replace Dunbar though. He's a beast and fits his role perfectly. He boosted our run defense tremendously. And he made plays like this:

 

[JackDRams]

I love the LBs we have. But I'm reserving my right to judge after I actually see them play together under a real DC who molds his defense around his players.

 

[jjab360]

I don't like how people want to replace Dunbar though. He's a beast and fits his role perfectly. He boosted our run defense tremendously. And he made plays like this:

Correction. He made one play like that. The rest of his plays were filled with missed tackles and pass coverage fails. Contrary to popular belief, JLD had an extremely subpar 2013, despite a stellar 2012. Who knows if he gets that step he lost after the suspension back, but right now it looks like Armstrong is poised to become the better player and possibly starter in the very near future.

 

[blue4]

I have never seen such an outcry to make someone with his "credentials" into a folk hero, and projected "superstar".

I have seen such an outcry. Austin Davis is being inducted into the HOF on Ramstalk soon. Why, any day now he'll take the field, and barring a foul up from the trainer, his jersey will not say Bradford. Sending a couple dozen vocal fans into a orgasmic frenzy.

 

[blue4]

Correction. He made one play like that. The rest of his plays were filled with missed tackles and pass coverage fails. Contrary to popular belief, JLD had an extremely subpar 2013, despite a stellar 2012. Who knows if he gets that step he lost after the suspension back, but right now it looks like Armstrong is poised to become the better player and possibly starter in the very near future.

Right now it looks like Armstrong is poised to play the 3rd and 4th quarter of preseason games. I don't see how we can say that he is poised to do anything other than that.

 

[jjab360]

I have seen such an outcry. Austin Davis is being inducted into the HOF on Ramstalk soon. Why, any day now he'll take the field, and barring a foul up from the trainer, his jersey will not say Bradford. Sending a couple dozen vocal fans into a orgasmic frenzy.

Keith Null, Thad Lewis, Jabara Williams, Greg Salas, etc. Don't get why CoachO is acting like he's never seen a preseason hero before.

 

[blue4]

Keith Null, Thad Lewis, Jabara Williams, Greg Salas, etc. Don't get why CoachO is acting like he's never seen a preseason hero before.

I must admit I briefly joined the Keith Null bandwagon. Not my finest hour.

 

[jjab360]

Right now it looks like Armstrong is poised to play the 3rd and 4th quarter of preseason games. I don't see how we can say that he is poised to do anything other than that.

This man has all the physical skills to make it, imo. Dunbar has lost a step and if it's not Armstrong overtaking him it'll probably be some other young, hungry player who is being overlooked right now. Maybe not this year, but it's coming. It should also be noted that a lot of starters start out as standout ST performers, such as Armstrong leading the team in ST tackles last year. There is precedent with similar players around the league (big time college player, elite physical skills, dissapointing senior year, turns it around in NFL) for why this kid is getting hype right now, he can do it if Williams gets him in the right mindset.

 

[blue4]

Everything you said is true. I'm only talking about for this year. I don't see it happening this year. I hope he works out, I'm not down on him at all. One thing he's proven is he will put in the work.

 

[RamsAndEwe]

Midway through Nov. 2013 the Rams linebackers were on pace to set a record for abhorrent pass coverage. Olgetree came on strong to save the Rams Linebackers from that dubious record.

I'm sure Tim Walton's receiver sieve defense had something to the Linebacker's abysmal pass coverage.
I expect Alec Olgetree to mature and refine his pass defense.

James Laurinaitis? It would seem the critics are divided. I hear JL is superior in pass coverage. Yet, how could the Rams Linebackers have been so loathsome in coverage, if James Laurinaitis is a solid pass defender? If anybody has a...Please untie this Gordon Knot conundrum ensconced inside our linebacker enigma.

Perhaps many of you remember Ray Ray Armstrong's off-season intagram photos showcasing Ray Ray's defensive back drill? This would suggest that Fisher encouraged Ray Ray to improve his pass coverage skills if he wishes to see the field more in 2014. If so, that leads us to the question- Which linebacker would Ray Ray replace in pass coverage? I suggest Ray Ray would replace Dunbar on 2nd and longs, or anytime the Rams want better linebacker pass coverage without sacrificing run support.

Dunbar?- I see Dunbar playing mainly in run support and on special Gregg Williams blitzes.

Short Story- Dunbar, Ray Ray, and a defensive back split time at the strong linebacker/ nickel back position. Olgetree and Laurinatis on the field almost entire game.

 

[CoachO]

he can do it if Williams gets him in the right mindset.

That right there is my biggest issue with all the hype. IF he has the right MINDSET!!!!! Thus far, he hasn't shown any signs of that being the case. Everything I see from this "superstar in waiting" is nothing more than a "look at me" type player who wants everyone to notice when he merely runs down the field. He doesn't even have to be the guy who makes the play, he is the first one to rip off his helmet when he gets to the sideline and start chest bumping whoever is within shouting distance.

I have said before, my "issues" with him are more about style over substance. I just don't think he can be counted on to be disciplined enough to just play the game.

 

[CoachO]

His size isn't really a problem because Dunbar isn't big, in fact, Dunbar is smaller than Ray Ray. And Armstrong should continue to get bigger.

I agree that Armstrong has the ability to get bigger. But saying Dunbar is smaller, is kind of a misconception, as it pertains to the position. Dunbar is SHORTER, but at the same listed weight as Armstrong who is 3 inches taller. That translates to having a much better base, whereas Armstrong has to be considered lanky at best. IMO, Armstrong still needs to get to the 245 range to be classified as "big enough" to play the position LIKE A LB, and not like an oversized safety, which is exactly what he is right now. Even Ogletree is bigger (thicker) than Armstrong, and he is in no way consider stout.

 

[CoachO]

I'm sure Tim Walton's receiver sieve defense had something to the Linebacker's abysmal pass coverage.
I expect Alec Olgetree to mature and refine his pass defense.

IMO, the pass defense suffered because Walton's scheme called for so much soft zone coverage. Players such as Ogletree excel in the favorable matchups in MAN Coverage. Watching him run stride for stride all thru training camp with Cook was pretty amazing. But when called to drop into a very basic soft zone, he has issues reading and diagnosing plays. The same crossing routes he was so adept at covering in man, were the ones he struggled with in zone. As you mentioned, as the season progressed, he became much more comfortable in his reads, and improved tremendously.

I wish the same could be said for the Secondary. I don't think they ever really got comfortable with all the soft zone coverages they played. I expect to see much more combination coverages this year, meaning man/zone concepts on most plays. I think you can expect much more man underneath, with safety help in zone over the top. Something they did very little of last year.

 

[Rams43]

What a great thread this has been.

Here's my thinking...

Dunbar has been okay, but can and will be upgraded in the near future. Maybe this year, maybe next year, but it will inevitably happen. We can all at least agree that he's our weakest link among the starting LB's, can't we?

Ray Ray may be the guy. Maybe this year or next.

But maybe it will be Phillip Steward or Tavarius Wilson. Or perhaps a draft pick in '15.

I understand CoachO's dismay at the Ray Ray lovefest. I kinda feel the same way about the Dunbar supporters going overboard.

This offseason I'm gonna make every effort to try not to fall in love with particular players, particularly at OLB, nickel CB, or the available starting S position. The cream will rise to the top and all will sort itself out, anyway.

I need to let the coaches do their job, in other words.