Kapersnuck-Wilson and Bradford

[SteveBrown]

I got this from another board; Signs of intelligence!

I read so frequently these days about how these two young QBs are the future and how they are about to get their well deserved $20M/Yr contracts, and how the Rams are screwed because the Seahawks have Wilson and the 9ers have Kaepernick, and I kind of shake my head.

Is there anyone here besides me that thinks that if Sam Bradford had started 2013 for the Seahawks or the 49ers, that they would have advanced exactly as far as those teams did with their current QBs?

Before you answer, consider that the 49ers and the Seahawks were dead last and second to last in passing attempts last year, and both teams had the top two defenses as well. It is just so easy to play QB under those circumstances. In view of that, and given what even most Bradford-doubters would admit is a quality Bradford possesses, namely taking care of the ball, and I submit that if Bradford had played for either of these two teams he would enjoy being celebrated right now as a perennial pro bowler instead of a guy that some (although not many here) that is playing for his professional life next year.

In the Playoffs, Wilson's passing numbers were 103 yards, 215 yards, and 206 yards. Kaepernick's passing numbers numbers in the playoffs were 103 yards, 215 yards, and 206 yards. Maybe I am just too much of a Bradford fan, but you can't convince me that Sam couldn't have achieved those same numbers, and probably would have exceeded those numbers.

Sam wasn't drafted by the 49ers or the Seahawks, and so he'll have to do it the hard way. I think he will. I think he will be the 2014 Comeback Player of the Year by a good margin, and he will be in consideration for the MVP. That's how much faith I have in Sam this year. And after this year, Sam will sign an extension that will keep him in St. Louis for a long time. Who's with me???

 

[Alan]

SteveBrown with a what if:
Is there anyone here besides me that thinks that if Sam Bradford had started 2013 for the Seahawks or the 49ers, that they would have advanced exactly as far as those teams did with their current QBs?

Yes and no. Yes for the Seahags and no for the Whiners. The Seahags would still have won the SB and the Whiners would have beat the Seahags. Sam is better than both of them. Especially Kapernoodle.

 

[Rams and Gators]

Yes and no. Yes for the Seahags and no for the Whiners. The Seahags would still have won the SB and the Whiners would have beat the Seahags. Sam is better than both of them. Especially Kapernoodle.

Crap-on-Dick sure, Wilson hell no, if you offered me a Wilson for Sam trade straight up I'd ask if I've got to throw in the number 2 pick as well.

 

[Alan]

Rams and Gators posting with terminal velocity:
Crap-on-Dick sure, Wilson hell no, if you offered me a Wilson for Sam trade straight up I'd ask if I've got to throw in the number 2 pick as well.

 

[jrry32]

Crap-on-Dick sure, Wilson hell no, if you offered me a Wilson for Sam trade straight up I'd ask if I've got to throw in the number 2 pick as well.

I wouldn't. I respect the hell out of Wilson. I think he's a very good young QB with a bright future. But I wouldn't consider trading Bradford and the #2 pick for him. I think if you swapped Bradford and Wilson...Wilson would be the QB that appeared "solid" and Bradford would be the Pro Bowl QB.

It's very favorable for a QB to work off a strong running game and defense as a game manager. In fact, get ready to have your mind blown. Sam Bradford's play-action passing stats after Zac Stacy took over as starting HB:
3 games
18/22
81.8%
272 yards
12.4 YPA
5 TDs
1 Int
138.8 QB Rating

Those are absolutely ridiculous numbers.

Here are the full season numbers for Wilson and Kaepernick:
Kaepernick
82/142
57.7%
1142 yards
8.0 YPA
12 TDs
3 Ints
103.1 QB Rating

Wilson
90/164
54.9%
1429 yards
8.7 YPA
13 TDs
3 Ints
102.9 QB Rating

Bradford
34/52
65.4%
506 yards
9.7 YPA
6 TDs
3 Ints
111.5 QB Rating

I don't think it's a stretch to believe that Bradford could do quite well with the supporting casts that Kaepernick and Wilson have.

 

[Rams and Gators]

I wouldn't. I respect the hell out of Wilson. I think he's a very good young QB with a bright future. But I wouldn't consider trading Bradford and the #2 pick for him. I think if you swapped Bradford and Wilson...Wilson would be the QB that appeared "solid" and Bradford would be the Pro Bowl QB.

It's very favorable for a QB to work off a strong running game and defense as a game manager. In fact, get ready to have your mind blown. Sam Bradford's play-action passing stats after Zac Stacy took over as starting HB:
3 games
18/22
81.8%
272 yards
12.4 YPA
5 TDs
1 Int
138.8 QB Rating

Those are absolutely ridiculous numbers.

Here are the full season numbers for Wilson and Kaepernick:
Kaepernick
82/142
57.7%
1142 yards
8.0 YPA
12 TDs
3 Ints
103.1 QB Rating

Wilson
90/164
54.9%
1429 yards
8.7 YPA
13 TDs
3 Ints
102.9 QB Rating

Bradford
34/52
65.4%
506 yards
9.7 YPA
6 TDs
3 Ints
111.5 QB Rating

I don't think it's a stretch to believe that Bradford could do quite well with the supporting casts that Kaepernick and Wilson have.

If you take Wilson's best 3 game stretch how do they compare?

 

[jrry32]

If you take Wilson's best 3 game stretch how do they compare?

That ignores the context of the situation. I didn't randomly pick a 3 game stretch. I picked the 3 games where Bradford actually had a running game. Which is pretty important when it comes to the play-action pass.

This would be it for Wilson:
3 games(Week 10, 11, and 13...12 was a bye)
13/22
59.1%
237 yards
10.8 YPA
4 TDs
0 Ints
135.8 QB Rating

Coincidentally, same number of attempts as Bradford over those 3 games.

 

[Alan]

54.9% and 57.7% completion rates suck no matter how you look at it.

In no way do I like these QBs. Wilson seems like a nice guy but who cares.

BTW @jrry32, those aren't Kapernoodle's and Wilson's full season stats.

These are:
Wilson 16th rated
257/407 25 passes per game
63.1%
3,357 yards
8.25 YPA
26 TDs
9 Ints
101.2 QB Rating

Kaepernoodle 20th rated
243/416 26 passes per game
58.4%
3,197 yards
7.69 YPA
21 TDs
8 Ints
91.6 QB Rating

Among the top 20 QBs (not counting Kapernoodle and Wilson), only Cam Newton (473) and RGIII (456) threw less than 500 times last season. I'll pass on having Trent Dilfer as my QB thank you.

 

[jrry32]

54.9% and 57.7% completion rates suck no matter how you look at it.

In no way do I like these QBs. Wilson seems like a nice guy but who cares.

BTW @jrry32, those aren't Kapernoodle's and Wilson's full season stats.

These are:
Wilson 16th rated
257/407 25 passes per game
63.1%
3,357 yards
8.25 YPA
26 TDs
9 Ints
101.2 QB Rating

Kaepernoodle 20th rated
243/416 26 passes per game
58.4%
3,197 yards
7.69 YPA
21 TDs
8 Ints
91.6 QB Rating

Among the top 20 QBs (not counting Kapernoodle and Wilson), only Cam Newton (473) and RGIII (456) threw less than 500 times last season. I'll pass on having Trent Dilfer as my QB thank you.

Those are their full season PLAY-ACTION passing stats.

 

[Alan]

rry32 with this head scratcher:
Those are their full season PLAY-ACTION passing stats.

You lost me here bro. Splain please.

 

[Tron]

http://ramblinfan.com/2014/01/02/sam-bradfords-2013-season-projections-vs-2013-season-leaders/

Good article on "if" Bradford had stayed healthy.

 

[max]

There are 2 open questions that remain on Bradford.

1. Can he avoid the avoidable season ending hits?
2. Has he developed bad habits (from the poor situation he had been put in over the past 4 years) that are beyond fixing?

I don't believe we will know the answers to these questions definitively until this season is over.

So until this season is over I am reserving my opinion on any comparisons to other QBs.

 

[Rams and Gators]

That ignores the context of the situation. I didn't randomly pick a 3 game stretch. I picked the 3 games where Bradford actually had a running game. Which is pretty important when it comes to the play-action pass.

This would be it for Wilson:
3 games(Week 10, 11, and 13...12 was a bye)
13/22
59.1%
237 yards
10.8 YPA
4 TDs
0 Ints
135.8 QB Rating

Coincidentally, same number of attempts as Bradford over those 3 games.

True, but you're assuming a causal link, if that link is truly causal then that's awesome, we should expect the same next season, if the reason for the three games was because it's possible for any of the 16 best QBs in the NFL to have an elite 3 game stretch then it's not quite as good.

 

[CGI_Ram]

Kaeperdick isn't even in the conversation with me.

I'll be honest, I think Wilson is good, but I'm not convinced he can consistently win games when it's on his arm to do it. I don't think his ability to read the field is as advanced as people give credit.

Sam's only question for me is his ability to stay healthy. He's my QB.

 

[BigRamFan]

There are 2 open questions that remain on Bradford.

1. Can he avoid the avoidable season ending hits?
2. Has he developed bad habits (from the poor situation he had been put in over the past 4 years) that are beyond fixing?

I don't believe we will know the answers to these questions definitively until this season is over.

So until this season is over I am reserving my opinion on any comparisons to other QBs.

Max -- this begs to question. Do you believe either of the injuries he suffered were "avoidable hits" and, specifically, what "bad habits"?

 

[max]

Max -- this begs to question. Do you believe either of the injuries he suffered were "avoidable hits" and, specifically, what "bad habits"?

I believe that a more nimble QB could have avoided getting hit the way Bradford got hit when he tore his ACL. Sam was running to the sideline and did a pump fake which slowed him down a bit, then he tried to get out of bounds before getting getting hit but exposed the back of his legs. That doesn't happen to a guy like Russell Wilson. Wilson is slippery as heck; Bradford is the furthest thing from slippery that you will see at the QB position since Drew Bledsoe.

As far as his bad habits, they were talked about by Mike Martz, who said Sam developed some bad habits because of his poor protection and bad receivers. So this is not a new issue. Sam has had some problems with his accuracy, notably in the Dallas game and especially in the SF game. Fisher had said that Sams footwork was getting better, so you wonder how the ACL will affect that.

 

[Ramrasta]

I believe that a more nimble QB could have avoided getting hit the way Bradford got hit when he tore his ACL. Sam was running to the sideline and did a pump fake which slowed him down a bit, then he tried to get out of bounds before getting getting hit but exposed the back of his legs. That doesn't happen to a guy like Russell Wilson. Wilson is slippery as heck; Bradford is the furthest thing from slippery that you will see at the QB position since Drew Bledsoe.

As far as his bad habits, they were talked about by Mike Martz, who said Sam developed some bad habits because of his poor protection and bad receivers. So this is not a new issue. Sam has had some problems with his accuracy, notably in the Dallas game and especially in the SF game. Fisher had said that Sams footwork was getting better, so you wonder how the ACL will affect that.

I don't know that it was necessarily "bad habits" when Sam pump faked and ran out of bounds. I think it was more along the lines of a douche move that Mike Mitchell had a diving shove at Bradford's back just to push him in the direction he was already going and celebrating the play after the injury like he did something special. That type of trash can happen to any QB and I hate that it happened to the best one in the NFC West.

 

[mr.stlouis]

Crap-on-Dick sure, Wilson hell no, if you offered me a Wilson for Sam trade straight up I'd ask if I've got to throw in the number 2 pick as well.

Aw. Hell. No.

I wouldn't trade Weak arm Wilson for Sam. Why give them the better and a second round. You'd ask that while bending over and grabbing your ankles... with a smile.

 

[max]

I don't know that it was necessarily "bad habits" when Sam pump faked and ran out of bounds. I think it was more along the lines of a douche move that Mike Mitchell had a diving shove at Bradford's back just to push him in the direction he was already going and celebrating the play after the injury like he did something special. That type of trash can happen to any QB and I hate that it happened to the best one in the NFC West.

The NFL is full of douche bag moves, some QBs are better than others at avoiding them. Bradford obviously hasn't shown that he is one that can. It's called awareness. Just watch Wilson, the guy just has it. Tarkenton had it. Those kind of guys make defenders look silly when they try their douche bag moves.

 

[RaminExile]

I believe that a more nimble QB could have avoided getting hit the way Bradford got hit when he tore his ACL. Sam was running to the sideline and did a pump fake which slowed him down a bit, then he tried to get out of bounds before getting getting hit but exposed the back of his legs. That doesn't happen to a guy like Russell Wilson. Wilson is slippery as heck; Bradford is the furthest thing from slippery that you will see at the QB position since Drew Bledsoe.

As far as his bad habits, they were talked about by Mike Martz, who said Sam developed some bad habits because of his poor protection and bad receivers. So this is not a new issue. Sam has had some problems with his accuracy, notably in the Dallas game and especially in the SF game. Fisher had said that Sams footwork was getting better, so you wonder how the ACL will affect that.

Have to disagree with that Max (the ACL injury). It was an absolute freak accident that could have happened to anyone. Bradford wasn't trying to be elusive - he was just getting out of bounds and was very nearly out when Munnerlyn brought him down and his cleat just got stuck in the turf.

EDIT;

The concern I have for Bradford and for the future of this franchise is over his health next year. I hope to god we don't rush him back before he's ready a la RGME because look how that ended. QB's need their non throwing leg to provide stability and ACL injuries can cause havoc if their not properly healed.

Add in to this the characteristics of our quarterback - he's not the most agile or elusive QB in the pocket is he - he kind of just stands there or turtles up. A stiff ACL is not going to help this and we saw how bad Sam was when he was still suffering from the high ankle sprain in 2011. I think he needs to be fully healthy to be successful and I just hope that is going to be the case.